The eagle's left head

I would guess that rather that 'rival' they would probably, (that once stabilized and secured their independency/rulership), that it come to be similar to the byzantine successor/splinted states like Trebizonde, Epirus or Nicaea but with politicals, geographical and on manpower, quite uniques advantages.
Well, while I think that they should consider and weight carefully any possible marriage links/alliances that would force them to be too involved in the Italian affaires.
But about their possible foreign interests...
And speculating, I tend to think that once the Sicilian Vatatzés, could divert their attention from the present pressing situation, that Greece (Achaia) and especially Epirus and Cefalony, would after Naples, will be in the center of their attention.
Perhaps, acting there, taking advantage of their double condition of Sicilian rulers with the interest of their own to fight against any Angevin influence and/or foreign intervention... But with, the key difference, that possibly they would have the 'Byzantine legitimacy' (for the local inhabitants) and/or that they would be acting there, (at least, they could claim it) in behalf of the Empire...
Finally, I wouldn't discard that eventually, the Sicilian Despotate could eventually be regarded as the one that for the Byzantines filled the same or similar role that Isauria had for the Empire in the past...
I do agree they'd act like Trebizond as a peripheral nation of ere if it was powerful. But we're near the end of the ere with the Ottomans and other Europeans all trying to break it. Even if it's salvaged by a really competent and lucky emperor there should be friction between the two nations at first.

But yeah I agree that the Syracuse despotate could be seen as one of the places where the empire pops back up. I just think in the short term the palailogos would just be too insecure to see the Vatatzes as allies until they're strong enough because the vatatzes are strong and rising in power while having the legitimacy of force and bloodline to claim every part the palailogos claim, including mainland Greece at least.

But I do think the main thing the despotate would be thinking about is Naples. Considering their proximity and past I do think the main objective of the despotate is to stay alive and strengthen their hold of the lands they control, and expand if possible.
 
Last edited:
I do agree they'd act like Trebizond as a peripheral nation of ere if it was powerful. But we're near the end of the ere with the Ottomans and other Europeans all trying to break it. Even if it's salvaged by a really competent and lucky emperor there should be friction between the two nations at first.

But yeah I agree that the Syracuse despotate could be seen as one of the places where the empire pops back up. I just think in the short term the palailogos would just be too insecure to see the Vatatzes as allies until they're strong enough because the vatatzes are strong and rising in power while having the legitimacy of force and bloodline to claim every part the palailogos claim, including mainland Greece at least.

But I do think the main thing the despotate would be thinking about is Naples. Considering their proximity and past I do think the main objective of the despotate is to stay alive and strengthen their hold of the lands they control, and expand if possible.
I wonder if in medium term, when and if Naples is taken and the despotate is independent a way of natural expansion could be Albania and Epirus, maybe even Greece proper.
 
I wonder if in medium term, when and if Naples is taken and the despotate is independent a way of natural expansion could be Albania and Epirus, maybe even Greece proper.
Tbf I think they'd take Epirus and Achaea first as they changed rulers often during this era, and it wouldn't be hard for the despotate to fully claim control with a population that wants them to rule before ever fully taking Naples.
 
But I do think the main thing the despotate would be thinking about is Naples. Considering their proximity and past I do think the main objective of the despotate is to stay alive and strengthen their hold of the lands they control, and expand if possible.
I wonder if in medium term, when and if Naples is taken and the despotate is independent a way of natural expansion could be Albania and Epirus, maybe even Greece proper.
Should be taken into account that OTL both kingdoms future rulership was 'settled' by the Peace of Caltabellotta and the de facto Aragonese control of the kingdom of Sicily or kingdom of Trinacria/Thrinacia. But, ITTL, while that the Insular kingdom would seem that as OTL, would be ruled by the Aragonese dynasty and that the peninsular kingdom would be kept by Angevins.
Thus, at least at this stage, I don't think that any of them, would be easy foes from whom wrestle control from their holdings... ITTL., the Vataztes Despotate, practically the major Aragonese Sicilian Vassal with lands that extended to both sides of Messina strait and an able military/navy to defend them, for both Kingdoms rulers, IMO, would be a vassal and a power to be reckoned with..
 
