The eagle's left head

Nice to have a proper description of Theodore. If anything he seems like an asset for his dynasty. Kantakouzenos is in a tough spot. If he declines his assistance, his authority can be undermined. His officers have noticed the trend of the past four years with the destruction of the frankish status quo. They know that Ioannis' victory means a lot of pronoias being available for the officers of his army and heir families. Likewise, the peasants of Laconia would stir to help their fellow brethren, especially since they will get the opportunity to sack estates of frankish barons.
 
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This is a juicy and long awaited update indeed!!
Nice meeting the younger Vatatzes who seems charismatic as well. I wonder if the brothers have any rivalries between them or if Theodore is an ambitious fellow. It would be a nice dynamic if the young one gets the duchy of Athens under the imperial administration as Ioannis has the islands and Morea, minus Laconia. On the other hand if Kantakouzenos helps he would get a piece of Morea as well or Athens depending on the negotiations.
I don't know why but the stalemate in Epirus for Phillip of Taranto gives vibes that he might join Guy de la Roche or at least give some reinforcements undercover to stop the Vatatzes tide that is sweeping Morea.
On the other hand the Despotate's forces have takes 3 years of attrition in this war and Alexandros has just betting everything in this last push. Maybe some barons get some ideas back in Sicily and probe the pronoia defenses for some church looting that was denied to them when the professional was around some years back.
Also the siege of Rhodes continues or has the Vatatzes help expelled the knights completely??
 
Why would he? Philip may not be quite happy about the state of affairs in Achaea, but Ioannis has been formally supporting his brother-in-law's efforts in Epirus, even if he did only dispatch Orsini, and even if Ioannis has been extreme about the declaring all barons in revolt, he is technically in his right, so there is no much opening for Philip to actively undermine the Vatatzes.
I'd say that from the Angevin point of view, the Vatatzes army being stuck for three years in Achaea is undermining the Despotate just as well, and put them in an incomfortable position between Palermo and Naples, which is just the best King Charles may have hoped for with this poisonous gift.

And as we speak of Rhodes and reflecting on Lascaris' remark about the relations between Hospitalers, the Avignon popes and the Vatatzes family, I surmise sooner or later, the Hospitalers might very well enter the fray in Achaea; if Ioannis has not yet intervened to relieve Rhodes, the Pope and the Hospitalers meddling in Achaea may just push him to go for it.
 
And as we speak of Rhodes and reflecting on Lascaris' remark about the relations between Hospitalers, the Avignon popes and the Vatatzes family, I surmise sooner or later, the Hospitalers might very well enter the fray in Achaea; if Ioannis has not yet intervened to relieve Rhodes, the Pope and the Hospitalers meddling in Achaea may just push him to go for it.
tbf if the vatatzes wins against guy ii de la roche's army I don't think the Hospitalers would do much considering that Frankish Greece is effectively dead at this point. Other than the Hospitalers attempting to take back all of Frankish Greece idk what they can do at this point.
 
tbf if the vatatzes wins against guy ii de la roche's army I don't think the Hospitalers would do much considering that Frankish Greece is effectively dead at this point. Other than the Hospitalers attempting to take back all of Frankish Greece idk what they can do at this point.
Assuming they are perfectly reasonable or rational actors, and not wannabe crusaders indulging in piracy...
 
Assuming they are perfectly reasonable or rational actors, and not wannabe crusaders indulging in piracy...
yeah true... I think there is a high possibility that they're trying to be crusaders and failing miserably, but considering Vatatzes' navy I think they can take them at sea.
 
