The eagle's left head

[goumaister]

Ok this is the most time we have covered on a single update, AND I LOVE IT.
The good relations of Alexander with the new Charles is going to play a role now that he is king. I would like to see what Philanthropenos will brings ITTL, will he go for Alexander as king and rebel? Or just stay as OTL and get blinded. Or maybe even take the crown for himself and then marry with the family of Vatatzes.
The whole pope excommunications shenanigans on the Sicilians will have an effect on their loyalty to the Catholic faith? I wonder if they go with something more local land closer to the Orthodox maybe with a little Vatatzes help.

 

[X Oristos]

Soooo.... John Doukas Vatatzes will soon need a betrothal. If Alexandros prevails over the coming storm, as part of a peace settlement with Charles, he can ask permission for John to marry Princess Matilda of Achaia.

Speaking of the coming storm, the Despotate will soon face both Charles and James. I wonder though what sort of compensation Constance will get for Infante Frederick.

 

[Lascaris]

At this point it seems Alexandros is the only realistic option for the people of Sicily with everyone else willing to sell them to the Pope/Angevins. What is the reason here for the Aragonese to relinquish their claim to Sicily? Historically they managed to keep the island for themselves and sign a favourable peace.

The events are... entirely historical. Why James II was willing to relinquish his claim to Sicily? War weariness on the Aragonese part and Aragon was directly bordering France so continued war with Philip the Fair with the papacy in Philip's pockets was problematic.

Ok this is the most time we have covered on a single update, AND I LOVE IT.
The good relations of Alexander with the new Charles is going to play a role now that he is king. I would like to see what Philanthropenos will brings ITTL, will he go for Alexander as king and rebel? Or just stay as OTL and get blinded. Or maybe even take the crown for himself and then marry with the family of Vatatzes.

Philanthropenos just so happens to be Alexander's brother in law...

The whole pope excommunications shenanigans on the Sicilians will have an effect on their loyalty to the Catholic faith? I wonder if they go with something more local land closer to the Orthodox maybe with a little Vatatzes help.

Vatatzes already made a Basilian order monk archbishop of Syracuse. Who technically are in communion with Rome... but are following the Greek rite. Effectively under Alexander the Greeks of Eastern Sicily and Calabria for the first time in centuries have a fellow Greek directly ruling over them. Which is going to be important, in OTL it was Aragonese policies that proved the final deathblow to Greek Sicily... even though some Greek speaking villages made it all the way to the early 19th century.

Soooo.... John Doukas Vatatzes will soon need a betrothal. If Alexandros prevails over the coming storm, as part of a peace settlement with Charles, he can ask permission for John to marry Princess Matilda of Achaia.

Matilda just like her mother could not marry without the consent of the kings of Naples. Now this is not necessarily a show stopper but Alexander and Charles are at war at the moment...

Speaking of the coming storm, the Despotate will soon face both Charles and James. I wonder though what sort of compensation Constance will get for Infante Frederick.

Frederick has not yet accepted the offer. Constance will be decidedly against it.

 

[Lascaris]

Palermo, December 12, 1295

Frederick of Aragon at the news of the treaty of Anagni, had requested that Catherine de Courtenay, accept the proposed betrothal by September 1295, in order to accept the treaty. Catherine sensibly enough some later historians would say had declined the proposed marriage saying that a princess without lands, ought not to marry a prince without lands. And that had been the end of the treaty for Frederick who had refused it and accepted the crown of Sicily. His mother had been more than happy to support his decision. Some might had feared that her cousin Alexandros Doukas Vatatzes might not, after all he would had been the likely alternative to Frederick, if the latter adhered to the papal schemes. But Alexander, also concerned about events back in Greece, had more than readily supported his nephew's decision. And that was it. Frederick was proclaimed Frederick III king of Sicily.

