The eagle's left head

[Avrorrange]

The problem is that all the important feudal vassals receive their legitimacy from the Angevin Dynasty. The important elites under Frederick and Manfred have been replaced by Franco-Provencals. These were mostly lesser nobles of northern France and Provence that were elevated by Charles. And it is worth mentioning that the ATL War of the Vespers went only slightly worse for the Angevins. Last but not least, there is the matter of the Papacy and the Guelph-Ghibelline conflict. The Franco-Provencal lords would be expected to be loyal to the Champion of the Papacy - a heavily french-influenced Papacy that is.

There should be major uprisings from the commoners and the remaining nobility that wasn’t replaced like the Sicilian Vespers. They would have been oppressed for years and paying massive taxations(plus being levied) to fight losing wars against their own countrymen.The wars haven’t gone slightly worse,they have been consistently beaten up since Alexandros landed in Italy, losing a lot of the battles they have won IOTL before getting an entirely army wiped out. Yet, the Angevins are spending extravagantly in wars up North like OTL with a worse security situation and a lot less legitimacy.

Yet there is the example of Alexandros continuing and accelerating the centralization of Sicily. In Val di Noto and Val Demone there has been a replacement of the rulling class. To add salt to injury, even the "knightly" class of the Despotate, the pronoia-holders do not even have control of their land and they cannot bestow it to their sons. Such a political organization is an abomination for the Sicilian barons. On the other hand, their political influence in the West is on the rise, with the state becoming more and more decentralized, with Frederick exercising weak control and known to satisfy the demands of even the most unruly barons.

And now Alexandros is dead. New agreements can be made for territories other than the ‘crownlands’. You won’t be shocked to find that ‘unruly’, greedy nobles tend to be quite the cowardly lot as well when overmatched in strength and are given concessions.

 

[Quinkana]

I actually would be interested in seeing how the ERE hobbles along if the Turks are blocked from crossing the Aegean.

I think it's very possible that the Vatatzes take over the former fragmenting empire and reforges it in their image with Western Anatolia and Greece proper as their heartlands.

My guess on the rest of Anatolia is that it would be part of a Persian state (prob by a Timurid descended dynasty) ruled by a distant emperor with governors close by.

I could defo see them take over crimea and the such, and if they're lucky they could keep Trebizond and Cilicia alive too (especially if they have Cyprus).

 

[goumaister]

There should be major uprisings from the commoners and the remaining nobility that wasn’t replaced like the Sicilian Vespers. They would have been oppressed for years and paying massive taxations(plus being levied) to fight losing wars against their own countrymen.The wars haven’t gone slightly worse,they have been consistently beaten up since Alexandros landed in Italy, losing a lot of the battles they have won IOTL before getting an entirely army wiped out. Yet, the Angevins are spending extravagantly in wars up North like OTL with a worse security situation and a lot less legitimacy.

I feel like you overdramatize things. The Angevins have the financial support of both France and the Papacy at their side so in the Sicilian Vespers they could replenish a lot of money with loans from Florence and from the Pope. Also don't discount the levies and taxes from the peaceful France holdings like Provence and Maine both rich and prosperous. Technically the war with Alexandros ended with Calabria staying in the Angevin hold just under Vatatzes rule as a vassal. So in the Vespers they lost just Sicily.
Additionally they just repelled a Sicilian incursion and secured an easy armistice with them. So not just losses.

I really doubt any of the Western nobles would ever switch to Vatatzes because he has overthrown any noble in his domains, be it Sicily or Achaea. He helped peasant rebels and even armed them and of course they are just heretics. He isn't just another western ruler who let's you do your thing and just demands tribute and the occasional levy. He more likely will take your lands and give it to you peasants and maybe just give you a pronoia which could be revoked at any moment which is quite unacceptable.

I understand your sentiment to be honest but states have being mauled harder and recovered especially while their main domains are safe and not burnt by raids. If I remember correctly only Calabria was a battlefield and that was almost 20 years ago and it currently is under a vassal.

