The eagle's left head

[Lascaris]

Well if Andronikos III doesn't kill his big brother then the lengthy civil war between him and his grandfather is butterflied away. On the other hand that means more years of Andronikos II rule which arguably is a bigger drawback. Then we have a totally different line taking the throne as both Anndronikos III father and brother survive so things go who knows where.

Manuel was the younger brother. That said died from grief seems to me somewhat chiche. Some underlying health problems, heart ones possibly? likely were around.

So we are safe for the moment. Let's hope that the Despotate has a naval good ally on hand like Genoa for example.

Genoa at this time could go either on the Angevin or the Ghibelline side. Support for both was around. That said Venice's own relation with the despotate is not black and white. Venice may well feel antagonistic to the despotate sure. But by the same token may well fear more that Catalan takeover of the duchy of Athens, after all behind the duchy lies the Aragonese empire which is a Venetian maritime rival...

Wait governing in the name of his father? Isn't Achaea dowry of Ioannes's wife? So technically he is the new prince of Achaea? Or were the holdings transferred to the Empire after the war?

Yes technically the principality of Achaea is Ioannis dowry. The Angevins also probably take this seriously... when it's convenient to them. Byzantine derived states on the other hand? In practical terms house Vatatzes is treating or trying to treat at least their domains as a unitary state.

What would be the time the Venetians strike?

1350? Who can know?

And from this the Despotate is officially independent from the whims of kings and popes. I'm pretty sure Robert would encourage the Vatatzes in their stint in neutrality because not having Frederick's armies in Calabria and the Strait of Messina would be a god send.

Technically it is not but we shall see what we shall see.

Thats the setup for the Battle of Amorgos, which seems to have been a lucky chance for the Knights coming upon the Turks while beached, hopefully it goes the same way here, being a big Knights Hospitaller fan.

I'll only note that Amorgos NOW belongs to the despotate.

"Katepano of Hellas" is an interesting title. Hellas is vague enough to include all the greek fiefs of Vatatzes. And it might mean a potential claim over the old Theme of Hellas, currently ruled by those pesky Catalans.

And upgrading katepano for such an illustrious position? Since Alexandros is a despot, surely he cannot have a despot's despot, so katepano makes perfect sense. In a sense, it is a return to Macedonian-era offices. It is interesting that Alexandros is looking at this era for inspiration.

Well it does tickle my sense of irony to have someone administrating Greece on behalf of a Sicilian state being titled a katepano, given that was usually the title of the Byzantine viceroy of Italy. But there is also a very real problem Alexandros has to deal with... what title you give your viceroy in Greece, and you likely need one? Despot, Sebastokrator and caesar is out of the question, they are dynastic titles and the last thing you want is your viceroy to get ideas of turning his domain into an independent state. Megaas domestikos and Megas Doux are inappropriate, nevermind that Philanthropenos has the first title sewn in for life. Strategos is too low. So invent a new one as Andronikos did with Epitropos or resurrect katepano.

By the way, what about the syracusan fortifications? What about the Plemmyrion Cape that controls the entrance to the great harbor?

The not... very advertised assumption is Alexandros effectively rebuilt the old fortifications from the time of Dionysius and Archimedes. Apparently parts of these were still around at the time of Charles V when Syracuse's fortifications were rebuilt and later it was thought a missed opportunity that the reconstruction was not based on them. If they were still around in the early 1500s they are also around in the early 1300s...

I would argue that the Vatatzes domains are something of a best case scenario for the Pope and the Council of Lyon re-unification attempt: here we have a "Greek" ruler supporting/not denying the end of the Schism and propping up the Basilian orders which are Catholic. The Pope should just stop supporting the Angevins dynastic claims against Alexandros and release the interdict(if he has not already) while calling on the Byzantines to duplicate what Alexandros is doing.

That's not altogether wrong. Of course the papacy at the moment is under ehm "considerable" French influence. On the third hand Robert was by all accounts a very clever man and the situation in Sicily is at the time evolving to his interest. Why directly antagonize Alexandros if Frederick will manage to push him in hos direction?

 

[Andristan]

I'll only note that Amorgos NOW belongs to the despotate.

Seeing as in OTL the Knights attempted to swear some kind of fealty to the Byzantine Emperor in return for Rhodes, perchance TTL they would consider doing the same to the large naval power that is in their vicinity and has a claim-ish on Rhodes. . .

 

[galileo-034]

On the third hand Robert was by all accounts a very clever man and the situation in Sicily is at the time evolving to his interest. Why directly antagonize Alexandros if Frederick will manage to push him in hos direction?

