Well, OTL, the Emperor managed to gather and sent some ships and troops to help the Rhodes garrison against the Hospitallers, but, it only delayed but not stopped their ongoing conquest of the Island. So, perhaps, ITTL, either Andronicus would, sooner or later, ask the Despotat for help or even, would be possible, that the Vatatzes would decide to help Rhodes out of their own...
The eagle's left head
- Thread starter Lascaris
- Start date
Chios, Thasos, Kos, likely even Rhodes ...
Sounds like the Aegean is slowly becoming a Vatatzes lake.
Then at last, albeit reluctantly it looks, Athens has entered the fray in the war for Achaea. And the Vatatzes have probably made another enemy in the Hospitalers.
Sounds like the Aegean is slowly becoming a Vatatzes lake.
Then at last, albeit reluctantly it looks, Athens has entered the fray in the war for Achaea. And the Vatatzes have probably made another enemy in the Hospitalers.
It should not be too hard for Ioannis to get rid of the Hospitalers in Rhodes. Unlike Andronikos, at least he has a battle tested fleet that can cut off the invaders from any resupply by sea. That said, I don't see Ioannis and his father doing it for free, ie Andronikos will have to appoint Ioannis as the island's governor as he did with Chios.
I know this figure is from OTL, but what was the reason why the Hospitallers with their vast network of manors throughout Europe can afford less than 1k men?
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the expansion of the Vatatzes in the Aegean is very good indeed! Guy de la Roche getting Achaea could be a good thing to the Vatatzes, especially if they manage to kill guy ii and take over Athens at the same time.
I don't see the Despotate not being a major player in the east med considering their expansion and the ships they command.
I don't see the Despotate not being a major player in the east med considering their expansion and the ships they command.
Thasos is a valuable fief to hold. To quote from "The Gattilusio Lordships and the Aegean World"
What about the population though? We know that in 1519 there were 2,700 people. However, Kritovoulos notes that there was a mass deportation of population after its capture by the Ottomans. Considering the population of Lemnos at the time, it would make sense that in the early 14th century there would be 6,000 people.
When it comes to revenue, we know that before Lemnos was captured by the Ottomans, it provided a tribute of 2,350 ducats. The island's income was certainly higher, since the Gattilusio overlord was making a profit as well and tithes were sent to Mount Athos. And Thasos there was a richer island than Lemnos. The aforementioned book also makes an estimate for the combined revenue of Thasos and Samothrace:
Considering that Samothrace was a thinly populated island of goat-herders, I would stay that Thasos' revenue is at a range of 5,000-8,000 ducats.
What about the population though? We know that in 1519 there were 2,700 people. However, Kritovoulos notes that there was a mass deportation of population after its capture by the Ottomans. Considering the population of Lemnos at the time, it would make sense that in the early 14th century there would be 6,000 people.
When it comes to revenue, we know that before Lemnos was captured by the Ottomans, it provided a tribute of 2,350 ducats. The island's income was certainly higher, since the Gattilusio overlord was making a profit as well and tithes were sent to Mount Athos. And Thasos there was a richer island than Lemnos. The aforementioned book also makes an estimate for the combined revenue of Thasos and Samothrace:
Considering that Samothrace was a thinly populated island of goat-herders, I would stay that Thasos' revenue is at a range of 5,000-8,000 ducats.
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With these island grabs here and there and a growing power base in the Morea I do wonder just how long it's going to be until Constantinople starts viewing and treating the despotate as a very real threat
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Indeed, but at this stage, should be clear, not only for the emperor but even for any of the possible hardcores anti Vatatzés courtiers/officials back in the imperial capital; that the Empire, at least for itself, couldn't afford to push them to open rebellion/secession and/or to turn the Vatatzés from powerful subjects and potential rivals into enemies.
I'd more worried over both mercantile republics 'opinion' or any possible menace assessment of the Despotate. But, particularly over Genoa and if so, if would be possible reach some, temporal at least, agreement with Venice, over a possible conjunction of interests in the Aegean/Eastern Med...