Ooh this seems to be very nice! If the Frankish army is destroyed with or without Kantakozenous (he probably would come) Frankish Greece (with the exception of Epirus) is practically in the hands of the Vatatzes. I'm really interested in seeing how the Roman Empire and the other powers react to it, and how the Ottomans continue to move against the ERE.
If the Frankish army is destroyed. Now even if it's not destroyed Frankish Greece by this point is already in decline, the despotate of Sicily is pushing it down even harder that OTL
Nice to have a proper description of Theodore. If anything he seems like an asset for his dynasty. Kantakouzenos is in a tough spot. If he declines his assistance, his authority can be undermined. His officers have noticed the trend of the past four years with the destruction of the frankish status quo. They know that Ioannis' victory means a lot of pronoias being available for the officers of his army and heir families. Likewise, the peasants of Laconia would stir to help their fellow brethren, especially since they will get the opportunity to sack estates of frankish barons.
Of course Kantakouzenos is not an independent actor. If order from Constantinople tell him to do nothing... then what are his options? Follow them or revolt...
This is a juicy and long awaited update indeed!!
Nice meeting the younger Vatatzes who seems charismatic as well. I wonder if the brothers have any rivalries between them or if Theodore is an ambitious fellow.
That's for now is something for me to know. :angel:
It would be a nice dynamic if the young one gets the duchy of Athens under the imperial administration as Ioannis has the islands and Morea, minus Laconia. On the other hand if Kantakouzenos helps he would get a piece of Morea as well or Athens depending on the negotiations.
I don't know why but the stalemate in Epirus for Phillip of Taranto gives vibes that he might join Guy de la Roche or at least give some reinforcements undercover to stop the Vatatzes tide that is sweeping Morea.
Philip may not be... altogether happy with what his brother in law is doing but if he joins up with the duchy of Athens it means restarting war with the despotate of Sicily back home. Or at a minimum defeating all hopes of Angevin diplomacy of possibly using the despotate as a wedge against the kingdom of Sicily.
On the other hand the Despotate's forces have takes 3 years of attrition in this war and Alexandros has just betting everything in this last push. Maybe some barons get some ideas back in Sicily and probe the pronoia defenses for some church looting that was denied to them when the professional was around some years back.
Also the siege of Rhodes continues or has the Vatatzes help expelled the knights completely??
What is he going to be gaining from jumping into that war?

Assuming they are perfectly reasonable or rational actors, and not wannabe crusaders indulging in piracy...
One might note that within the first five years they attacked aside from the Byzantines, the Turkish emirates, Venice AND Genoa. The last two simultaneously and while the Genoese had just helped the knights take Rhodes...
 
If the Frankish army is destroyed. Now even if it's not destroyed Frankish Greece by this point is already in decline, the despotate of Sicily is pushing it down even harder that OTL
Yeah I think Frankish Greece's days are numbered, the question here is who takes over at the end. Hopefully the Vatatzes will be able to take over Frankish Greece (from Athens to Morea is good)
Of course Kantakouzenos is not an independent actor. If order from Constantinople tell him to do nothing... then what are his options? Follow them or revolt...
I think Kantakouzenos revolting (or his son) would make quite a lot of sense. They do gain a lot from revolting after all, its more whether the Vatatzes could shelter them or not. The Vatatzes are still nominally vassals of the Emperor after all...
One might note that within the first five years they attacked aside from the Byzantines, the Turkish emirates, Venice AND Genoa. The last two simultaneously and while the Genoese had just helped the knights take Rhodes...
breaking the knights is a good thing, and I defo hope the Vatatzes would calm down after their conquering spree and consolidate. At least build a navy that can contest the Venetians, since control over the waves is something the Vatatzes would need for their holdings to stay under their control, especially as empires rise and fall in Anatolia for the forseeable future.

tbf I find it pretty funny that the vatatzes is a king in all but name but is a vassal to two kings and an emperor. It'd defo be something their enemies ridicule them with and I can see them wear their status as despots/dukes with pride.
 
Part 29
Mystras, August 2nd, 1308

The youngster had convinced him, Michael Kantakouzenos admitted to himself. Had the messengers from Constantinople not arrived just in the proverbial nick of time he would had marched north to join Alexandros sons. But the messengers had arrived. And the orders of his serenity the Faithful to Christ the God, basileus of the Romans, written in Andronicus own hand were crystal clear. Michael was to stay neutral. He should not aid the Franks but under no circumstances was he to march to the aid of Vatatzes either, the Franks were less of a danger than a potentially rival emperor with the wealth of half of Sicily behind him. That the order to stay put was unpopular hre was something of an understatement. It was no accident that his own son was right this moment on his way to join the army of Philanthropenos...

Mantineia, August 15th, 1308

Almost 17 centuries had passed since the day the armies of the Greek states had fought the battle that was supposed to decide the fate of Greece only for Epaminondas to fall on the field at the time of victory. The armies now drawn on the battlefield were but a fraction of the size of the ancient ones and it was questionable whether Guy II De La Roche knew he was bringing his army to battle in the same area with the ancient battlefields. Whther he knew or not the history was though irrelevant. Now that the Greeks had finally stood to offer battle he would give it to them before his illness got worse and before his feudatories, already in the field well beyond the customary 40 days their feudal obligations gave him, start to find excuses to leave for their homes. He send his Catalan mercenaries forward to disrupt the Greek lines ahead of his cavalry.

