The eagle's left head

[galileo-034]

Speaking of the Black Death, if they're smart enough, the Lascarids might use it for propaganda purposes. For example, "The Pope sanctioned war against the defender of Christianity, so God sent His punishment to Earth."

The main problem is that the Black Death will strike the Despotate before it does the Angevins. It still comes from the Black Sea through Constantinople and the Aegean.
The chances are the Angevins catch while besieging Lascarid cities. Epidemics are bad enough for armies during a siege ...

 

[Asasyn13]

The main problem is that the Black Death will strike the Despotate before it does the Angevins. It still comes from the Black Sea through Constantinople and the Aegean.
The chances are the Angevins catch while besieging Lascarid cities. Epidemics are bad enough for armies during a siege ...

Er... And wasn't it said in one of the previous chapters that the lands of the Despotate were prepared for this? That they have any plans or procedures in case of an epidemic outbreak and a culture of people being clean?

 

[Asasyn13]

Thats a good point. I got 2 opinions to your question:
1.From what I read (on wikipedia, not a good source), the popes have viewed Italy as their sphere of influence and even more when it was stated the Kingdom of Sicily was a papal subject. And from you suggest, it seems to me that those kind of diplomacy would feel like actually acknowledging that the Lascarids as a semi-independent state and not a subject/vassal, as you could just order a vassal to do stuff(though actually having them doing said stuff is another story), not negotiate with them.

2. I just remembered that the timing of this whole aggressive and sure to be denied diplomacy is kinda suspicious. Sounds more like the Pope and Charles III were looking for more reasons/casus belli to seize the entire despotate.After all Charles III only technically has the claim to achea, but using such an aggressive move which they know will be rejected gives the Pope a reason to ,I dunno ,maybe give the kingdom to someone who just happens to need reasons to seize more of the despotate.

In my opinion, overtly aggressive behavior is too strange anyway. Popes in this period, at least in my opinion, should be more diplomatic. I.e. first try to subjugate the Despotate with words, and not immediately with deeds. Not to mention the fact that it causes some inconsistency. In the north of Italy they support the division into smaller states according to the principle of "divide and rule", and in the south they support the creation of one large state? As far as I know, they did things differently in OTL.

 

[Quinkana]

I just remembered that the timing of this whole aggressive and sure to be denied diplomacy is kinda suspicious. Sounds more like the Pope and Charles III were looking for more reasons/casus belli to seize the entire despotate.After all Charles III only technically has the claim to achea, but using such an aggressive move which they know will be rejected gives the Pope a reason to ,I dunno ,maybe give the kingdom to someone who just happens to need reasons to seize more of the despotate.

The Lascarids have no qualms in fighting and taking some lands from the Angevins too, considering Basilicata and Aquila (which are Tarantine lands) and maybe Campania to not deal with fully occupying Naples. There is considerable risk and reward here for both Charles and Theodore.

I just wonder if Andrew will even be murdered as per otl. If he does get murdered, I expect it to be a quick war, but if Andrew's allowed to live till near the end of the war the whole thing could be a slog. Considering the fact that its more a conquest of all Lascarid lands, I don't think Achaea will be touched too, so things would be very interesting in general.

More importantly, the claims Henry was making were incorrect, if Theodore is remaining true to the terms of reconciliation of Lyons which seems to be the case from what we have been told previously. The pope should be fine with celebrating in Greek rite as opposed to Latin because it was acknowledged to be a legitimate form at the Council. I could see an an issue with the tithe being problematic, nothing a little diplomacy couldn't handle, I actually thought that was how the situation was going to go down: clever negotiating and a interesting back-and-forth not a flat no.
Honestly, the Pope should be proclaiming the success of Union with the Despotate everywhere as a successful reunion and should handle them with care, as it would be easy for them to flip back to Constantinople but with Theodore technically in Rome's camp, he has an in with the Greeks, a Greek state that aligns with Rome, proving the Latins aren't a hateful foreign rite of heretics holds a lot of pull.

I think the only reason why that's happening in the first place is that the Tarantines want a caucus belli to fight, and I think the Lascarids will have their supporters in general, since the Lascarid response could be seen as a forerunner of rulers asserting their power over the papacy.

In my opinion, overtly aggressive behavior is too strange anyway. Popes in this period, at least in my opinion, should be more diplomatic. I.e. first try to subjugate the Despotate with words, and not immediately with deeds. Not to mention the fact that it causes some inconsistency. In the north of Italy they support the division into smaller states according to the principle of "divide and rule", and in the south they support the creation of one large state? As far as I know, they did things differently in OTL.