Tbf I think the Empire has bigger fish to fry, namely the ottomans, who would very much still be attempting excursions into their territory. A nominally aligned vassal is better than nothing at all, especially if they have a good navy so they can focus on the army.
Yeah I agree. Venice and Genoa would be the main rivals of the despotate. If the despotate takes Naples and Epirus they basically have the possibility of locking the Venetians in the Adriatic, which would horrify the Venetians. A conflict is defo brewing between the states especially as the Despotate builds up their navy too. They're probably going to be allies with the Genoese which would be beneficial to the despotate.
In the medium term, I think Genoa will be neutralized. They will have to deal with their ghibelline compatriots who have seized Savona and they control a lot of genoese colonies in the Black Sea.
For the time being, venetian trade is not at risk. I think that a -relatively- strong Despotate will be viewed as more convenient than a unified angevin realm that would include both Italy and Durazzo, Achaea, Athens and with strong influence over Epirus. At least in the near term. the Despotate is the lesser evil for Venice.
For the time being, venetian trade is not at risk. I think that a -relatively- strong Despotate will be viewed as more convenient than a unified angevin realm that would include both Italy and Durazzo, Achaea, Athens and with strong influence over Epirus. At least in the near term. the Despotate is the lesser evil for Venice.
@Lascaris then in that case I think it is a good assumptions that Thasos revenue is in the 8,000-9,000 ducats range.
By the way, at that age, Lemnos had the only motte and bailey castle in Greece - at least from what I know of. The castle of Kotzinos was built at the site of a deep fresh-water spring above of which a 20m motte was raised to host a castle.
By the way, at that age, Lemnos had the only motte and bailey castle in Greece - at least from what I know of. The castle of Kotzinos was built at the site of a deep fresh-water spring above of which a 20m motte was raised to host a castle.
They would have to be a credible counterweight.
For the time being as I understand it, they don't have even Rhodes as a base of their own. Turkish beyliks, the Genoese, or even the Frankish barons in Achaea are more credible if Andronikos seeks to check his cousins.
If the despotate could take over Rhodes and the such yeah defo but at this point they would have many enemies and many opportunities.
Well Rhodes doesn't need to fall under the Despotate really. There can be an exchange of Rhodes with some lands in Roman Morea or just a gesture of good will for the keeping of the other Aegean islands. At least for now of course so that they can show the Emperor that they mean no harm. Also what islands does Venice holds at the moment in the Aegean? They could indeed feel threatened as they see another power taking islands in a vital area for the republic.
Why house Vatatzes would want to pick a fight with the Hospitallers if the Hospitallers do not pick a fight with it? Which they may well pick they attacked both Venice and Genoa OTL after all. The Hospital has direct papal support while the relationship of Vatatzes with Avignon are tenous at best and has money that can be translated into ships and mercenaries...