Indeed, never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake. So far, Robert father's calculations seem to be working to their intended advantage.
Just curious to see how this play out in Epirus where we left Philip of Taranto last time if I remember right. Ioannis' support was minimal back then; how now ?

 

[Xenophonte]

I'll only note that Amorgos NOW belongs to the despotate.

Seeing as in OTL the Knights attempted to swear some kind of fealty to the Byzantine Emperor in return for Rhodes, perchance TTL they would consider doing the same to the large naval power that is in their vicinity and has a claim-ish on Rhodes. . .

Now would be interesting if, alongside or in place of the Beylik of Menteshe, ITTL Genoa would decide that would be more useful to seek the assistance of the Despotate. And negotiate an alliance and/or provide the same or similar OTL financial incentive for that the new Aegean naval and land power 'd attack to Hospitallers Rhodes...

 

[X Oristos]

Now would be interesting if, alongside or in place of the Beylik of Menteshe, ITTL Genoa would decide that would be more useful to seek the assistance of the Despotate. And negotiate an alliance and/or provide the same or similar OTL financial incentive for that the new Aegean naval and land power 'd attack to Hospitallers Rhodes...

That's a very interesting thought.

It was 1311 when Spinola arrived to Rhodes to demand compensation. After the Order's refusal he went to Menteshe to bribe them to attack the Hospitallers, which they did in 1312. What is certain that Spinola contacted the Turks before Alexandros broke off with Frederick. From a certain point of view it would make sense for Spinola to contact Alexandros, since his family was the foremost Ghibelline family of Genoa and Alexandros was the grandson of Frederick II and a leader who fought the Angevins for 20 years.

I find it very pausible that the Genoese Ghibellines would approach Alexandros before summer 1312. Afterwards, things change.

 

[Lascaris]

Plus, these have also been three years without having to pay for a war from Sicily and Calabria's coffers, so back home as well it must have had a significant impact to see the conquest achieved, the burdern on the treasury relieved and the revenue from trade between Sicily, Calabria and Hellas (Peloponnese and Aegean islands included) flowing in.

Enough of a revenue surplus for large scale public works (cough, Messine fortifications cough). Alexandros inherited both a good starting position and comes from a line of rather good administrators. Besides Lascarid policies are fitting pretty well with the Sicilian situation arguably.

I forgot also to ask, but besides the number of Frankish nobles killed at Mantinea, how many have been captured and ransomed ? I understand ransoming nobles was a practice back then, ransom money that could be used then to fund further military operations.

A fair bit. Quite a lot of the speed of the collapse of the Frankish position in Greece after Mantineia has to do with this and ransoms being also land at least occasionally. And these Sicilian fleets roaming around were not exactly shy about raiding.

@Lascaris , what would you say has been evoluting since 1306 the cost of campaigning in Achaea, the revenue generated in proportion to the land conquered/liberated (more conquest means more land, and more people, ie more taxes, but that is without accounting in economic disruption caused by the war)?

The campaign in the Morea was costing the despotate something in the order of 200,000 ducats a year. On the other hand a fair bit of it was costs house Vatatzes would be incurring in the first place. Alexandros would be still paying for a standing army whether said standing army was on campaign or not.

And what about the potential new revenues that would be generated once the war is over, mostly from the new trade network that would span across the Ionian sea between Syracuse, Messina and Hellas (Aegean islands included) within the expanded Vatatzes domains (not to mention the potential for captating some trade from Constantinople and the Black Sea)? Any trade agreement with the Basileus that could boost Sicilian fortunes against Genoese and Venitian competition ?

Chios is arguably the crown jewel of the Vatatzes possessions. In OTL it was making for the Genoese Maona 86,000 ducats a year thanks to the mastic production. TTL it has even more potential arguably, again in OTL its population by 1821 it had grown from fewer than 15,000 at the time of the Ottoman conquest to around 120,000.

It seems to me as the work on Messina fortifications and in the shipyards of Syracuse is indicative of the state of the Despotate's economy after the end of the War of Achaea (even though the update only mentions the decade of peace in Sicily, I guess ship construction is very much tied to a thriving sea trade, which could be happening with the conquest of Achaea achieved , EDIT : Implicit being that this conquest in Peloponnese and the Aegean would be accompanied by less trade barriers and taxes for merchants from Sicily, and from Morean and Aegean merchants in Sicily as well, in a preference scheme by the Vatatzes within their own realms ).

And higher tariffs on traders from outside. Not overwhelmingly higher but for certain Sicily has NOT made trade concessions the the Italian maritime cities and I would short of doubt Alexandros would want to.