Last edited:
Should be taken into account that OTL both kingdoms future rulership was 'settled' by the Peace of Caltabellotta and the de facto Aragonese control of the kingdom of Sicily or kingdom of Trinacria/Thrinacia. But, ITTL, while that the Insular kingdom would seem that as OTL, would be ruled by the Aragonese dynasty and that the peninsular kingdom would be kept by Angevins.
Thus, at least at this stage, I don't think that any of them, would be easy foes from whom wrestle control from their holdings... ITTL., the Vataztes Despotate, practically the major Aragonese Sicilian Vassal with lands that extended to both sides of Messina strait and an able military/navy to defend them, for both Kingdoms rulers, IMO, would be a vassal and a power to be reckoned with..
Yeah I do think that both Naples and Sicily won't budge on its lands being given to the despotate, but I do think if the nobles of Sicily revolt some lands could be stripped and given to the despotate, and that's why I think if they expand they'd do so in Achaea first.
 
Well I do have my concerns on the whole powerful subject. I mean no king loves a strong vassal and we might see in the future a reversal of the current war were the kings of Naples and Sicily ally against a strong Vatatzes duchy. So there is a very fine line of how much power can the duchy get and how fast it gets it.
 
Well I do have my concerns on the whole powerful subject. I mean no king loves a strong vassal and we might see in the future a reversal of the current war were the kings of Naples and Sicily ally against a strong Vatatzes duchy. So there is a very fine line of how much power can the duchy get and how fast it gets it.
Its definitely possible, but I do think the main ally kings of Sicily in the short term are the Vatatzes and can't really move against them, especially if the vatatzes also have their own allies among the nobles. It's also very possible that the crown just passes to the Vatatzes when the main line dies off, and they're just handed the crown, which is the most painless version of how things could go. After all Alexandros and his descendants have the bloodline to claim all of sicily too, they just need the power to back up said claim.
 
Last edited:
Its definitely possible, but I do think the main ally kings of Sicily in the short term are the Vatatzes and can't really move against them, especially if the vatatzes also have their own allies among the nobles. It's also very possible that the crown just passes to the Vatatzes when the main line dies off, and they're just handed the crown, which is the most painless version of how things could go. After all Alexandros and his descendants have the bloodline to claim all of sicily too, they just need the power to back up said claim.
Well I mean you are correct on the whole only ally , except Genoa maybe, but on the other hand I think the author made it very clear about their hostile attitude towards the heretic foreigner that gives privileges to the peasants. So I doubt that Vatatzes will have allies on the western Sicilian nobles. Also if the main line dies of the Aragonese will be back for their claim as they were when this whole war started.
 
Well I mean you are correct on the whole only ally , except Genoa maybe, but on the other hand I think the author made it very clear about their hostile attitude towards the heretic foreigner that gives privileges to the peasants. So I doubt that Vatatzes will have allies on the western Sicilian nobles. Also if the main line dies of the Aragonese will be back for their claim as they were when this whole war started.
Yeah definitely. It'd only work if either the nobles work with the vatatzes (which may or may not happen depending on the circumstances) or that the will of the late king is to have the vatatzes have all of Sicily.
 

iddt3

Donor
It will be fun to see if this gets us yet another Roman successor state. It's pretty hard to save Constantinople at this point, but a Despotate of Sicily has a plausible claim to be a successor, and has relatively good odds at maintaining its independence.

Also, interesting implications for Italian unification, the South was always different, but here, there will be continuity in the south between Magna Grecia of the Roman era and the early modern era. If Sicily at least survives as a Greek speaking Island, that has interesting implications through the Modern era.
 
Also, interesting implications for Italian unification, the South was always different, but here, there will be continuity in the south between Magna Grecia of the Roman era and the early modern era. If Sicily at least survives as a Greek speaking Island, that has interesting implications through the Modern era.
Not only that but it would make possible that ITTL, not only in Sicily, but that at least in Calabria and perhaps, even in the whole Catepanate of Italy
the Italiot Greeks peninsular variants such as the Gricko or the Grecanico, would get improved chances to not only survive but to stabilize and revert the OTL socio-linguist trends.
 
Not only that but it would make possible that ITTL, not only in Sicily, but that at least in Calabria and perhaps, even in the whole Catepanate of Italy
the Italiot Greeks peninsular variants such as the Gricko or the Grecanico, would get improved chances to not only survive but to stabilize and revert the OTL socio-linguist trends.
It'd be especially interesting if Griko variants become the main language of the greeks as greece proper and anatolia declines.

I do think they have a chance to stabilise and push outwards it'd be interesting though, especially if they try to get to tunis and such.
 