Constantinople, January 1296

For the past three years, Alexios Philanthropenos had led his army, built around some 3,000 Cretan veterans of the revolt against Venice, from victory to victory against the Turks. This had not failed to bring up his popularity and this in turn to bring accusations and slander against him to the emperor. While Andronikos seemed at least initially resistant to the calumnies he had also failed to provide any meaningful support. The end result had been Alexios being proclaimed by his troops emperor and despite his initial misgivings in the end going along with revolt against his uncle. Initially the revolt seemed to carry all before it, after all the Asia Minor populations were anything but happy with the Palaiologues, it was natural to side with the man delivering them from the Turks and who could claim connection by marriage to the Lascarids. Andronikos could likely not stand up to Alexios. But what fighting could not achieve treason had when Alexios had been betrayed and arrested. Now what mattered would be his fate....

His serenity basileus Andronikos II looked at Maximus Planudes in consternation. "And why again Alexandros sent you to my court?"

"The despot would like to request your clemency for your nephew."

"And why should I give it? He is a traitor and will be treated as such."

"My master would be sorely disappointed, if you had his brother in law blinded. As you might recall from your youth he was very fond of him."

"So was I, before he rose up against the throne. And Vatatzes had better not threaten the imperial throne."

"My master has certainly not..."

"Then how does he dare send you here to interfere on the decisions of his emperor?"

Planudes visibly flinched. "As said your serenity the despot instructed me, to tell you that he'll be sorely disappointed, indeed insulted if anything untoward happens to his brother in law. He's prepared to take the problem off your hands instead."

Andronikos was getting ironic. "Otherwise will happen what?"

"Otherwise he'll come to discuss in person how intolerable he finds this and what your father had done to his nephew his serenity basileus Ioannis IV, to secure your place to the throne."

"He'll come in person."

"He further instructed me to remind you who has a fleet and who not."

Andronikos said nothing for a while. "So how is Alexandros prepared to take the problem off my hands?"

"He proposes that you exile Alexios and his supporters to Sicily. He's prepared to take them in and ensure they never return to the east as he has not. You know the despot has never broken his word in his life."

"So either I send Alexios to him or he comes to me."

The ships carrying Philantrhropenos and his loyalists were off to Messina as soon at the weather allowed...


Messina, October 1296

The Sicilian army of Frederick and Alexandros had crossed into Calabria in the spring joined there by Philanthropenos exiles. The Sicilians had been able to drive the Neapolitan army who had made inroads into Calabria out of it and advance into Basilicata while their fleet under Roger de Lauria had been able to size Otranto and besiege Brindisi. But events outside Sicily were to undermine their success. Earlier in the year the pope had secured the military support of king James of Aragon against his former Sicilian subjects, who now sent an embassy to his brother demanding obedience. The parliament of Sicily was called in Messina by Frederick to decide on the response. It wasn't much in doubt. The Sicilians, excommunicated for the third time earlier this year would decide to fight on. The war would go on...

 

[Xenophonte]

Alexios Philanthropenos had led his army, built around some 3,000 Cretan veterans of the revolt against Venice, from victory to victory against the Turks.

Now this is a very interesting and not only numerical addition to the Despotat armies and one that as with the fleet, strengthens its position thanks, once again, to the Byzantine emperor's misjudgments.

 

[Sceonn]

Is Alexandros and Alexander the same person?

 

[Sol Zagato]

Glad for another chapter, however you might want to go back and edit it. It reads like a machine translation currently.

 

[Quinkana]

Tbf considering how Sicily seems to becoming the nucleus of a Greek Kingdom that rules mainland Greece and Naples would be interesting. Part of Greece being in former Italy would most likely mean Italy stays split which is advantageous to Venice. Maybe we see Venice controlling the Po valley for much longer.

Idk how Constantinople and Asia Minor would turn out though. Andronikos is still on the throne. Maybe the civil war is averted ittl?

PS I could see Frederick being childless and passing on the throne to Alexandria' child.

 

[Quinkana]

Also Syracuse does make a bit of sense if they don't get to Constantinople and would fit the Romans changing capitals in a new era: Rome for antiquity, Constantinople for the Medieval era, and Syracuse for the Modern era.

It'd be interesting for the Greek Syracuse state to expand to Naples and Tunisia and control the mid point of the Med, while expanding/allying with achaia to control the Adriatic (they'd probably ally with achaia first before getting to Naples or Tunisia. Sicily getting to mainland Greece would be cool tho, although controlling the islands of mainland Greece would take precedence).

