The East Roman "Nicomedine" Empire –

A Nicomedia based ERE would not have survived, these invasions, if they occurred:

  • A) The 5th century Volkswanderung

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • E) Medieval West European invasions

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • H) Anatolian Turkish invasions in the 14th century or later

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    32

raharris1973

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What if Constantine established Nicomedia in Asia Minor as his capital?

A couple years ago somebody proposed a plausible way it could happen, but didn't get much response:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=238930&highlight=nicomedia

Constantine founds Constantinople at Nicomedia, not Byzantium

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Constantine chose to found his new capital at Byzantium because it was relatively near the place he defeated Licinius. However, according to the book I'm reading it wasn't a good place to found a large-scale city due to water supply problems.

So, what does he do? He takes advantage that Licinius and the other Tetrarchs had built up Nicomedia to some extent. He decides to appropriate the other Tetrarchs' work as his own (similar to what he did in Rome for Maxentius) and turn Nicomedia into Constantinople. In addition to using an existing city, he can flaunt the fact that he had overthrown the city's previous masters.

Constantine installs all of the monuments and buildings he put in Byzantium and soon Nicomedia grows by leaps and bounds to the sizes Byzantium achieved IOTL at the same time. How does history develop from there?

Would “Nicomedine”, rather than “Byzantine” be a modern word to describe devious and complex politics?

How else is the ERE changed?

Most importantly, is the ERE’s longevity affected? (related poll attached)

Poll:

A Nicomedia based ERE would not have survived, these invasions, if they occurred:

A) The 5th century Volkswanderung
B) The Persian and Avar (or other northern) Wars
C) Arab invasions
D) 11th-12th century Turkic invasions
E) Medieval West European invasions
F) Mongol invasions
G) Timurid – or Timurid-like invasions
H) Anatolian Turkish invasions in the 14th century or later
I) No reason the Nicomedine empire wouldn’t survive as long as OTL’s Byzantine

There's an implicit 10th option "how do we know if any of this would happen, I can't speak intelligently about the odds"---but, even if true, it's basically tantamount to decision not to play.
 
I see no reason why a Nicomedian Empire is less successful than a Byzantine one.
If anything it should make it easier as all things being equal it would be more difficult for the Crusaders to take
 
I see no reason why a Nicomedian Empire is less successful than a Byzantine one.
If anything it should make it easier as all things being equal it would be more difficult for the Crusaders to take

But it would be a hell of a lot easier for Persians and Arabs to take...
 
Everything from B to H could have destroyed it, or, under different circumstances, it could have handled them all and prospered. So not sure what to vote for...
 

raharris1973

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Hey Magnum - pretty sure the Goths, Huns, Alans or Germans of option A) the volkswanderung that ended the WRE, could not pull it off?
 
Hey Magnum - pretty sure the Goths, Huns, Alans or Germans of option A) the volkswanderung that ended the WRE, could not pull it off?

I'm pretty sure, since these failed to take down the ERE OTL, given it's superior weatlh, urbanization and population compared to the WRE. These factors would not change if there was no Constantinople. At best, the Goths would establish themselves in the Balkans and never leave - the ERE had enough resources to construct a decent enough navy to keep any and all Barbarians on the other side of the Hellespont
 

raharris1973

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If the Muslims did take Constantinople either in the 600s or 700s AD, how much further in the Balkans would they have gone?

HG Wells speculated that had the Muslims concentrated on Constantinople and won, nothing after Constantinople would have stopped them, and the pagan Slavs, Avars, Bulgars and maybe even Saxons would have converted to Islam.

But that touches on a problem with conversions of these tribal peoples and empires to Islam, that in Omayyad and Abbasid times non-Muslim rulers could not just "convert" their domains. Conversions were only considered genuine if they subjected themselves to Caliphal political rule, at least that's how this poster described it:

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John7755 يوحنا John7755 يوحنا is offline
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I doubt that the Khazars would convert to Islam within the timeframe, mainly do to the facts of Abbasid influence and would be more likely to convert to Orthodox Christianity. At this time the Arab caliphates (Abbasid and Umayyad) would claim sovereignty over all believers and would fight to force the said believer to join the caliphate, it was only till the Turks cane on the scene plus enormous social upheaval (Shia and Khawarij revolts) did the Caliph stop this policy. At the same time Byzantium did not claim such power and attempt to gain it, this is shown through the example of Russia, which would be an example of how Khazaria would look.

So in short, the Khazara wished to keep themselves independent from both polities (hince conversion to Judaism) but if he has to choose they would either stay Tengri or would have a Russian style conversion to Christianity.
So this would seem to indicate that, at least until the Abbasid decline (late 800s, or 900s or 1000s) even an Islamic empire that had taken Constantinople limited its prospects for converting large territories to the north of the Mediterranean, because self-respecting Avar, Bulgar, Magyar and Rus khagans, would be opposed to converting as it meant giving up their temporal authority.

So then the Muslims after Constantinople would only convert populations that they literally conquered themselves. So effectively this might mean southern Thrace and and the Aegean littoral, with people's to the north clinging to paganism, or still becoming Christian (or perhaps going for the Khazar Judaism approach) for a lengthy interval before local rulers would feel comfortable converting to Islam.

Excluding conversions of the states set up by the steppe or norse nomads, how much of the Balkans would the Arab Caliphate be able to conquer and how much would it even be able to conquer. Are the Danube, Morava and Drina rivers actually a stretch?
 
Given that Nicomedia isn't as strategically positioned as Constantinople and isn't as defensible, I don't predict good things.
 
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