 

[Avrorrange]

I feel like you overdramatize things. The Angevins have the financial support of both France and the Papacy at their side so in the Sicilian Vespers they could replenish a lot of money with loans from Florence and from the Pope. Also don't discount the levies and taxes from the peaceful France holdings like Provence and Maine both rich and prosperous. Technically the war with Alexandros ended with Calabria staying in the Angevin hold just under Vatatzes rule as a vassal. So in the Vespers they lost just Sicily.
Additionally they just repelled a Sicilian incursion and secured an easy armistice with them. So not just losses.

Considering the fact that Philip IV was having financial troubles of his own and had to liquidate the Templars partly as a result of it, I am not so sure how much he is willing to spend to bail out his Neapolitan cousins. Papacy, maybe, but then again, they are hardly in a well off position themselves courtesy of Philip. I mean we literally had a discussion much earlier about how the Papacy wouldn’t go after the Vatazes anymore because they are distracted and just don’t give a damn about what happens in Southern Italy anymore. They also had a massive fall out in the aftermath of the 1302 defeat. Loans are possible and Provence was rich like you mentioned, but Provence too have history of causing trouble to the Angevins whenever taxes are raised, so the Angevins have to be careful on how much taxes they try to raise there as well. As for Maine and Anjou, those have been ceded to the House of Valois as dowry assuming that hasn’t been butterflied. I would say that even though Calabria ‘remained’ part of the Kingdom of Naples, it’s very much doing it’s own thing and whatever income the Angevins can extract from there would have been significantly less.

I really doubt any of the Western nobles would ever switch to Vatatzes because he has overthrown any noble in his domains, be it Sicily or Achaea. He helped peasant rebels and even armed them and of course they are just heretics. He isn't just another western ruler who let's you do your thing and just demands tribute and the occasional levy. He more likely will take your lands and give it to you peasants and maybe just give you a pronoia which could be revoked at any moment which is quite unacceptable.

That was the previous Vatatzes. The Sicilian territories Alexandros took over didn’t have a lot of nobles to begin with as per the OP. It’s Achaea where they gutted the local nobility, who were in a state of ‘rebellion’ against the Angevins. Nevertheless, the Vatatzes actually have a pretty good record of honouring their promises in this timeline unlike Frederick. If they actually promised that the rights of the nobility would be respected, it will likely be believed.

I understand your sentiment to be honest but states have being mauled harder and recovered especially while their main domains are safe and not burnt by raids. If I remember correctly only Calabria was a battlefield and that was almost 20 years ago and it currently is under a vassal.

I think the Neapolitan realm would be more fragile than most considering they are ruled by newly introduced foreigners with little legitamacy. A record of having their armies destroyed could easily lead to the ideas that revolts could be successful,especially since there are people with more legitimacy to the throne who have consistently beaten them. Yes, they can recover, but the Angevins will likely take much longer to recover and all those extra defeats incurred in this timeline should actually have an effect on their rule. Having them act exactly like OTL after all the changes and suffer almost no consequences for the subsequent failures however is unrealistic.They should honestly have spent the 10 years since 1302 putting down uprisings and stabilising the kingdom as chapter 22 suggested. If they then go on to march north in 1315 and get massacred as per OTL, it should reignite all the tensions in the kingdom and make it unfeasible to intervene in Sicilian affairs.

 

[Andristan]

I would like to point out that technically the Vatazes are not heretics, not even schismatics, as they "follow" Michael VIII's union at Lyons 40 years ago, sure the ERE dis-avowed it ten-ish years later but Alexandros never said he did and he was more or less independent at the time.
Also, having multiple feudal lords was quite common, especially in France and England but Italy as well, Ragusa Republic had multiple lords from around the 1300s(Bosnia and Venice) till the 1700s(Hungary and the Ottomans).

 

[Quinkana]

I would like to point out that technically the Vatazes are not heretics, not even schismatics, as they "follow" Michael VIII's union at Lyons 40 years ago, sure the ERE dis-avowed it ten-ish years later but Alexandros never said he did and he was more or less independent at the time.