 

[Quinkana]

Yes technically the principality of Achaea is Ioannis dowry. The Angevins also probably take this seriously... when it's convenient to them. Byzantine derived states on the other hand? In practical terms house Vatatzes is treating or trying to treat at least their domains as a unitary state.

I don't think Epirus and Thessaly would see the realms of the Vatatzes other than a potential competitor and be weary of Vatatzes expansion. I'd think that the Epirotes and Thessalians would have closer problems at home tho.

1350? Who can know?

Hmm the Despotate fighting with the Genoese against the Venetians would be very interesting. I do think the Despotate wouldn't want both republics to grow too powerful in their neighborhood, so them switching sides isn't out of the question too.

I'll only note that Amorgos NOW belongs to the despotate.

I do hope they keep it.

Why directly antagonize Alexandros if Frederick will manage to push him in hos direction?

Yeah, I'd think it's likely that Alexandros would be forced to work with the Angevins because Frederick attacks the Despotate. Tbf with most of Morea and Calabria idk if Frederick can take the Vatatzes without other ppl's help

The not... very advertised assumption is Alexandros effectively rebuilt the old fortifications from the time of Dionysius and Archimedes.

That makes sense, the ruins are still there and ppl would usually just take the stone away for other projects anyway, so using them as the foundations for new fortifications would make sense.

Seeing as in OTL the Knights attempted to swear some kind of fealty to the Byzantine Emperor in return for Rhodes, perchance TTL they would consider doing the same to the large naval power that is in their vicinity and has a claim-ish on Rhodes. . .

Tbf I could see the Vatatzes doing that if it's needed, but otherwise it isn't something Alexandros would do. Rather, I think he'd be like to take Rhodes for himself.

Now would be interesting if, alongside or in place of the Beylik of Menteshe, ITTL Genoa would decide that would be more useful to seek the assistance of the Despotate. And negotiate an alliance and/or provide the same or similar OTL financial incentive for that the new Aegean naval and land power 'd attack to Hospitallers Rhodes...

Probably, I do think it's a possibility considering that the Genoese and the despotate are nominal allies.

Tbf considering the sizes and economic power of the Anatolian Beyliks I wonder could the Vatatzes just take over some of the Beyliks. It'd be appropriate for the Lascarids to take the lands that were the most loyal to them after all.

And higher tariffs on traders from outside. Not overwhelmingly higher but for certain Sicily has NOT made trade concessions the the Italian maritime cities and I would short of doubt Alexandros would want to.

I don't think the Vatatzes would antagonise the Genoese too much at least, their nominal alliance is good against Venice, so the Genoese getting some preferential trading rights makes sense. Ofc the traders that're of the despotate gets the best deal, but yeah.

Tbf I wonder what'll characters like Ionius Kantakouzenos would be ittl. Ionius went with the Moreotes which went to fight the Franks against the Emperor's orders, which should incur consequences that otl Ionius Kantakouzenos defo didn't have to deal with. Would he be banished to Sicily in the Katepanate, and would he be one of the servants of the Despote of Sicily instead?

 

[galileo-034]

I don't think the Vatatzes would antagonise the Genoese too much at least, their nominal alliance is good against Venice, so the Genoese getting some preferential trading rights makes sense. Ofc the traders that're of the despotate gets the best deal, but yeah.

And the local traders? Merchants from Messina and Chios have the opportunity of enjoying a space with little internal trade barriers from Sicily to the North Aegean, and perhaps even Constantinople, under the aegis of House Vatatzes, one they had not IOTL.
Through this, Alexandros and Ioannis after him are poised to enable the rise of their own merchants into potential rivals to either Genoa or Venice. Capable as they are, I hardly see why they would sacrifice this by granting concessions to Genoa that would nip that in the bud, especially as I don't see the Vatatzes forgetting the role of Italian maritime republics in the declining fortunes of the Byzantine Empire and the importance not to rely on them.

By the way, @Lascaris, what are the main exports of Vatatzes' Hellas that would flow west into European markets ? I remember vaguely from another thread something about silk being produced somewhere in the vicinity.

 

[Quinkana]

And the local traders? Merchants from Messina and Chios have the opportunity of enjoying a space with little internal trade barriers from Sicily to the North Aegean, and perhaps even Constantinople, under the aegis of House Vatatzes, one they had not IOTL.
Through this, Alexandros and Ioannis after him are poised to enable the rise of their own merchants into potential rivals to either Genoa or Venice. Capable as they are, I hardly see why they would sacrifice this by granting concessions to Genoa that would nip that in the bud, especially as I don't see the Vatatzes forgetting the role of Italian maritime republics in the declining fortunes of the Byzantine Empire and the importance not to rely on them.