"Last chance! Will you fight your own comrades?" Ioannis Doukas Vatatzes shouted in fluent Catalan at the onrushing mercenaries.

"Awake Iron!" the Almogavar battle cry was the only answer he got as he turned his horse back to join his own soldiers. Not a moment passed before over a thousand crossbowmen let loose their first volley. Many Catalans fell the rest kept charging hoping to get close to the crossbowmen before they could lose a second volley. But the crossbowmen were being protected by spearmen of their own. The pikes they carried were no different than the Catalans own coutell spears, after all Philanthropenos had copied the Catalans three years ago. But by now his men were armored and trained to fight in close order unlike the Catalans.

Guy cursed as he saw the Catalans break and run away. At least he wouldn't have to pay the bastards. But his knights would have to break the Greek squares holding the enemy center the hard way. So be it. He led the van forward into the hail of crossbow bolts his own infantry following behind and holding the flanks against the Greeks stradioti. Somewhat to his surprise the Greeks held back the first charge. Undaunted his knights unleashed a second charge. Then a third. The damn villeins might have wavered when his horse was killed under him and he fell to the ground. A hale knight might still stand upright and mount his horse, after all mounting his horse on his own while in full armor was one of a knight's tests. But Guy was ill and feverish and in the thick of the fight from the start. He fainted as he fell. Worse luck the Allagion commander opposite him noticed and rushed his soldiers forward. As the cry that the duke was down was raised the Franks wavered. Then Philanthropenos unleashed his own heavy cavalry under Theodore at the wavering Franks and their line broke...

Mantineia, August 16th, 1308

Guy II De La Roche barely managed to open his eyes despite the best efforts of the doctors. The two Vatatzes brothers exchanged a look between them and left the tent. They knew enough to understand the poor man would likely not survive the night. It was slightly unfortunate, the duke would be worth quite a ransom but it didn't really matter. The Latin army had been routed and their Stratiotai were still pursuing its remnants just as the Greek peasantry attacked stragglers. The Achaean castles were still standing but it would be years before Latin Greece would be able to raise any short of army.

Dafni monastery, Attica, October 5th, 1308

Guy II was interred in the crypt along with his forefathers. Seven weeks had passed since the disaster at Mantineia. Vostitza had surrender at the news without a fight as soon as the despotate's army had reached it. In Patras, Raynier, the Latin archbishop was made of sterner stuff and had refused to surrender but was under siege from both land and sea. Michael Kantakouzenos on news of the defeat had freely interpreted his emperors wishes and marched his own army to besiege Nauplion and Argos. Ioannis as soon as Guy was dead had send his brother with the body and peace feelers to Athens. The proposal was simple. Theodore was to marry Maud and become despot of Athens. Or the war could continue. Gossip said the young widow had gotten enamored with Theodore and if it was up to her would had accepted the proposal. But the Achaean High Court had not. They had decreed that heir to the duke was not his widow but his cousin Walter V of Brienne and for good measure had shipped Maud off to Naples in a Venetian ship.

Neopatras, Thessaly, October 10th, 1308

John II Angelos Doukas ordered his forces to eject the Athenian garrisons from Thessaly. Guy II, his fathers uncle, had been acting as his regent since he had come to the throne as a child in 1303. But with Guy dead, his bailli Anthony le Flamenc back to Athens trying to hold the duchy together till Walter came and himself just barely of age there was little reason to keep as an Athenian protectorate...

Kassandreia, October 15th, 1308

Bernat de Rocafort thought carefully over the news from the south. The Catalans after pillaging Thrace had moved west to Macedonia hoping to get more loot. They had already raided Thessaly and looted the monasteries of Mount Athos. But the Catalans were growing weary and wanted somewhere to settle down while Berat had ambitions. Big ambitions. The duchy of Athens was up there for the pickings. The Catalan company would march south as soon as weather allowed...
 