It's probably bc the pope is under Charles' control. The last few popes were pro angevin and I'd not be surprised if this one is too.

 

[Quinkana]

Ps wait Andrew is made duke of Calabria? Hmm, I do think Charles is trying to keep Andrew alive for the political benefit. Considering Joanna did bully Andrew tho that would be interesting in it of itself.

 

[galileo-034]

Er... And wasn't it said in one of the previous chapters that the lands of the Despotate were prepared for this? That they have any plans or procedures in case of an epidemic outbreak and a culture of people being clean?

That they were better prepared to deal with it, indeed.
However, from a religious propaganda point of view, that does not change who has been hit first. You'll probably hear more about the Greeks being the source of that evil plague and colluding with the Devil than it being god's punition for Angevin attacking the Despotate.

EDIT : ... wrote he in the 6th post of the 66th page of the TL...

 

[ZakiBadawi]

Er... And wasn't it said in one of the previous chapters that the lands of the Despotate were prepared for this? That they have any plans or procedures in case of an epidemic outbreak and a culture of people being clean?

I think a centralized state with some notion of public hygiene like the Despotate could have a chance to limit the scale of the bleeding, but nothing is going to save cities line Messina, Catania and Syracuse from mass deaths. After all, unless the butterflies make the plague appear outside of Sicily first, the first news of a plague appearing in Europe is going to be when people start dying en masse in those very cities.

From my understanding, one of the main cause of the spread of the disease was urban dwellers fleeing the cities, who were hotbed of contagion, and bringing the plague across rural land, one of the potentially most effective mesure the Despotate could take is immediately condemn the cities through a strict quarantine, which could save the rural land but would be devastating for their own economy. It requires very decisive actions that could be out of character for a 14th century ruler.

 

[Lascaris]

Alexios Philantropenos

We are not entirely certain when he died in OTL. Not earlier than 1340. And I would add that OTL he got blinded and apparently imprisoned for 30 years. That cannot have been good on his health. So if he lived at least to 70 and likely more OTL, its reasonable to expect he lives longer TTL.

Not that anything, but can the papacy finally expect a pope sufficiently skillful and politically flexible, who will see that it is better to start fraternizing with the Despotate? Because so far, somehow, the Church's superiors have not shown the great wisdom in diplomacy that they were supposed to have back then.

Clement VI IS skillful. That said we are talking about the fellow who as soon as he became pope created 10 new cardinals. Three were his nephews, one his cousin, four more French, with most of the Frenchmen coming from his region. For good measure when in 1344 2 cardinals had to be replaced both were French and among them was a fourth nephew. So we have a capable strongly nepotistic fellow who is a creature of the French crown which is strongly tied to the house of Anjou and its Tarentine branch. And who like his predecessors has direct strong ties to the Neapolitan Angevins as well, Avignon is Angevin land for example. Call me a cynic but a pope of the French/Angevin payroll will act as someone in said payroll. Particularly if he stands to gain.

Too be fair, in my opinion having 'catholic'greeks right so close next door who arent bowing down to their authority (and also giving money) is quite unnerving. So what better way to deal with this unruly vassal/subject/neighbour than to replace them with another one that is catholic, giving them money and at least acknowledging their authority. To be fraternizing with the Despostate or at least acknowledging they are here to stay is to concede that the Despotate is no longer their subject/vassal/within their sphere of influence, and the popes cant have that.

Well the papacy has actually good reasons to want the Lascarids gone. They are suspect, not without reason, for Ghibelline sympathies, are borderline schismatics, the Basilians were not being looked at very well by the church in OTL, without having the political power they have TTL and of course the despotate is for every practical reason an independent state in what the popes consider their own bailiwick. Not a good combination even forgetting Syracuse is not paying money at a time popes take this... seriously.

 

[galileo-034]

We are not entirely certain when he died in OTL. Not earlier than 1340. And I would add that OTL he got blinded and apparently imprisoned for 30 years. That cannot have been good on his health. So if he lived at least to 70 and likely more OTL, its reasonable to expect he lives longer TTL.

So, one last war for the Belisarius of his time...
I can't wait what he has up his sleeve for the Angevins.

 

[Lascaris]

How strong the Tarentines are ? Here is a map with the Principality of Taranto holdings in 1399 under Orsini. I am not sure how different the holdings would have been for Philip when the Principality was refounded. Gravina would not have been a tarentine fief for sure. Neither the holding near Nola that was an old orsini fief. They wouldn't have Bari either. Philip (and presumably his heir Robert) had Bisceglie (the fief east of Trani). In general, I would expect that basically all the Terra ti Otranto belongs to the Tarentines and Brienne.