 

[X Oristos]

I am eagerly waiting for what comes next: the showdown between the great di Lauria and the combo Vatatzes/Philanthropenos.

The Despot has been campaigning for more than 20 years. At this point, he must be one of the most experienced commanders of his era. Philanthropenos by all accounts, he was a superb commander managing stunning victories against numerically superior enemies. Last but not least, di Lauria was the greatest admiral of the 13th century.

It seems to me that the Despotate can punch above its weight. It has been indicated that Vatatzes has accomplished a socio-political transformation of his demesne. That means smallholder soldiers and pronoia-holders. Both the marines and the rowers of the fleet would have been given land. The Angevin and Aragonese fleets have to be sustained by coin and loot. Since Vatatzes' men receive also land, the monetary burden for the Despot is lesser. Therefore, I believe that the Despotate can maintain a larger fleet than OTL aragonese eastern Sicily and Calabria.

More or less, the same can be applied to the army as well. The Despotate has the ability to maintain a larger army than its OTL counterpart. Moreover, it will be signficantly more militarized, with a lot of small-holders acting as militias. It will be easier to recover manpower losses. The Angevin infantry are mercenaries - expensive and thus limited in numbers.

Lastly, Vatatzes can field a combined-arms army in typical lascarid fashion: mercenary and pronoia heavy cavalry, pronoia light cavalry (including Cumans), mercenary infantry and militia infantry.

 

[Quinkana]

I am eagerly waiting for what comes next: the showdown between the great di Lauria and the combo Vatatzes/Philanthropenos.

The Despot has been campaigning for more than 20 years. At this point, he must be one of the most experienced commanders of his era. Philanthropenos by all accounts, he was a superb commander managing stunning victories against numerically superior enemies. Last but not least, di Lauria was the greatest admiral of the 13th century.

It seems to me that the Despotate can punch above its weight. It has been indicated that Vatatzes has accomplished a socio-political transformation of his demesne. That means smallholder soldiers and pronoia-holders. Both the marines and the rowers of the fleet would have been given land. The Angevin and Aragonese fleets have to be sustained by coin and loot. Since Vatatzes' men receive also land, the monetary burden for the Despot is lesser. Therefore, I believe that the Despotate can maintain a larger fleet than OTL aragonese eastern Sicily and Calabria.

More or less, the same can be applied to the army as well. The Despotate has the ability to maintain a larger army than its OTL counterpart. Moreover, it will be signficantly more militarized, with a lot of small-holders acting as militias. It will be easier to recover manpower losses. The Angevin infantry are mercenaries - expensive and thus limited in numbers.

Lastly, Vatatzes can field a combined-arms army in typical lascarid fashion: mercenary and pronoia heavy cavalry, pronoia light cavalry (including Cumans), mercenary infantry and militia infantry.

Tbf seeing Vatatzes at least control East Sicily is very fun, considering he is Frederick's greatest supporter in terms of military might. Considering the Cumans and loyalists that he could muster I'd really like to see him get to like southern Naples and have a permanent hold there.

Tbf if Vatatzes manages to build a good navy in Sicily I really hope we see him fucking with both Aragon and France. I mean if he gets a good enough navy a lot of things he has to worry about won't be a problem, and he can compete with Venice and not get crushed by them.

I'd really like to see the next few kings (seems to me Alexandros will be the king or kingmaker of Sicily ittl (autokrator of Sicily?)) And his son would make the rule of the Vatatzes stable like what the first few English kings by fighting a bunch of ppl who disagreed with him, Muslims and Latins alike.

 

[Xenophonte]

From my perspective, the Despotat, seem to be in the path to become in an alternative Roman, Byzantine center of power able to act as a manpower/military and political back/reserve both for Greece and for the same Empire if its center/core regions and the current dynasty would fail/fall before either before an external/internal menace/enemy.
I envision that once ended this active warfare stage and consolidated at its borders and with a its fleet, the Despotat and its rulers would be possible that would have for ITTL Eastern Empire, the same importance than has had for its OTL counterparts, Illyria & Iberia as well as Macedon and Isauria.
Which, I believed that would prove to be key especially if aren't butterflied or averted the OTL, Byzantine irreversible disaster of Bapheus that later would lead to the one of Nicomedia.