The Vatatzes not allowing the Pope/Church to put their bishops in 'their' lands is already a big no-no for any Catholic ruler. The Vatatzes being Greek and orthodox are just additional reasons to justify their dislike of the family. Alexandros was excommunicated and I don't think the pope won't do it to Ioannes too when he steps on the throne (or he's already excommunicated bc of his father).

Also, having multiple feudal lords was quite common, especially in France and England but Italy as well, Ragusa Republic had multiple lords from around the 1300s(Bosnia and Venice) till the 1700s(Hungary and the Ottomans).

It's more that it didn't work bc Frederick used it as justification to fight the Vatatzes. The fact that noble lords are normally obliged to fight the enemy their kings say are their enemies didn't help.

That was the previous Vatatzes. The Sicilian territories Alexandros took over didn’t have a lot of nobles to begin with as per the OP. It’s Achaea where they gutted the local nobility, who were in a state of ‘rebellion’ against the Angevins. Nevertheless, the Vatatzes actually have a pretty good record of honouring their promises in this timeline unlike Frederick. If they actually promised that the rights of the nobility would be respected, it will likely be believed.

You have to remember that the prior nobles in Eastern Sicily were effectively kicked out too. The Vatatzes were always pro peasant and merchants and anti noble much like the Lascarids before them.

Rather I think it'd be Robert that would benefit from the Vatatzes. The Vatatzes are a group with little allies around who're very much alive due to the graces of Robert, unlike Frederick and their descendants where it've been shown they were ineffective against. Robert could use the Vatatzes to keep his more powerful vassals in line (especially the lords in the Balkans) due to the Vatatzes being powerful enough to crush them, while being able to threaten the Vatatzes while being a figurehead the noble lords can rally with as the Angevins control the pope.

I think the Neapolitan realm would be more fragile than most considering they are ruled by newly introduced foreigners with little legitamacy. A record of having their armies destroyed could easily lead to the ideas that revolts could be successful,especially since there are people with more legitimacy to the throne who have consistently beaten them. Yes, they can recover, but the Angevins will likely take much longer to recover and all those extra defeats incurred in this timeline should actually have an effect on their rule. Having them act exactly like OTL after all the changes and suffer almost no consequences for the subsequent failures however is unrealistic.They should honestly have spent the 10 years since 1302 putting down uprisings and stabilising the kingdom as chapter 22 suggested. If they then go on to march north in 1315 and get massacred as per OTL, it should reignite all the tensions in the kingdom and make it unfeasible to intervene in Sicilian affairs.

I don't think it's as fragile as you think as per otl and what we know from ittl. The Angevins have ruled Naples for three generations (and the Norman conquest no king have been native to Naples/Sicily). It's more that Naples itself still haven't experienced war while the Vatatzes are fighting a two front war with Syracuse only recently being relieved.

 

[Avrorrange]

The Vatatzes not allowing the Pope/Church to put their bishops in 'their' lands is already a big no-no for any Catholic ruler. The Vatatzes being Greek and orthodox are just additional reasons to justify their dislike of the family. Alexandros was excommunicated and I don't think the pope won't do it to Ioannes too when he steps on the throne (or he's already excommunicated bc of his father).

Good point, but then again, these lot didn’t really care about being excommunicated during the Sicilian Vespers either and the Papacy’s influence is now at it’s all time low.

It's more that it didn't work bc Frederick used it as justification to fight the Vatatzes. The fact that noble lords are normally obliged to fight the enemy their kings say are their enemies didn't help.

You have to remember that the prior nobles in Eastern Sicily were effectively kicked out too. The Vatatzes were always pro peasant and merchants and anti noble much like the Lascarids before them.

Eastern Sicily as per the author are crown lands. There were few if any barons to begin with. The nobles that were there were primarily knights. Even in the 1302 battle, the author noted that the Sicilian knights who survived the Angevin purges continued to serve the Vatatzes as per their feudal duties. They cannot be there if the Vatatzes were kicking them out.

