The eagle's left head

I hardly see eastern Sicily ( and Calabria ) supplanting the rich cities of northern Italy as the cradle of the Renaissance (with their connections both with the east (Byzantium and Muslim countries and with northern Europe, let us remember that the concepts of capitalism and banking were born here)
Yeah there's no doubt this would be one of the consequences of Vatatzes Sicily. I could see a majority of the Latin speaking peasantry convert too, considering greek was seen as just as prestigious as Italian, and there'd be a government to encourage conversion to speaking Greek.

I could see Vatatzes Sicily gaining ideas of the banking system from Northern Europe, they have to compete against many rivals after all, and I could see a two house system develop too, which would be very interesting.
it is more probable that it is one of the main places where it develops, surely we will see in northern Italy being more centered on the study of Latin as opposed to the south which reads and studies Greek, certainly the concept of Italianness (already in vogue in the fourteenth century) will stop here in Naples
I think Italy would just be seen as a place, and Naples and Sicily would deny an Italian national consciousness that would entail the conquest and Latinification of Naples and Sicily. There is no way the heartlands of the new Vatatzes realms would agree to it.
 
Yeah there's no doubt this would be one of the consequences of Vatatzes Sicily. I could see a majority of the Latin speaking peasantry convert too, considering greek was seen as just as prestigious as Italian, and there'd be a government to encourage conversion to speaking Greek.

I could see Vatatzes Sicily gaining ideas of the banking system from Northern Europe, they have to compete against many rivals after all, and I could see a two house system develop too, which would be very interesting.

I think Italy would just be seen as a place, and Naples and Sicily would deny an Italian national consciousness that would entail the conquest and Latinification of Naples and Sicily. There is no way the heartlands of the new Vatatzes realms would agree to it.
Naples will be difficult to Greekize again but from Caserta on down I see Greek returning to being the main language, How easy it will be to consider the peninsula no longer the same place (I see the concept of two proto-nations being born, one of Lombard and Latin origin (Campania included) the other of Greek and Orthodox origin, a bit like with the South Slavs situation. we need to see what role they will have in the Ghibelline wars in the north (perhaps we see the formation of a pro-Ghibelline faction with a Byzantine tendency (in contrast to the normal one that looks in HRE, similar to the split between black and white Guelphs) however the Vatatzes can try to carve out a state for a cadet branch in the north (due to descendants of Frederick II)
 
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Naples will be difficult to Greekize again but from Caserta on down I see Greek returning to being the main language
I see it as a French like scenario where the Occitan speakers get gradually replaced by Greek speakers, especially when the black death sweeps in and Greeks from Anatolia and occupied hellas flee to Italy.
 
I see it as a French like scenario where the Occitan speakers get gradually replaced by Greek speakers, especially when the black death sweeps in and Greeks from Anatolia and occupied hellas flee to Italy.
yes, but Naples didn't suffer the plague (because otherwise the entire peninsula must have changed its language) it will be easier where the language is less rooted and this is from Caserta downwards (Naples and surroundings are too latinized (large population, That's why Spanish didn't supplant the language even though it was more used by the state ), it would be like trying to make the city of Rome itself speak Greek. moreover the connections with Tuscany and Lazio do not facilitate the task, instead Calabria, Puglia and Sicily are closer to the place of origin of the reigning dynasty, they were also the last lands controlled by the Eastern Romans and have a population autochthonous of Greeks still existing very numerous
 
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yes, but Naples didn't suffer the plague (because otherwise the entire peninsula must have changed its language) it will be easier where the language is less rooted and this is from Caserta downwards (Naples and surroundings are too latinized (large population), it would be like trying to make the city of Rome itself speak Greek.
Depending on how hard the government tries,it could be done.
 
Depending on how hard the government tries,it could be done.
at least let me finish writing the comment please, eh no I disagree ( because by the same reasoning the netherlands and parts of Italy should have spoken spanish and we don't ) furthermore those regions are also multicultural (with Muslims and Latinos) so their assimilation can change the balance, in Campania there are not many populations different from those of Latin origin instead
 
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at least let me finish writing the comment please, eh no I disagree ( because by the same reasoning the netherlands and parts of Italy should have spoken spanish and we don't )
Cause they DIDN’T impose the language. Look at how France imposed education in French on it’s conquered territories in the European mainland? The original languages of those areas are now under threat of being extinguished.
 
Cause they DIDN’T impose the language. Look at how France imposed education in French on it’s conquered territories in the European mainland? The original languages of those areas are now under threat of being extinguished.
but they were at least similar languages ( all of more or less Romance origin ) but here we are talking about replacing a language of the absolute majority of the population ( also useful for exchanges with other Italian cities ) with a language of a minority ( for the Neapolitans at least ) moreover to their eyes heretical at worst, moreover, the French assimilation derives from a historical behavior of that state (very centralizing) and from the technologies and institutions of the 19th century that do not exist in the 13th
 
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but they were at least similar languages ( all of more or less Romance origin ) but here we are talking about replacing a language of the absolute majority of the population ( also useful for exchanges with other Italian cities ) with a language of a minority ( for the Neapolitans at least ) moreover to their eyes heretical at worst
Neither Alsatian or Breton were Romance in origin but the French have almost destroyed both languages.
 
Neither Alsatian or Breton were Romance in origin but the French have almost destroyed both languages.
yes, but those were also submerged by the numbers of Romance speakers (once the difference between langue d'oc and d'oil was destroyed, France had many French to submerge those places) but that doesn't mean they're still there, that's why I say that the Hellenization process must take place in the old Byzantine catepanate ( of which Naples was excluded because of the Lombard duchies ).
 