 

[Quinkana]

From my perspective, the Despotat, seem to be in the path to become in an alternative Roman, Byzantine center of power able to act as a manpower/military and political back/reserve both for Greece and for the same Empire if its center/core regions and the current dynasty would fail/fall before either before an external/internal menace/enemy.
I envision that once ended this active warfare stage and consolidated at its borders and with a its fleet, the Despotat and its rulers would be possible that would have for ITTL Eastern Empire, the same importance than has had for its OTL counterparts, Illyria & Iberia as well as Macedon and Isauria.
Which, I believed that would prove to be key especially if aren't butterflied or averted the OTL, Byzantine irreversible disaster of Bapheus that later would lead to the one of Nicomedia.

Tbf idk how would Sicily's relations be with the ERE. If their relationship is good then they would probably help out against the ottomans, but if they're bad I could see them hastening the fall of the actual ERE by allying the Ottomans (in hindsight is a bad alliance but is a benefit in the short-medium term) and call themselves third Rome which would be interesting.

 

[Lascaris]

Now this is a very interesting and not only numerical addition to the Despotat armies and one that as with the fleet, strengthens its position thanks, once again, to the Byzantine emperor's misjudgments.

Andronikos was... Andronikos. If I wrote him as a character I'd be getting accused I invented him for the sole purpose of messing up things.

Is Alexandros and Alexander the same person?

Yup. Usually when he's acting in character or its a title I'm using the Greek form, otherwise the English one.

Tbf considering how Sicily seems to becoming the nucleus of a Greek Kingdom that rules mainland Greece and Naples would be interesting. Part of Greece being in former Italy would most likely mean Italy stays split which is advantageous to Venice. Maybe we see Venice controlling the Po valley for much longer.

Idk how Constantinople and Asia Minor would turn out though. Andronikos is still on the throne. Maybe the civil war is averted ittl?

PS I could see Frederick being childless and passing on the throne to Alexandria' child.

Frederick is not married yet. Of course he's only 24 at the moment. Which brings the question what children Alexander has aside from John. The earliest a second child could be born would be 1284...

Also Syracuse does make a bit of sense if they don't get to Constantinople and would fit the Romans changing capitals in a new era: Rome for antiquity, Constantinople for the Medieval era, and Syracuse for the Modern era.

It'd be interesting for the Greek Syracuse state to expand to Naples and Tunisia and control the mid point of the Med, while expanding/allying with achaia to control the Adriatic (they'd probably ally with achaia first before getting to Naples or Tunisia. Sicily getting to mainland Greece would be cool tho, although controlling the islands of mainland Greece would take precedence).

Messina at the moment is the larger city, nowhere near the 100,000 of Palermo but still larger than Syracuse. Now Syracuse has other advantages, not least in its geography. It may not be Constantinople but how many other cities did manage to stand to as many sieges from Athenians, Carthaginians, Romans and Arabs?

I am eagerly waiting for what comes next: the showdown between the great di Lauria and the combo Vatatzes/Philanthropenos.

The Despot has been campaigning for more than 20 years. At this point, he must be one of the most experienced commanders of his era. Philanthropenos by all accounts, he was a superb commander managing stunning victories against numerically superior enemies. Last but not least, di Lauria was the greatest admiral of the 13th century.

Alexander has been depicted as solidly capable, to somewhat above average, he's no Hannibal but the whole family were capable for what little it may be worth. Philanthropenos was decidedly above average... on land. At sea he did not fight any battle for us to compare.

It seems to me that the Despotate can punch above its weight. It has been indicated that Vatatzes has accomplished a socio-political transformation of his demesne. That means smallholder soldiers and pronoia-holders. Both the marines and the rowers of the fleet would have been given land. The Angevin and Aragonese fleets have to be sustained by coin and loot. Since Vatatzes' men receive also land, the monetary burden for the Despot is lesser. Therefore, I believe that the Despotate can maintain a larger fleet than OTL aragonese eastern Sicily and Calabria.

It is by comparison a copy of the empire of Nikaia transplanted in Sicily. Good for the commoners, not so good for the barons but conveniently at the time of its establishment they probably were at their lowest ebb, after two generations of strong monarchs, Frederick II and then ironically Charles I breaking their power.