Rather I think it'd be Robert that would benefit from the Vatatzes. The Vatatzes are a group with little allies around who're very much alive due to the graces of Robert, unlike Frederick and their descendants where it've been shown they were ineffective against. Robert could use the Vatatzes to keep his more powerful vassals in line (especially the lords in the Balkans) due to the Vatatzes being powerful enough to crush them, while being able to threaten the Vatatzes while being a figurehead the noble lords can rally with as the Angevins control the pope.

I think it would be a mistake to think that way. The Vatatzes by themselves raised more than 14k, including high quality Infantrymen.Should they be allowed to absorb Frederick’s poorly managed realm, they could easily double that force(Frederick by himself raised nearly 10k). That’s not considering the fact that they were likely leaving quite a few troops in Greece. Furthermore, the Vatatzes doesn’t seem to have hired any mercenaries, meaning they could very well raise a much larger force if they wanted. I cannot see how Robert could control a vassal who can raise an army that’s equal if not bigger than his, not to mention actually having a claim on this throne. By comparison, the man only raised 33k troops with help from the Florentines.

I don't think it's as fragile as you think as per otl and what we know from ittl. The Angevins have ruled Naples for three generations (and the Norman conquest no king have been native to Naples/Sicily). It's more that Naples itself still haven't experienced war while the Vatatzes are fighting a two front war with Syracuse only recently being relieved.

Most states, bigger and more established states like France and England, have suffered major civil disturbances after prolonged war and having their armies trashed repeatedly. Even England which didn’t have a lot of fighting within it’s soil had significant tensions with it’s populace after long periods of war. The biggest problem here is that this is exactly how the Angevin state’s portrayed ITTL with a dynasty that just started it’s third generation.Arguably they should already be a fairly terrible shape by the 2nd generation with the 1302 defeat. They are already very lucky that they have survived thus far. ITTL hasn’t actually shown that they were stronger in anyway or have changes necessary to adress the increased external stress brought about by all the butterflies.We were just told that the rulers still attempted the same aggressive policies as OTL.Anyway, we have spent enough time on the subject. We just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Lascaris]

Because sometimes the story writes itself. There is in Chios a medieval church named... Panagia Sikelia, Holy Virgin Sicilian.

 

[galileo-034]

Because sometimes the story writes itself. There is in Chios a medieval church named... Panagia Sikelia, Holy Virgin Sicilian.

What's the story behind? Sicilian Greek refugees or a memory of the Sicilian invasions of the 11th/12th centuries ?

 

[Lascaris]

What's the story behind? Sicilian Greek refugees or a memory of the Sicilian invasions of the 11th/12th centuries ?

Not the slightest idea.

 

[Aristomenes]

What's the story behind? Sicilian Greek refugees or a memory of the Sicilian invasions of the 11th/12th centuries ?

according to this Greek source, the most probable explanation is that it was built by Benedetto Zaccaria , because of his role in the Sicilian Vespers , or because of an icon that he brought from Sicily.

https://www.apan.gr/images/taxidiotiko-imerologio/2014/panagia-i-sikelia/panagia-sikelia.pdf

 

[Lascaris]

Naples, July 1316

Ioannis Doukas Vatatzes looked across the table at his brother in law. Unsurprisingly they had come to a deal. Ioannis would proclaim fealty to Robert, as despot of Sicily. Robert would confirm Ioannis as despot of Sicily, Duke of Calabria and prince of Achaea. And come next year when the truce between Robert and Frederick would end, he would resume the war against Sicily, this time in conjunction with the Vatatzes brothers. The parts of Val di Noto and and Val Demone controlled by Frederick would be passed to the despotate which already controlled most of the territory of the two Valli. Val di Mazara in the west would be directly annexed by Robert. Assuming of course it could be conquered in the first place...

Gela, August 1316

The town fell to the army of Alexios Philanthropinos. With Alexandros dead, some people might have worried about Philanthropinos loyalties. But Alexis was in excellent terms with his nephews and did not forget how much he owned to their father. If Frederick or anyone back in Greece hoped that with Alexandros dead Alexios would turn on the Vatatzes brothers, or the brothers would turn on each other, they were going to be sorely disappointed.