Part 28
Naupaktos, September 1307
Philip of Taranto could see the trebuchets his engineers had built unleashing yet more stones at the fortress. But by now it was evident that his campaign to take Epirus was going nowhere. The Epirotes ably let by Anna Palaiologina were proving just as stubborn and difficult to conquer as in his previous campaign. And by now the year was starting to get late and his army was getting ravaged by disease. Unlike the previous campaign his vassals had come to his aid, short of at least. His newly minted brother in law Ioannis Vatatzes had sent over several ships and John I Orsini and his army, not that Orsini needed much prompting to join the campaign but no ground troops citing "the revolt of his vassals" as reason. Revolt. His father had been forced to give the principality as dowry of Maria Anjou, to secure peace with Alexandros Vatatzes and the release of Robert. Not even Philip was certain what his father hoped to achieve from the marriage and this particular dowry. Secure Alexandros as a future ally? Bog him down in Achaea? The barons could be counted upon not to accept Vatatzes. Both? But surely neither Charles nor his sons had expected Vatatzes proclaiming every single Achaean baron in revolt for staying loyal to Isabella Villehardouin and launching what amounted to a campaign of extermination against them. A ruler actively fomenting a peasant revolt against his own barons? That had been unheard of. But that was when the armies of Alexandros were doing now for three years. And this was creating new problems for the house of Anjou. The surviving barons and the Latin archbishop of Patras were seeking his intervention. So did the duke of Athens Guy II De La Roche who was a loyal Angevin vassal, one with a rival claim to the principality through his wife. But actively intervening would bring him in direct conflict with Vatatzes and remove any hope of bringing his father into the Angevin orbit. Not intervening threatened to alienate Guy II. So Philip had taken the middle ground. He had sent advise and admonitions to Ioannis to take a softer line with the barons offering to mediate. He had offered the same to Guy II and secured for Isabella the county of Alba, the deposed princess could become useful. Guy, considered the paragon of chivalry among the Frankish lords of Greece had claimed it was dishonorable for him to leave the Achaean barons to their fate. Ioannis had thanked him, hinted he might be willing to leave Guy's holding alone and continued to besiege Kalavryta as if nothing had transpired...
Mystras, March 1308
Michael Kantakouzenos became the first Epitropos of the Morea. For the past half century since the liberation of Laconia from Frankish rules governors of the Morea were alternating every year. But this had been causing maladministration. So Andronicus had finally decided to alter this, perhaps prompted by the news of the ongoing conquest of Achaea by the Vatatzes. The despot of course was technically subject to the emperor, or so the emperor claimed at least. But it was hardly lost to the imperial court either that Alexandros was virtually independent and too powerful for a mere subject or that he was a son of Ioannis III that at any time could claim the purple on his own. The unfortunate Ioannis IV had died in the monastery he was being held back in 1305. But as seen when the young Vatatzes had brought the Catalan company to the empires aid pro-Lascarid sentiments were still running strong. And if there was any doubt about it, the conspiracy of John Drimys the previous year another man claiming to be a Lascarid helped dispel them. As long as Alexandros and his sons failed to claim the purple it was better for the empire, facing enemies from all corners, to remain friendly to them. But by the same token it was better if someone kept a close eye on them...
Glarenza, April 1308
Five hundred cataphracts, Westerners would had said knights, and a thousand infantrymen start unloading from the Sicilian galleys. Spy reports said that Guy II had not taken well to the fall of Kalavryta and the continuing conquest of Achaea and was preparing a large army to restore Frankish fortunes in Achaea. Thus Alexandros had dispatched 1,500 more men under Theodore Doukas Lascaris, his younger son named after Alexandros late brother, emperor Theodore II, to reinforce Ioannis and Alexios Philanthropenos. By now nearly the entire standing army Alexandros had carefully built after peace with the Angevins had been restored was campaigning in Greece. It was a risk that could not continue indefinitely. But Sicily was at peace at the moment and no war seemed to loom at the horizon. The pronoia units should suffice for now there.
Arcadia, July 1308
Guy II De la Roche, duke of Athens, self proclaimed prince of Achaea, was getting increasingly frustrated. He had brought together the greatest army Frankish Greece had managed to assemble since the time to take on the Greeks. Present were, the surviving barons of Achaea, the triarchs of Euboea, the knights of the Duchy of Naxos, his own Athenians, even 500 Catalan mercenaries whose services he had bought, even though the company was at this time ravaging the lands of the Despotate of Thessaly and he was supposed to be protecting its young ruler Ioannis II Doukas Angelos. He had assembled over 8,000 men, with nearly a thousand knights and more than 2,000 cavalrymen overall only the damn Greeks were refusing so far to give battle. It was skirmish after skirmish and raid and counter-raid. Only he could not count on keeping his army together indefinately, his feudatories who had answered to his call where starting to grumble to be released as the campaign did not appear to bring results or much in the way of loot so far. And his own health was worsening, having to campaign in the hot Peloponnesian summer was hardly helping. He would have to force battle. The sooner the better.