More or less, the same can be applied to the army as well. The Despotate has the ability to maintain a larger army than its OTL counterpart. Moreover, it will be signficantly more militarized, with a lot of small-holders acting as militias. It will be easier to recover manpower losses. The Angevin infantry are mercenaries - expensive and thus limited in numbers.

I would not underestimate the ability of the French style feudal system in a relatively rich area to generate large numbers of troops, just compare the numbers of troops the Principality of Achaea and Duchy of Athens could raise.

Lastly, Vatatzes can field a combined-arms army in typical lascarid fashion: mercenary and pronoia heavy cavalry, pronoia light cavalry (including Cumans), mercenary infantry and militia infantry.

Now that is more interesting... when such an army was handled well. Convenient that one of the best generals of the era is there to lead it no?

Tbf seeing Vatatzes at least control East Sicily is very fun, considering he is Frederick's greatest supporter in terms of military might. Considering the Cumans and loyalists that he could muster I'd really like to see him get to like southern Naples and have a permanent hold there.

Tbf if Vatatzes manages to build a good navy in Sicily I really hope we see him fucking with both Aragon and France. I mean if he gets a good enough navy a lot of things he has to worry about won't be a problem, and he can compete with Venice and not get crushed by them.

Venice fielded at Curzola in 1298 a fleet of 98 galleys. The combined Sicilian, Neapolitan and Aragonese fleets at Cape Orlando a year later 104...

I'd really like to see the next few kings (seems to me Alexandros will be the king or kingmaker of Sicily ittl (autokrator of Sicily?)) And his son would make the rule of the Vatatzes stable like what the first few English kings by fighting a bunch of ppl who disagreed with him, Muslims and Latins alike.

The Despotate is not having an exactly unchallenged future in the coming few years. The Angevins have every reason to destroy it and once the war is over the Sicilian barons will have every reason to want to encroach on the damn schismatic. Whether that proves a good idea...

From my perspective, the Despotat, seem to be in the path to become in an alternative Roman, Byzantine center of power able to act as a manpower/military and political back/reserve both for Greece and for the same Empire if its center/core regions and the current dynasty would fail/fall before either before an external/internal menace/enemy.
I envision that once ended this active warfare stage and consolidated at its borders and with a its fleet, the Despotat and its rulers would be possible that would have for ITTL Eastern Empire, the same importance than has had for its OTL counterparts, Illyria & Iberia as well as Macedon and Isauria.
Which, I believed that would prove to be key especially if aren't butterflied or averted the OTL, Byzantine irreversible disaster of Bapheus that later would lead to the one of Nicomedia.

The despotat as it currently stands has a population around 400,000 people. That's not exactly insignificant, the Despotate of Morea in 1400 probably had considerably fewer people)

 

[Sceonn]

Yup. Usually when he's acting in character or its a title I'm using the Greek form, otherwise the English one.

Then I hope you pick one, because it's like switching between John and Juan in narrative.

 

[Quinkana]

Messina at the moment is the larger city, nowhere near the 100,000 of Palermo but still larger than Syracuse. Now Syracuse has other advantages, not least in its geography. It may not be Constantinople but how many other cities did manage to stand to as many sieges from Athenians, Carthaginians, Romans and Arabs?

Tbf Syracuse sounds like a better capital now considering how well defended it could become. Messania also can't really affect trade in between Sicily and Tunisia across the med and I'd think Syracuse is the better option in terms of trade influence too. Long term however what other options other than messania is probable?

Tbf I could defo see a 'Prince of Syracuse' thing happen for the descendants of Alexandros tho.

It is by comparison a copy of the empire of Nikaia transplanted in Sicily. Good for the commoners, not so good for the barons but conveniently at the time of its establishment they probably were at their lowest ebb, after two generations of strong monarchs, Frederick II and then ironically Charles I breaking their power.

I could see the breaking of the Barons in the Renaissance and we see the merchants becoming more prominent in Sicily.

The Despotate is not having an exactly unchallenged future in the coming few years. The Angevins have every reason to destroy it and once the war is over the Sicilian barons will have every reason to want to encroach on the damn schismatic. Whether that proves a good idea...