Yeah that is true, the Vatatzes' priorities are to it's ppl, not it's allies. The fact that the Venetians crippled the Empire would make Alexandros have misgivings in giving them concessions. The ascendency of Genoa in the Black sea and their build up of Galata would make the Vatatzes weary of Genoa in general.

By the way, @Lascaris, what are the main exports of Vatatzes' Hellas that would flow west into European markets ? I remember vaguely from another thread something about silk being produced somewhere in the vicinity.

Morea itself is a silk producer, and Greece, Bulgaria and Anatolia could produce silk, it's more about if it's exploited or not. I do think Alexandros and his heirs would encourage it at the very least.

 

[galileo-034]

Morea itself is a silk producer, and Greece, Bulgaria and Anatolia could produce silk, it's more about if it's exploited or not. I do think Alexandros and his heirs would encourage it at the very least.

I was thinking also of the potential of the Vatatzes using their advantages in production and transportation, ie trade, to undercut competition. If Messinese merchants can buy and sell Morean silk at lower rates than competitors, they would have an advantage in western european markets other maritime republics don't have as they have to procure it through more intermediaries, ie with more taxes levied on the way by local rulers.

 

[Quinkana]

I was thinking also of the potential of the Vatatzes using their advantages in production and transportation, ie trade, to undercut competition. If Messinese merchants can buy and sell Morean silk at lower rates than competitors, they would have an advantage in western european markets other maritime republics don't have as they have to procure it through more intermediaries, ie with more taxes levied on the way by local rulers.

Tbf it's very possible for the Vatatzes merchant navy to undercut the merchant republics by doing so, the main competitor in this sense would be Chinese silks which would benefit from the scale of production China does and may be cheaper than equivalent Vatatzes silks.

I do think mastic from Chios and the silver mines from Calabria are the other main sources of wealth for the Vatatzes other than taxes they take from the peasants, merchants, and their vassals.

 

[galileo-034]

the main competitor in this sense would be Chinese silks which would benefit from the scale of production China does and may be cheaper than equivalent Vatatzes silks.

The economy of scale is only valuable if the cost of transportation, taxes included, all the way from China, doesn't make it more expansive than Greek silk on arrival.
Plus the peace and expanded trade network and internal market existing within the Vatatzes realm is likely to stimulate a resurgence and scaling up of local production for export purposes.

 

[Quinkana]

The economy of scale is only valuable if the cost of transportation, taxes included, all the way from China, doesn't make it more expansive than Greek silk on arrival.
Plus the peace and expanded trade network and internal market existing within the Vatatzes realm is likely to stimulate a resurgence and scaling up of local production for export purposes.

Tbf that's true, silk production died off in Europe because of industrial revolution making cotton much cheaper and undercutting silk production. It'd probably be good for the Vatatzes to have this source of income at least.

 

[Aristomenes]

If the Despotate could add the alum mines in Phocaea in its realm the added revenues would be substantial. I can't remember if ITTL Phocaea is still at the hands of the Zaccaria family or not (it was given to them IOTL as a fief from Andronikos II Palaiologos)

 

[Quinkana]

If the Despotate could add the alum mines in Phocaea in its realm the added revenues would be substantial. I can't remember if ITTL Phocaea is still at the hands of the Zaccaria family or not (it was given to them IOTL as a fief from Andronikos II Palaiologos)

Considering that the Genoese didn't take over chios and kos I think phocaea would just be in ere jurisdiction at this point. I do think there's a possibility that Alexandros or Ionius Ioannes convinces Andronikos to give phocaea to them tho.

 

[goumaister]

Ionius

why? Ioannes
I am really thinking that you are write his name wrong on purpose .

 

[Quinkana]

why? Ioannes
I am really thinking that you are write his name wrong on purpose .

Tbf it's because idk how to spell the name really

 

[Quinkana]

Tbf considering Maud is in Naples could Alexandros persuade Robert to wed Maud with Theodore?

 

[Lascaris]

Neopatras (Ypati), July 1312

Bernat I, duke of Athens led his army in an invasion of Thessaly. John II sebastokrator and ruler of Thessaly was considered, not without reason as a weak ruler and the Catalans were aggressive and hungry for more land, the duchy did not suffice for all of them and large numbers of their former Turkish allies had left them to return to Anatolia or take up service with the Serb king when Bernat had did not have enough money to pay for all of them. But still the Catalan army, was 5,000 strong and too formidable for most opponents. By winter the Catalans would be in control of no less that 30 forts all over Thessaly.