No idea. As a rule of thumb I'm estimating the three branches of the family hold roughly 30% of the kingdom directly, for the rest Charles III should be much better able to get feudal duties than his daughter OTL but still serving for 40-60 days a year or paying the equivalant to the crown hardly compares to direct control...

And also due to their interests. Without the support of the Catepan and without a papal-endorsed crusade, they are in a weak position vis-a-vis the Maritime Beyliks.

They also had this tendency to attack everything in sight, though that was more De Villaret than De Villeneuve...

Zaccaria is even weaker than in OTL since he doesn't have the baronies of Chalandritsa and Damala. His only chance is that the Angevins to exceptionally well and give him Chios.

Charles want him as an admiral not for the army and navy he doesn't have...

 

[X Oristos]

No idea. As a rule of thumb I'm estimating the three branches of the family hold roughly 30% of the kingdom directly, for the rest Charles III should be much better able to get feudal duties than his daughter OTL but still serving for 40-60 days a year or paying the equivalant to the crown hardly compares to direct control...

The more I read on the neapolitan nobility the more astounded I am of the feudal holdings. Originally, I thought that coastal Campania would have been kept as part of the royal demesne and Principato Ultra and the mountainous eastern Principato Citra dominated by the nobility. Apparently that's not the case. There were the counties of Caserta , Acerra and Nola just outside Naples. Some of the most densely populated and productive land of the kingdom, right outside of the capital! For what matters, even Casoria belonged not to the crown but to the archibishop of Naples. Therefore, it seems to me now that the royal demesne in Campagna was coastal Salerno, Naples and its very immediate suburbs and the coastal Terra di Lavoro. Capitanata seems to have been a major heartland of the royal demesne alongside Calabria. Then it seems that 50-60% of Terra ti Bari was part of the demesne. The rest of the provinces seems to have been overwhelmingly baronial.

 

[pls don't ban me]

"So you accept duke?"

"Despot." Theodore noted absentmindedly. "Doukas is our family name not a title."

"Despot then. Do you accept his holiness instructions"

"No"

this made me laugh way to much 🤣

 

[Basileus_of_the_Hellenes]

So I decided to make a GIF about the expansion of the Despotate from 1282 (Alexandros' Landfall in Sicily) to 1338 (the death of Ioannis the first). The GIF was way too big to post on here though (9MB... Might need to reduce the size of my maps), so the only way I could figure it out is by posting it on Reddit, and providing a link below:

https://www.reddit.com/r/imaginarymaps/comments/1979ild

Enjoy!

Edit:
Thanks @galileo-034! I just tried it!

Also, list of Years and descriptions

Year	Comment
1282​	Alexandros' Landfall
1284​	The War of the Sicilian Vespers
1302​	The Treaty of Salerno
1304​	The Year of Ioannis' Expedition East
1305​	The Conquest of Achaea Begins
1306​	The Conquest of Achaea Continues
1308​	The Battle of Mantineia
1310​	The Twilight of Frankokratia
1315​	Mad King' Frederick's War
1316​	The Despotate Upon the Death of Alexandros I
1317​	The Year of Vatatzes' Fury
1318​	Basileus' Betrayal
1321​	Acropolis' Fall
1322​	Cleaning House
1325​	The Conquest of Eastern Sicily
1327​	Into Thessaly
1328​	On the Plains of Golden Grain
1329​	Twilight of the Catalans
1332​	Fall from Grace
1333​	The Conquest of Malta
1336​	Toll the Hounds, Release the Doves
1338​	The Despotate Upon the Death of Ioannis I

 

[galileo-034]

So I decided to make a GIF about the expansion of the Despotate from 1282 (Alexandros' Landfall in Sicily) to 1338 (the death of Ioannis the first). The GIF was way too big to post on here though (9MB... Might need to reduce the size of my maps), so the only way I could figure it out is by posting it on Reddit, and providing a link below:

https://www.reddit.com/r/imaginarymaps/comments/1979ild

Enjoy!

You can put it as a picture instead in the post by taking the url i.redd.it/mzezgdz62mcc1.gif .

 

[X Oristos]

So I decided to make a GIF about the expansion of the Despotate from 1282 (Alexandros' Landfall in Sicily) to 1338 (the death of Ioannis the first). The GIF was way too big to post on here though (9MB... Might need to reduce the size of my maps), so the only way I could figure it out is by posting it on Reddit, and providing a link below:

Congratulations are in order! This is excellent work !!!

 

[Lascaris]

So I decided to make a GIF about the expansion of the Despotate from 1282 (Alexandros' Landfall in Sicily) to 1338 (the death of Ioannis the first). The GIF was way too big to post on here though (9MB... Might need to reduce the size of my maps), so the only way I could figure it out is by posting it on Reddit, and providing a link below:

https://www.reddit.com/r/imaginarymaps/comments/1979ild

Enjoy!