I definitely see the French trying to get to Sicily a few more times. Aragon will help but unless something happens to Frederick and Aragon idk how will Sicily get passed on to the Vatatzes.

 

[Tourmarches_ton_Scholon]

First of all, interesting story Lascaris, Alexander's luck seems somewhat implausible, but hey that is what AH is for.

Seems like the East head is not doing that well now that Andronikos started his disastrous rule. Let's hope it will not waste away while Alexander is rebuilding the WRE.

Near Cosenza, Calabria, June 28th, 1284

The small group of Stratiotai, most of them Greeks with a handful of Cumans along them, turned back their horses to go back with their report to their master. The Italians it was true were taking reasonably good precautions. But the Stratiotai were veterans of fighting the Turks in Anatolia, and for that matter anyone from fellow Greeks to Golden Horde Mongols in the Balkans. It was a different school of warfare...

I found this one quite interesting. Do we have any accounts of Stratiotai, or any other light Roman cavalry, facing the Mongols? I thought the Romans and the Mongols were allied.

 

[Lascaris]

Tbf Syracuse sounds like a better capital now considering how well defended it could become. Messania also can't really affect trade in between Sicily and Tunisia across the med and I'd think Syracuse is the better option in terms of trade influence too. Long term however what other options other than messania is probable?

That depends on what the despots control or do not control... assuming they exist.

Tbf I could defo see a 'Prince of Syracuse' thing happen for the descendants of Alexandros tho.

I could see the breaking of the Barons in the Renaissance and we see the merchants becoming more prominent in Sicily.

You already had a breaking of the barons under Frederick II, then Charles inserting Frenchman who got chased out.. Which from my point of view OOC was very convenient since it means Alexander finds himself operating in something of a vacuum.

First of all, interesting story Lascaris, Alexander's luck seems somewhat implausible, but hey that is what AH is for.

As Napoleon put it "yes he's a good general but is he lucky?" It would be somewhat self defeating if Alex got born just to be blinded at 5 by Michael Palaiologos. Or if it went "Alexandros died leading his men on an assault at the garrison of Augusta.." Now AFTER putting him at the right place and time in 1282 to take advantage of the Vespers and not making him stupid I don't think I gave him an implausible amount of luck for successful soldiers of the era, the victories he has won happened also in OTL. Well he has consistently benefitted from Andronikos stupidity... but you could depend upon Andronikos to always make the wrong call.

Seems like the East head is not doing that well now that Andronikos started his disastrous rule. Let's hope it will not waste away while Alexander is rebuilding the WRE.
I found this one quite interesting. Do we have any accounts of Stratiotai, or any other light Roman cavalry, facing the Mongols? I thought the Romans and the Mongols were allied.

The empire got invaded twice in 1264 and 1272 by the Golden Horde. Notably while it suffered defeats and looting in both occasions, it survived them intact and so did its armies. Which I find interesting for the question of what would had happened if a few tumans met the Komnenian army at its peak...

 

[Quinkana]

That depends on what the despots control or do not control... assuming they exist.

Tbf it seems like Palmero is the best option if they have all of Sicily at it's disposal? But Syracuse is probably the best for having good geography?

You already had a breaking of the barons under Frederick II, then Charles inserting Frenchman who got chased out.. Which from my point of view OOC was very convenient since it means Alexander finds himself operating in something of a vacuum.

Yeah it'd allow Alexandros to put his own men in place, and settle Cumans in too which would be fun. Defo could see the villages slowly becoming Greek over the centuries.

 

[Lascaris]

Tbf it seems like Palmero is the best option if they have all of Sicily at it's disposal? But Syracuse is probably the best for having good geography?

Yeah it'd allow Alexandros to put his own men in place, and settle Cumans in too which would be fun. Defo could see the villages slowly becoming Greek over the centuries.

For the added fun the villages do not need to slowly become Greek, in Eastern Sicily they were largely Greek in the first place... now for the first time since the Arab conquest of Sicily, with the minor exception of the three years under Maniakes 5hey are ruled by a fellow Greek with a vented interest to support them...