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Mantineia, August 16th, 1308

Guy II De La Roche barely managed to open his eyes despite the best efforts of the doctors. The two Vatatzes brothers exchanged a look between them and left the tent. They knew enough to understand the poor man would likely not survive the night. It was slightly unfortunate, the duke would be worth quite a ransom but it didn't really matter. The Latin army had been routed and their Stratiotai were still pursuing its remnants just as the Greek peasantry attacked stragglers. The Achaean castles were still standing but it would be years before Latin Greece would be able to raise any short of army.
And with this Frankish Greece is dead, and the Greeks would take all of Achaea while the ERE takes Laconia (and I can defo see an emperor giving control of Laconia over to the Vatatzes). I think Phillip at first won't want Theodore to marry Maud at first, but when the Catalans come in from Kassandriea to take over the Duchy of Athens I can see the Vatatzes basically float this idea so some of the nobles would be protected by them. Or we see the Vatatzes lead an army against the Catalans and have Theodore marry Maud as the legal reason why Athens is theirs.

Tbf I wonder if we'd get some Catalan influence in Despotate held Greece and Sicily ittl. They've been used as good soldiers and they should be settled in the areas the despotate has control over, and I can see them affecting the weapons culture of the Despotate (seax esque blades would probably be used alongside parameions and we'd see a mixture of both types of swords) and considering we're getting something resembling drill from Philentropenos to combat cavalry I definitely see the despotate going far, even as the Empire buckles and falls and we get different ppl attempting to take over the empire.
 
The proposal was simple. Theodore was to marry Maud and become despot of Athens. Or the war could continue.
for good measure had shipped Maud off to Naples in a Venetian ship.
well, I would guess that the Athens despotat Frankish rulers would soon be faced with a two front war and/or will be forced to reconsider previous heritage arrangement and attempt to get that the Sicilians help them to salvage something from their holding or anyway be disposed and murdered by the Catalan company invaders...
Tbf I wonder if we'd get some Catalan influence in Despotate held Greece and Sicily ittl.
Well, according to the battle description, appear that already were influenced even if it seems that was an imitative one...
The pikes they carried were no different than the Catalans own coutell spears, after all Philanthropenos had copied the Catalans three years ago. But by now his men were armored and trained to fight in close order unlike the Catalans.

But the Catalans were growing weary and wanted somewhere to settle down while Berat had ambitions. Big ambitions. The duchy of Athens was up there for the pickings. The Catalan company would march south as soon as weather allowed...
 
well, I would guess that the Athens despotat Frankish rulers would soon be faced with a two front war and/or will be forced to reconsider previous heritage arrangement and attempt to get that the Sicilians help them to salvage something from their holding or anyway be disposed and murdered by the Catalan company invaders...
We know that they can't really raise armies after this while the Catalans and the Vatatzes can. It probably be a tossup between them as to who gets the duchy of Athens.
Well, according to the battle description, appear that already were influenced even if it seems that was an imitative one...
Yeah definitely.

I wonder would we have some genetic and linguistic influence too. They are a group that the vatatzes are relying heavily on...
 
I find the Athenian nobles more likely will accept the Catalans as they see them as fellow Catholics and not the schismatic and peasant loving Greek Vatatzes. Now it's a race between the Catalans and the Despotates to get as much out of Athens as possible. The fact that Roman Morea will get expanded into the fertile Argolis plain is good for their economy.
Now it remains to be seen for how long will the remaining barons in the now defuncted Achaea hold against the sieges from the Despotate. This war has dragged on longer than it should and Morea will need to be reformed and rebuild and that will need some extra money.
 
I find the Athenian nobles more likely will accept the Catalans as they see them as fellow Catholics and not the schismatic and peasant loving Greek Vatatzes. Now it's a race between the Catalans and the Despotates to get as much out of Athens as possible. The fact that Roman Morea will get expanded into the fertile Argolis plain is good for their economy.
Now it remains to be seen for how long will the remaining barons in the now defuncted Achaea hold against the sieges from the Despotate. This war has dragged on longer than it should and Morea will need to be reformed and rebuild and that will need some extra money.
I don't think they can hold out much at all. All of Frankish Greece's fighting capability's just been spent. The only fighting force left in the Duchy of Athens are the peasantry and there's no way in hell the Frankish nobles would tap into that source of manpower.

Hell these peasants would be something that Philentropenos could train up within months and sic them against the Frankish nobles and Catalans alike. If the Vatatzes have ok to good luck Athens is most likely theirs. It'd spook Venice a lot, and I'm interested in seeing what'll happen.
 
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I don't think they can hold out much at all. All of Frankish Greece's fighting capability's just been spent. The only fighting force left in the Duchy of Athens are the peasantry and there's no way in hell the Frankish nobles would tap into that source of manpower.