Off Amorgos, August 1312

The Genoese envoys had first gone to Rhodes demanding compensation for the ships taken by the Knights. When refused by the Knights they had sailed back to Corinth offering Theodore 50,000 florins to take to the sea against the Hospitallers. When turned down by Theodore they had gone to Mesud bey of Menteshe. Mesud had felt no compunctions about getting paid to attack Rhodes, in all likelihood he would had attacked the island even unpaid. And thus war had returned to the Aegean. With Genoese, Menteshe and the Knights raiding each other and every merchant ship in sight Theodore had taken to see as well, Hospitaller attacks on the despotate's domains could not be left unanswered nor could the despotate's new found island possessions be left undefended alienating their populations.

And thus Theodore had found himself outside Amorgos at the head of 25 galleys. His scouts had reported the presence of the Hospitaller fleet with 26 galleys under Albert von Schwarzburg. But they had also reported that Mesud's fleet had landed in the island. And this was not something to be taken lightly. Amorgos was part of the despotate. And thus Theodore had offered to parley...

Albert von Schwarzburg looked critically at the young man in front of him.

"So you are proposing that you schismatics, yes I know your father pretends to believe the union back in 1274 still holds, join forces with us and attack the Turks instead?"

"First work then fun. Schismatic or not schismatic we are all Christian. Fighting the Turk should take precedence should it not?"

"And then?"

"Then we can kill each other at our leisure. Or not. The order took over Rhodes as a base to continue fighting the Muslims have you not? You even offered to become vassals of the emperor, and if you think my father a schismatic, then you were offering to become vassals of the arch-schismatic were you not? Perhaps we can find common ground. Or not. Lets fight together today and we shall see."

Albert shook his head and then shook hands with the youngster.

History would write that not a single Turkish ship survived the ensuing battle of Amorgos.

Syracuse, January 1313

"His majesty orders you one last time as your lawful sovereign to join with the imperial forces"

"I get Frederick has learned nothing of the failure of Henry to take Florence back in October. Has he?"

"What his majesty learns or not is not for you duke to decide. Will you follow his orders or not?"

"Despot." Alexandros absentmindedly noted.

"I beg your pardon?"

"Despot of Sicily. One would had hoped that after 35 years you people would had learned so much?"

Francesco Ventimiglia, count of Geraci, wasn't much bothered. "No duke. Who am I to disagree. Will you follow his majesty's orders? Yes or no?"

"No."

Francesco turned around without a word and left. But the smile in his face could not be missed. His county was bordering Alexandros lands. When the king finally dealt with the pretentious Greek his family, already one of the most influential in the kingdom along with the Chiaramonte was bound to gain. Gain a lot.

Naples, January 1313

"You do understand I hope, that the position of my father is delicate." Ioannis Doukas Vatatzes noted to his brother in law.

"I don't see why you would say so. He is vassal to the idiot in Palermo for his holdings in Sicily, vassal to me for his holdings in Calabria and you are vassal to me for the principality of Achaea, even though your administration of it is highly irregular. Oh and technically both of you are vassals to the emperor in Constantinople. And I'll be damn if you feel bound to any of us. I'm certain Alexandros can fight against himself, where would be the problem."

Ioannis politely smiled at Robert's quip and sipped from his wine as he waited.

"Very well. You can tell Alexandros I won't be complicating his life this time. As long as you people remain strictly neutral I'll be more than happy."

Pisa, April 26th, 1313

The imperial court sentenced Robert I of Anjou to death. Outside from the emperor outright proclaiming war on the Angevins and also bringing himself into open conflict with the papacy, who's jurists refused the right of the emperor to proclaim sentences against Robert who was the pope's direct vassal it meant nothing. The fate of Robert and Italy would be determined in the battlefield.

Fontainebleau, July 29th, 1313

Philip I of Taranto, married Catherine of Courtenay, titular empress of Constantinople. Hugh V duke of Burgundy, who was originally betrothed to Catherine would instead be betrothed to Joan of France, with his sister Joan marrying instead Catherine's brother Philip of Valois and the house of Burgundy receiving 40,000 livres from the Anjou's.

Buonconvento, Italy, August 24th, 1313

Emperor Henry VII had finally begun his campaign against Naples two weeks earlier leading an army of 15,000 including 4,000 knights while at sea a joint Sicilian-Pisan fleet, including Genoese Ghibelline ships was led by Frederick III in person against Naples. But the German army had been delayed till August by having to put Siena under siege. By the time the imperials finally marched down the army was being ravaged by malaria including Henry. Henry would succumb to it along many of his soldiers...

 

[DracoLazarus]

I chuckled at the "first work, then fun" quip.
Maybe the hospitalers may pay homage to the Despot ?