Edit:
Thanks @galileo-034! I just tried it!

Also, list of Years and descriptions

Year	Comment
1282​	Alexandros' Landfall
1284​	The War of the Sicilian Vespers
1302​	The Treaty of Salerno
1304​	The Year of Ioannis' Expedition East
1305​	The Conquest of Achaea Begins
1306​	The Conquest of Achaea Continues
1308​	The Battle of Mantineia
1310​	The Twilight of Frankokratia
1315​	Mad King' Frederick's War
1316​	The Despotate Upon the Death of Alexandros I
1317​	The Year of Vatatzes' Fury
1318​	Basileus' Betrayal
1321​	Acropolis' Fall
1322​	Cleaning House
1325​	The Conquest of Eastern Sicily
1327​	Into Thessaly
1328​	On the Plains of Golden Grain
1329​	Twilight of the Catalans
1332​	Fall from Grace
1333​	The Conquest of Malta
1336​	Toll the Hounds, Release the Doves
1338​	The Despotate Upon the Death of Ioannis I

That's great work, thanks a lot!

 

[Lascaris]

Demetrias, Thessaly, June 15th, 1344

One hundred Turkish ships descended on the coast pillaging and burning everything in sight. The town itself was too strongly defended for the Turkish raiders to take and soon cavalry and infantry would chase them off. The despotate was already skirmishing with Ioannis Kantakouzenos Aydinid allies and despite Kantakouzenos hopes neither Umur nor Theodore, much cared about a peaceful settlement. But the raid on Thessaly, prompted by the need to keep the large fleet and army besieging Thessaloniki in supply sent things from skirmishing to open war.

Palermo, June 21st, 1344

45 war galleys and three times as many transports entered the great harbor bringing 10,000 men and king Charles III in person to Sicily. They would be joined there by another 3,000 men raised locally by Walter VI. Charles would give the men a week to recover from the voyage before marching east towards the despotate border. It was not war. Yet. But it looked doubtful if it was going to be anything but war.

Cefalu, July 2nd, 1344

"It can still be peace, if you agree to the terms of his holiness. Do you really want a war?"

Theodore Doukas Lascaris was unimpressed. "We both know that I won't surrender and you want back down from your invasion, don't we?"

Charles would begin the siege of Cefalu the same day. Theodore, his army of 10,000 outnumbered for now would follow the advice of his uncle, Alexios Philantrhopenos and play for time instead of offering battle before wearing down his opponent.

Thermaic gulf, July 13th, 1344

None could accuse Michael Philanthropenos, he had not been taught well by his father, even if he hardly had his brilliance, as he brought the entire despotate fleet in Greek waters, 50 galleys, to take on the Aydinids. Umur having four times as many ships was not the kind of man to refuse battle. But most of his ships were much lighter craft than the three bank galleys standard to the Italian and Iberian fleets. Umur would soon realize he was in a losing battle but cornered between an enemy fleet and the coast would be forced to fight to the death. Out of 200 Turkish ships only 74 would manage to make it away. Michael would lose 10 galleys of his own and enter Thessaloniki in triumph. Then he'd get the news from Chios and Umur still had an army in front of Thessaloniki...

Rhodes, July 24th, 1344

Helion de Villneuve grand master of the Hospitaller order looked at the sight at Mandraki harbour in some distaste. Zaccaria had left Brindisi at the head of 38 Angevin galleys earlier in the month. Besides stopping to water at Corfu and then the Venetian ports of Methone and Crete he had headed straight for Rhodes without even bothering to raid the Lascarid coasts on his way. And yet there was method in his madness. The letters from Avignon Zaccaria carried with him ordered the Hospital to join the war against "the excommunicated, schismatic Vatatzes". De Villneuve knew well enough Theodore was not quite Catholic, he didn't need the Holy Father to tell him. But he was a useful schismatic. But Clement VI had his political reasons and the last thing the Hospital could do was disobey his orders. And at least someone had recognized house Vatatzes relied on freely moving ships and armies between Italy and Greece and was trying to do something about it. And it was not as if the grand master had never coveted the Lascarid holdings. A week later 6 Hospitaller and 4 Papal galleys joined Zaccaria's fleet as it sailed north to attack Chios.