Palermo, August 1316

The night skyline was lit from the fires that burned around the city. Fifty despotate galleys had descended upon the capital of the kingdom. They hadn't bothered with the fortifications, these were likely too strong for them. Instead they had pillaged anything that could be moved and burned down anything that could not be moved. It had hardly been the first raid since the victory in Syracuse. It was hardly going to be the last...

Kos, September 1316

The raiders from Menteshe were chased away by a quartet of Hospitaller galleys. The coastal Turkish emirates and the Catalans had not failed to take advantage of the absence of Theodore's fleet to launch even more raids against the Aegean islands and the Achaean coast than usual. They had not made any permanent gains, Theodore had left the island garrisons behind and the Knights had been true to their word and chased corsairs where and when they could. It was not much of a consolation for the peasants who would go hungry or end in a slave market. It never was.

Corinth, October 1316

Alfonso Fadrique, looked at the dozens of sails bearing the Lascarid double headed eagle approaching from the west with some dismay. He had hopes that after six months of siege the fortress was weakening. But he wasn't going to risk his army now that Theodore was back with God only knew how many Sicilian reinforcements after the defeat of his father back in May. Kantakouzenos was already operating an army out of Argos, skirmishing with his own. As soon as he was joined by Theodore they would likely be too strong for him. The Catalan army retreated to Megaris. Theodore landing in Corinth would give some perfunctory pursue but he did not have his heart in it. Michael Kantakouzenos had died while he was in Sicily and it was not yet known who would replace him as epitropos. In the meantime John Kantakouzenos was not going to march the army his late father had given him to command north of Corinth. Keeping the Catalans out of the Morea was one thing. Helping Theodore Vatatzes grab more land from the Franks another...

Mystras, November 1316

Andronikos Asen became the new epitropos of the Morea. A nephew of emperor Andronikos II from his sister Irene, his assignment appeared to Syracuse to signify the importance the emperor gave to the Peloponnese. It could just as well mean that Andronikos needed to give his namesake some assignment...

Constantinople, April 1317

When Adrianne had been born in 1294, her father Andronikos II had feared the baby girl would die. Thus she had been put under the icons of the twelve apostles with lit candles and the emperor promising she would be named after the apostle whose candle went out first. Fortunately for the baby it had been the candle of apostle Andrew and thus she had been baptized Adrianne. But the luck of the young princess would end there. Her father would marry her at the mere age of 5, and despite the objections of the church to Stefan Uros II Milutin the king of Serbia who was 41 years her senior and had had four previous marriages. Stefan had been a capable king, ostensibly pious, he dedicated one new church for each year of his reign and build the Hilandarion monastery in Mount Athos, who would be proclaimed a saint by the Serb church after his death. But he was also a brutal man who would blind his own son and apparently rape his child bride in the second night of their marriage, despite having promised he would not touch her till she reached puberty. Adrienne would still grow to a very beautiful and graceful young lady despite the abuse she had received by Milutin. Milutin would let her come to the City for the funeral of her mother Irene of Montferrat. But now she refused to return back to Serbia despite the threats coming from Skopje...

Theodore had come to Constantinople to secure the relation of his brother's realm with the empire following Alexandros death. He had been received well by Andronikos and Michael, with Andronikos granting to him as well the tittle of despot as he had done in the past with his brother. Perhaps the emperor hoped to drive a wedge between Theodore and Ioannis, a fruitless effort for all who had tried this so far. Perhaps he just hoped to secure Theodore's good graces and had been impressed by the youn man, he would not bethe first to be, as Theodore had proven very popular with the court and become good friends with Andronikos favorite grandson Andronikos, the elder son and heir apparent of Michael. Perhaps as Theodore at age 27 was still unmarried he could be tied by marriage to the throne, even though Andronikos at the moment did not have any unmarried daughters or granddaughters at the moment.

And then Theodore met Adrianne...

 

[Vince]

This sounds like it will end well for Theodore. Andronikos not so much.