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yes, but those were also submerged by the numbers of Romance speakers (once the difference between langue d'oc and d'oil was destroyed, France had many French to submerge those places) but that doesn't mean they're still there, that's why I say that the Hellenization process must take place in the old Byzantine catepanate ( of which Naples was excluded because of the Lombard duchies )
They were destroyed partly but not primarily because of being submerged. It was the establishment of the mass education system in French that did them in. So there, it’s a matter of how much the government tries.
 
They were destroyed partly but not primarily because of being submerged. It was the establishment of the mass education system in French that did them in. So there, it’s a matter of how much the government tries.
and how does the state here destroy them if the modern state thought itself is yet to be born? it would be crazy if the despot went against a potentially friendly population (just because they don't speak the right language), he will be content to keep them quiet since his main interest is Sicily (his area of power)
 
and how does the state here destroy them if the modern state thought itself is yet to be born? it would be crazy if the despot went against a potentially friendly population (just because they don't speak the right language), he will be content to keep them quiet since his main interest is Sicily (his area of power)
It will be a slower process, but to trade with the rest of the kingdom and be a part of the government, the people beginning with the nobles and merchants will learn Greek. Plus if Southern Italy has it’s own Renaissance centre, people would be encouraged to get education and work closer to home than to travel to Northern Italy. There are plenty of Greeks around in the Kingdom, so they either pick up the language or risk getting sidelined.
 
It will be a slower process, but to trade with the rest of the kingdom and be a part of the government, the people beginning with the nobles and merchants will learn Greek. Plus if Southern Italy has it’s own Renaissance centre, people would be encouraged to get education and work closer to home than to travel to Northern Italy. There are plenty of Greeks around in the Kingdom, so they either pick up the language or risk getting sidelined.
I could see the collapse of the ere push a lot of people from the peasantry to the elites to flee to the realm of the vatatzes realm get the century and be the majority in Southern Naples and the eastern strip of Sicily at least.

Then we'd get population growth and the barons slaughtering the peasantry which could allow for the immigrated Greeks to replace the Lombard population.

Not to mention that the language of government and trade is Greek, and the Lombards often lived next to Greeks so they'd know the language, and if we get a lower freedmen council we could see the Lombards use Greek for communication with their Greek and more prestigious counterparts.

I'd still feel neapolis and the north would be majority Lombard until the 19th century where central schooling kicks off and you have a generation of youngsters who speak Greek who are moving to the cities and would mix with ppl of different origins whose common language is Greek.
 
I could see the collapse of the ere push a lot of people from the peasantry to the elites to flee to the realm of the vatatzes realm get the century and be the majority in Southern Naples and the eastern strip of Sicily at least.

Then we'd get population growth and the barons slaughtering the peasantry which could allow for the immigrated Greeks to replace the Lombard population.

Not to mention that the language of government and trade is Greek, and the Lombards often lived next to Greeks so they'd know the language, and if we get a lower freedmen council we could see the Lombards use Greek for communication with their Greek and more prestigious counterparts.

I'd still feel neapolis and the north would be majority Lombard until the 19th century where central schooling kicks off and you have a generation of youngsters who speak Greek who are moving to the cities and would mix with ppl of different origins whose common language is Greek.
I, on the other hand, see Naples more as a border area between the Romance or Italian language and the area with a Greek majority (because I don't see how you think, that you can replace the population of the fourth largest city in Italy at the time, with a university prestigious of its own (without the need to go far), moreover the papacy itself (it does not matter if its figure is weakened no pope allows the city that from the south paves the way towards Rome to be in the hands of heretics) all right we are not d 'I agree, that's the beauty of discussions, so ok
 
I wonder what will be the impact of the Vatatzes/Lascarid administration in Sicily on the birth/rise of Cosa Nostra. A tradition of a state which supports much more its small landowners than Italy in OTL could leave less breathing room for Mafia/Cosa Nostra to develop.
 
I wonder what will be the impact of the Vatatzes/Lascarid administration in Sicily on the birth/rise of Cosa Nostra. A tradition of a state which supports much more its small landowners than Italy in OTL could leave less breathing room for Mafia/Cosa Nostra to develop.
However Mafia was initially developed more in the western part of Sicily. So it remains to be seen if Vatatzes and his successors will extend their rule to all of Sicily or not.
 
Speaking of the changed circumstances, this is a sniper from Laiou's book on Andronikos' Foreign Policy "Constantinople and the Latins"


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In contrast to OTL, the potential rebels in Crete have the example of their fellow Cretans that followed Philanthropenos west. They know that their countrymen got lands and honors in Sicily. If Kallergis doesn't want to lead another revolt, then they might try their lack with offering their service to Vatatzes.

On the matter of naval power, Pachymeres says that when the Venetians sent 13 galleys and 7 pirate ships against Constantinople in the summer of 1302, there were no warships to oppose them. Apparently the handful of warships remaining were somewhere else.
 
I mean, Greek doesn't need to supplant Italian dialects. Being the Language of Court is good enough, esp. taking into account how rooted regional languages still are in Italy. Greek and Latin being the tongues of the Roman Empire will win over many Renaissance artists.
 
I mean, Greek doesn't need to supplant Italian dialects. Being the Language of Court is good enough, esp. taking into account how rooted regional languages still are in Italy. Greek and Latin being the tongues of the Roman Empire will win over many Renaissance artists.
I think Greek will supplant Latin dialects long term because of the language being the language of court and due to the average peasant being more involved in politics means using Greek is a better way of communicating compared to using their own dialect.

I think the death knell would be a proper education system, but before then I think Greek won't be the majority language in the northern bits of Naples and neapolis itself.
 
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