Mystras, August 1st, 1308
Epitropos Michael Kantakouzenos looked critically at the young man in front of him. Alexandros second son had his father's good looks and apparently his intellect as well although from what he could remember from a lifetime away in Constantinople he had an open charm and assertiveness his father was lacing or at least was careful to avoid showing. Of course this wasn't surprising he mused, Alexandros had to always stay vigilant less Michael find him a threat. Still the youngster within a week from coming to Mystras had made fast friends with his own son Ioannis, had the ladies falling over him, the younger officers chaffing at the bit to join in the fighting in Arcadia, not that this was all that difficult and had made an eloquent attempt to convince Michael himself that he should march with his army to the aid of his elder brother and Philanthropenos. The youngster was too persuasive for someone his age but Michael was made of sterner stuff. And yet the argument, Theodore's or Alexandros he wondered, was clear and persuasive. The whole armed might of Frankish Greece was assembled in one place in Arcadia. The despotate at considerable cost to itself had brought together an army nearly the equal in numbers to the Franks. If Kantakouzenos joined them and the Frankish army was destroyed it could spell the end of Frankish Greece. But what would Andronikos think of it? He had sent to Constantinople asking for instructions already. No answer had been received yet and perhaps there was no more time to wait for one. The decision would fall on his own shoulders...
Philip of Taranto could see the trebuchets his engineers had built unleashing yet more stones at the fortress. But by now it was evident that his campaign to take Epirus was going nowhere. The Epirotes ably let by Anna Palaiologina were proving just as stubborn and difficult to conquer as in his previous campaign. And by now the year was starting to get late and his army was getting ravaged by disease. Unlike the previous campaign his vassals had come to his aid, short of at least. His newly minted brother in law Ioannis Vatatzes had sent over several ships and John I Orsini and his army, not that Orsini needed much prompting to join the campaign but no ground troops citing "the revolt of his vassals" as reason. Revolt. His father had been forced to give the principality as dowry of Maria Anjou, to secure peace with Alexandros Vatatzes and the release of Robert. Not even Philip was certain what his father hoped to achieve from the marriage and this particular dowry. Secure Alexandros as a future ally? Bog him down in Achaea? The barons could be counted upon not to accept Vatatzes. Both? But surely neither Charles nor his sons had expected Vatatzes proclaiming every single Achaean baron in revolt for staying loyal to Isabella Villehardouin and launching what amounted to a campaign of extermination against them. A ruler actively fomenting a peasant revolt against his own barons? That had been unheard of. But that was when the armies of Alexandros were doing now for three years. And this was creating new problems for the house of Anjou. The surviving barons and the Latin archbishop of Patras were seeking his intervention. So did the duke of Athens Guy II De La Roche who was a loyal Angevin vassal, one with a rival claim to the principality through his wife. But actively intervening would bring him in direct conflict with Vatatzes and remove any hope of bringing his father into the Angevin orbit. Not intervening threatened to alienate Guy II. So Philip had taken the middle ground. He had sent advise and admonitions to Ioannis to take a softer line with the barons offering to mediate. He had offered the same to Guy II and secured for Isabella the county of Alba, the deposed princess could become useful. Guy, considered the paragon of chivalry among the Frankish lords of Greece had claimed it was dishonorable for him to leave the Achaean barons to their fate. Ioannis had thanked him, hinted he might be willing to leave Guy's holding alone and continued to besiege Kalavryta as if nothing had transpired...