 

[Asriellian]

The despotate potentially getting drawn into a future conflict with the Serbian empire on the same side as the Byzantines wasn't something I would have guessed for this timeline but I've already got my popcorn ready for it (if it does happen that is)

 

[Quinkana]

The despotate potentially getting drawn into a future conflict with the Serbian empire on the same side as the Byzantines wasn't something I would have guessed for this timeline but I've already got my popcorn ready for it (if it does happen that is)

From what lascaris has written about it the Vatatzes will be taking over the empire probably with western Anatolia, killing off the Ottomans before they get too powerful (we probably get the timurids in the rest of Anatolia and the such which would be very interesting).

One thing that'll be very different is that black sea trade to still function ittl unlike how the ottomans killed it in otl (the Europeans being able to reach Asia through the ocean is partially why but not the whole reason why) which would be very interesting.

I wonder how Trebizond and Cilicia are doing ittl too, they still have local rulers which would be amenable to a powerful ERE.

Naples, July 1316

Tbf I'm surprised that Robert's naming them the despots of Sicily especially since despot is a title that didn't exist in Medieval Europe. I thought he'd make them the dukes of Sicily instead, with the 'Prince of Achaea' technically being the highest ranking title they have.

It is a long time coming though, and it being under the shadow of Alexandros' death makes a lot of sense. Unless he isn't killed there was no reason to think reconsolisation wasn't possible.

Kos, September 1316

I wonder would manteshe be the first foothold the Vatatzes have on Anatolia. If the Vatatzes take over Val demone and Val di Noto and rebuild they'd have the capacity to get to Anatolia.

Constantinople, April 1317

I wondered who Theodore would marry after Robert didn't let him marry one of the claimants of the princess of Achaea. It seems like Theodore will be someone with an interesting life afterwards.

Considering that Adrianne is probably infertile due to physical trauma I think it's good for the despotate too: having no alternate claimants on the despotate is always a good thing to have.

 

[Avrorrange]

This Stefan Uros II was a pedophile in real life as well?

 

[Quinkana]

This Stefan Uros II was a pedophile in real life as well?

There are accounts of him consummating the marriage with Adrienne so yeah.

 

[HerodotosofBerlin]

There are accounts of him consummating the marriage with Adrienne so yeah.

Would be cool for theodore to strike him down to revenge his wife.

 

[Quinkana]

Would be cool for theodore to strike him down to revenge his wife.

Yeah it'd deal a blow to the Serbs too. Preventing the Serbian empire from taking Byzantine land would be good for the Vatatzes too, as they become so strong they're becoming one of the players in the Med.

 

[Lascaris]

I wonder how Trebizond and Cilicia are doing ittl too, they still have local rulers which would be amenable to a powerful ERE.

No different than OTL since not otherwise specified.

Tbf I'm surprised that Robert's naming them the despots of Sicily especially since despot is a title that didn't exist in Medieval Europe. I thought he'd make them the dukes of Sicily instead, with the 'Prince of Achaea' technically being the highest ranking title they have.

Philip of Taranto, Robert's brother, was proclaimed despot of Romania in 1297 and so were his sons Philip and Robert after him. So I would not call it a ything extraordinary here.

I wondered who Theodore would marry after Robert didn't let him marry one of the claimants of the princess of Achaea. It seems like Theodore will be someone with an interesting life afterwards.

Robert is in no position legally or otherwise to order the Vatatzes brothers whom to marry or not marry...

This Stefan Uros II was a pedophile in real life as well?

Per Nikephorus Gregoras yes. Some modern Yugoslav historians challenged his writings but the cynic in me notes Milutin is listed 5th most prominent Serb in history so...

Would be cool for theodore to strike him down to revenge his wife.

Either Theodore needs to go north or Milutin to come south for that...

The despotate potentially getting drawn into a future conflict with the Serbian empire on the same side as the Byzantines wasn't something I would have guessed for this timeline but I've already got my popcorn ready for it (if it does happen that is)

If Simonis, sorry Adrianne, elopes with Theodore it would be quite the scandal and Milutin was a cruel, vindictive aggressive man at the best of times. Of course the cynic would ask... what can he really do against the despotate? If he invaded Macedonia to avenge himself Ioannis and Theodore would just shrug its not their land.