Scalea, August 1344

Andrew, prince of Hungary, duke of Calabria was anything but happy. His father in law had given him an army of 5,000 men to take over his duchy. But his subjects Greek and Latin alike seemed anything but willing to submit to their rightful duke. He had spent six weeks to subdue the castle of Scalea having to deal with constant skirmishing from Alexandros smaller army, his spies claimed he had about 3,500 men and just as constant arguments with his second in command Louis of Taranto. But Scalea was finally his. He advanced further south. One castle at a time he was going to gain his duchy.

Falani, Thessaly , September 10th, 1344

Umur might had been defeated at sea but still had an army of 15,000 outside Thessaloniki and was not going to let his defeat go unavenged. Thus he had let his army south to invade Thessaly. Michael had been ready for this having concentrated an army of 13,500 at Larisa. After weeks of skirmishing the two armies would finally give battle at Falani in the north of Larisa. Michael would win the battle forcing Umur to retreat back north into Macedonia, but Umur's army would retreat north in good order with relatively few casualties...

Lipari islands, September 22nd, 1344

Theodore had avoided battle so far. But with Charles III capturing Cefalu and advancing east to besiege Messina, the flow of supplies between the Italian mainland and Sicily had to be cut. Thus he had sought battle and Walter VI, in command of the royal fleet in Sicilian waters had been too confident or too arrogant to avoid it despite his fleet being slightly smaller with 45 galleys facing 50. Theodore had won a had fought action capturing 6 enemy galleys. It was not a crushing victory. It still made Charles life that much harder particularly as he had to deal with the massive fortifications of Messina with fewer supplies, winter approaching and an intact Sicilian army harassing him on every turn.

Chios, October 10, 1344

The campaign season was getting relatively late for galleys. But Zaccaria and Villneuve were not going to stop besieging Chios just because their initial assault had failed, the island had a strong garrison and even stronger fortifications, or because the weather was getting worse the place was too rich a prize to let go. But neither was the despotate going to leave Chios undefended. And thus the Lascarid fleet, fresh from victory against the Turks but also bloodied by it had met the Angevin fleet head on in the straits between Chios and Erythraia. Zaccaria would lose a dozen galleys out of the 48 he had led to battle. But the Lascarid fleet would lose 16 out of 40...

Durazzo, December 1344

The siege entered its ninth month. The Serbs had no way to cut off supplies from the sea but kept pressing on. Sooner or later one assault would prove too strong for the Catalans...

Messina, December 1344

Theodore and Alexios Philanthropenos went through the yards which were full at work repairing ships and building more. Charles had made an abortive attempt at besieging the city but had been forced to retreat west with winter approacching.

"Any suggestions uncle?"

"Destroy the enemy fleets and then crush the bastards piecemeal? But you already know that, you are asking me how. I won't tell you it's going to be easy as easy this time as it was with that idiot Frederick, or that victory is guarranteed, but then your father survived worse. If you want to take risks, big risks, remember Agathocles."

University of Syracuse, December 1344

Barlaam was busy writing and discussing with his fellow professors. Adrienne's instructions had been simple. The university had to demolish the arguments put forth by the pope and the Angevins...

 

[Basileus_of_the_Hellenes]

But the raid on Thessaly, prompted by the need to keep the large fleet and army besieging Thessaloniki in supply sent things from skirmishing to open war.

Hm... is this 'open war' on the Aydinid's or Kantakouzenos? So far Michael has only fought the Turks under Umur, not any Hellenic armies led by Kantakouzenos... Would we see Kantakouzenos leave Umur out to dry (dealing with Umur would be a godsend for the Regency though regardless)? Really feel like if Kantakouzenos attempts to push the matter, the Regency might be given a 'win' on a silver platter though*.

*So long as Michael does not attempt an invasion of Imperial holdings again... cough cough 'the Despotate of Morea'...

45 galleys facing 50. Theodore had won a had fought action capturing 6 enemy galleys.

So Walter holds 39, and Theodore holds 56 galleys as of Sept 1344, or were there other Despotate losses?

But the Lascarid fleet would lose 16 out of 40...

If the above is true, perhaps a small convoy of say 10-12 galleys could be sent to reinforce the Aegean?

That's great work, thanks a lot!

Appreciate the thanks! Thank you for this great timeline!!

 

[Whiteshore]

University of Syracuse, December 1344

Barlaam was busy writing and discussing with his fellow professors. Adrienne's instructions had been simple. The university had to demolish the arguments put forth by the pope and the Angevins...

"Papists and Angevins Destroyed By Facts and Logic" be like.

 

[galileo-034]

and just as constant arguments with his second in command Louis of Taranto.

Oh, what could wrong between these two? I wonder ^^

. If you want to take risks, big risks, remember Agathocles."

Hmm. Time for a little visit to Naples I guess... Better he does not burn the ships behind this time though