Hell these peasants would be something that Philentropenos could train up within months and sic them against the Frankish nobles and Catalans alike. If the Vatatzes have ok to good luck Athens is most likely theirs. It'd spook Venice a lot, and I'm interested in seeing what'll happen.
Well even if they can't hope to win or even hold their positions their castles could delay the Sicilians enough for the Catalan company to get to Athens and take control. And then who knows how thing would go? Would the Catalans help their Latin brethren? Would they push for all of previous Athenian lands in Morea like Corinth? Or would Ioannes strike a deal with his former associates?
 
ichael was to stay neutral. He should not aid the Franks but under no circumstances was he to march to the aid of Vatatzes either,
Michael Kantakouzenos on news of the defeat had freely interpreted his emperors wishes and marched his own army to besiege Nauplion and Argos.
So, technically, he still sticks to Andronikos' command in the letter, though not in spirit; clever move.

However, what happens if Ioannis comes and says, 'now you can give it back' ? I'm meaning, since these places are, from the Frankish and Angevin point of view, a part of Maria's dowry, Ioannis has a stake in them. For the time being, Michael's parallel intervention would be more than welcome by Ioannis, but eventually, there will be a moment when the territories he would have taken from the Franks will put him in the crossfire between Andronikos and Ioannis.

Since his commands are specifically worded to exclude helping the Vatatzes, he cannot surrender his conquests, and I doubt Andronikos, if petitioned by Ioannis, would accept to relinquish any territory his governor has conquered. In the meantime, I surmise that could be a bargaining chip for Ioannis, or for Andronikos (depending on the pov), to leverage if Andronikos asks for his help in Rhodes or elsewhere.
 
So, technically, he still sticks to Andronikos' command in the letter, though not in spirit; clever move.

However, what happens if Ioannis comes and says, 'now you can give it back' ? I'm meaning, since these places are, from the Frankish and Angevin point of view, a part of Maria's dowry, Ioannis has a stake in them. For the time being, Michael's parallel intervention would be more than welcome by Ioannis, but eventually, there will be a moment when the territories he would have taken from the Franks will put him in the crossfire between Andronikos and Ioannis.

Since his commands are specifically worded to exclude helping the Vatatzes, he cannot surrender his conquests, and I doubt Andronikos, if petitioned by Ioannis, would accept to relinquish any territory his governor has conquered. In the meantime, I surmise that could be a bargaining chip for Ioannis, or for Andronikos (depending on the pov), to leverage if Andronikos asks for his help in Rhodes or elsewhere.
Tbf if it got to that I'm pretty sure we'd get the Emperor, Phillip of Taranto, Kantakouzenos and the Vatatzes to work something out. I think the lands probably won't be given to them immediately, with the Emperor basically saying 'If you guys play nice I'll maybe give it to you guys'. The Vatatzes do have a card up their sleeve tho: Kantakouzenos' son is with them, and I can see them using it when Kantakouzenos dies or he gets replaced.
 
Michael's son being the future John VI, it means Ioannis is tied to Andronikos III's party when comes the time of the civil war between the basileus and his grandson. Andronikos III was somewhat a competent emperor I believe, except for his lack of foresight on his succession, so that's good for the Vatatzes and the empire, at least for the 1330s. Because the 1320s and the 1340s risk being very rocky if things go about the same road as OTL, unless butterflies have accumulated enough to change the Empire's fortunes for the better.
 
Michael's son being the future John VI, it means Ioannis is tied to Andronikos III's party when comes the time of the civil war between the basileus and his grandson. Andronikos III was somewhat a competent emperor I believe, except for his lack of foresight on his succession, so that's good for the Vatatzes and the empire, at least for the 1330s. Because the 1320s and the 1340s risk being very rocky if things go about the same road as OTL, unless butterflies have accumulated enough to change the Empire's fortunes for the better.
I don't think we'd get a different succession than otl, so the 1320s and 1340s would be terrible for the Empire. I wonder what the role of the Despotate is, considering how it is a foot in Medieval europe and another foot in the Balkans. In general I think the empire will still collapse and we'd get the Empire of Serbia and the such, and the Turks prob will come in and attempt to kill everyone, its just idk how things will go at the end. A Despotate that is in Naples and mainland Greece from 1300 to like 1800 would be very interesting though.
 
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