Mystras, March 1308
Michael Kantakouzenos became the first Epitropos of the Morea. For the past half century since the liberation of Laconia from Frankish rules governors of the Morea were alternating every year. But this had been causing maladministration. So Andronicus had finally decided to alter this, perhaps prompted by the news of the ongoing conquest of Achaea by the Vatatzes. The despot of course was technically subject to the emperor, or so the emperor claimed at least. But it was hardly lost to the imperial court either that Alexandros was virtually independent and too powerful for a mere subject or that he was a son of Ioannis III that at any time could claim the purple on his own. The unfortunate Ioannis IV had died in the monastery he was being held back in 1305. But as seen when the young Vatatzes had brought the Catalan company to the empires aid pro-Lascarid sentiments were still running strong. And if there was any doubt about it, the conspiracy of John Drimys the previous year another man claiming to be a Lascarid helped dispel them. As long as Alexandros and his sons failed to claim the purple it was better for the empire, facing enemies from all corners, to remain friendly to them. But by the same token it was better if someone kept a close eye on them...
Glarenza, April 1308
Five hundred cataphracts, Westerners would had said knights, and a thousand infantrymen start unloading from the Sicilian galleys. Spy reports said that Guy II had not taken well to the fall of Kalavryta and the continuing conquest of Achaea and was preparing a large army to restore Frankish fortunes in Achaea. Thus Alexandros had dispatched 1,500 more men under Theodore Doukas Lascaris, his younger son named after Alexandros late brother, emperor Theodore II, to reinforce Ioannis and Alexios Philanthropenos. By now nearly the entire standing army Alexandros had carefully built after peace with the Angevins had been restored was campaigning in Greece. It was a risk that could not continue indefinitely. But Sicily was at peace at the moment and no war seemed to loom at the horizon. The pronoia units should suffice for now there.
Arcadia, July 1308
Guy II De la Roche, duke of Athens, self proclaimed prince of Achaea, was getting increasingly frustrated. He had brought together the greatest army Frankish Greece had managed to assemble since the time to take on the Greeks. Present were, the surviving barons of Achaea, the triarchs of Euboea, the knights of the Duchy of Naxos, his own Athenians, even 500 Catalan mercenaries whose services he had bought, even though the company was at this time ravaging the lands of the Despotate of Thessaly and he was supposed to be protecting its young ruler Ioannis II Doukas Angelos. He had assembled over 8,000 men, with nearly a thousand knights and more than 2,000 cavalrymen overall only the damn Greeks were refusing so far to give battle. It was skirmish after skirmish and raid and counter-raid. Only he could not count on keeping his army together indefinately, his feudatories who had answered to his call where starting to grumble to be released as the campaign did not appear to bring results or much in the way of loot so far. And his own health was worsening, having to campaign in the hot Peloponnesian summer was hardly helping. He would have to force battle. The sooner the better.
Mystras, August 1st, 1308
Epitropos Michael Kantakouzenos looked critically at the young man in front of him. Alexandros second son had his father's good looks and apparently his intellect as well although from what he could remember from a lifetime away in Constantinople he had an open charm and assertiveness his father was lacing or at least was careful to avoid showing. Of course this wasn't surprising he mused, Alexandros had to always stay vigilant less Michael find him a threat. Still the youngster within a week from coming to Mystras had made fast friends with his own son Ioannis, had the ladies falling over him, the younger officers chaffing at the bit to join in the fighting in Arcadia, not that this was all that difficult and had made an eloquent attempt to convince Michael himself that he should march with his army to the aid of his elder brother and Philanthropenos. The youngster was too persuasive for someone his age but Michael was made of sterner stuff. And yet the argument, Theodore's or Alexandros he wondered, was clear and persuasive. The whole armed might of Frankish Greece was assembled in one place in Arcadia. The despotate at considerable cost to itself had brought together an army nearly the equal in numbers to the Franks. If Kantakouzenos joined them and the Frankish army was destroyed it could spell the end of Frankish Greece. But what would Andronikos think of it? He had sent to Constantinople asking for instructions already. No answer had been received yet and perhaps there was no more time to wait for one. The decision would fall on his own shoulders...
Ooh this seems to be very nice! If the Frankish army is destroyed with or without Kantakozenous (he probably would come) Frankish Greece (with the exception of Epirus) is practically in the hands of the Vatatzes. I'm really interested in seeing how the Roman Empire and the other powers react to it, and how the Ottomans continue to move against the ERE.