Part 20
Aegadian islands, Sicily, August 1st, 1301

Roger de Lauria, true to his reputation as the greatest admiral of the era, instead of taking the shortest route home which would had brought himself in front of Syracuse and Vatatzes fleet had instead sailed westwards hoping to circumnavigate western Sicily and sail north to Naples avoiding Vatatzes. Alexandros had though chased after the Angevin fleet and while Lauria had a head start his ships were both damaged and heavier in the water from several weeks at see. And thus finally the fleet of Alexandros Doukas Vatatzes despot of Sicily, of 28 galleys joined battle with the Angevin fleet of 15 galleys between Marsala and Favignana island in the 1st of August. Lauria's fleet even damaged and outnumbered nearly two to one still dealt nearly as much damage as it received. But Vatatzes pressed on despite casualties and so did his crews enraged by the massacre of the captured Messinese crews by Lauria after the battle of Cape Orlando and the treatment of Sicilian prisoners both at Cape Orlando and after the battle of Ponza the previous year. Not a single Angevin galley survived the battle with most captured and the rest sunk.

Messina, August 10th, 1301

Roger de Lauria, spat at the closest of his captors, only to be hit over the head for his troubles. That damned Greek had dared throw himself, a noble, to the hand of commoners. And these particular commoners had every reason to hate him, since he had massacred nearly two thousands of their brethren at Cape Orlando, refusing to take prisoners. He had his reasons, after the death of his nephew. But the Messinese who had lost brothers, fathers and sons to his revenge were of a different opinion. History would record that Alexandros Vatatzes gave Lauria to the people of Messine who executed him. The details for Laria before he was impaled and died were rather messier.

Syracuse, August 20th, 1301

Robert d'Anjou suppressed a sigh as he looked at the fortifications of Syracuse from the inside. The Greek prince had been clearly busy at work for the past two decades. Huge forts had been built in the heights of Euryalus and Epipolae on the land side. More forts lined the harbor while the older castello Maniakes in the island of Ortygia had been further reinforced. Curtain walls dotted with multiple towers linked the forts. The city would be a bitch to take by force but then he had learned as much two years ago. But he still had hoped to enter the city as a conqueror not as a prisoner of war. His treatment by the duke, no despot he called himself, was impeccable very much unlike the late Lauria. But how much would his imprisonment cost his father?

Catane, September, 1301

The wall shook as the stone unleashed by the counterweight trebuchet hit it. Alexis Philanthropenos had closed on the town from the land just as the fleet blockaded it from the sea. How much the trapped French army insite would hold was anyone's guess.

Florence, November 1301

The army of Charles of Valois entered the city in support of the papist Black Guelphs, looting the city, killing many of the opposing White Guelphs and forcing others to exile. Among the exiled would be a certain Dante Alighieri and act that gain Charles his place in hell, in the Divine Comedy. Whether Charles wold ever learn about securing his position to eternity...
 
I had a thought after looking at the title again and remembered the Roman double headed eagle, two heads one body each looking at different directions.
 
Well, the loss of the Admiral R. de Lauria, surely would result in an even bigger and devastating loss for the Angevin cause than the important, Naval defeat,in itself...
 
Last edited:
So in one fell swoop the Angevins lost their best admiral, their fleet and the heir to the kingdom. Quite a reversal of fate there. On the other hand they got the loot of Florence to maybe bank another army or navy to try once more their luck on the conquest of Sicily. Or maybe to defend from an attack on Apulia and Basilicata depending on the eagerness of the young Vatatzes.
 
I had a thought after looking at the title again and remembered the Roman double headed eagle, two heads one body each looking at different directions.
Must have been purely accidental when selecting the title. :angel:
Well, the loss of the Admiral R. de Lauria, surely would result in an even bigger and devastating loss for the Angevin cause than the important, Naval defeat,in itself...
He died in 1305 and Ponza had been his last great victory in OTL. But his loss makes it decidedly more difficult to recover for the Angevins to recover at sea.
So in one fell swoop the Angevins lost their best admiral, their fleet and the heir to the kingdom. Quite a reversal of fate there. On the other hand they got the loot of Florence to maybe bank another army or navy to try once more their luck on the conquest of Sicily. Or maybe to defend from an attack on Apulia and Basilicata depending on the eagerness of the young Vatatzes.
The papacy is still bankrolling the Angevins, so money is less of a problem than they should otherwise. But to a not inconsiderable extend the Despotate has the very same advantages at sea Roger di Lauria relied upon, namely regular crews, specialist marines and disciplined captains. Even so without fortune or providence intervening and sinking the greater part of Roger's fleet...
 
He died in 1305 and Ponza had been his last great victory in OTL. But his loss makes it decidedly more difficult to recover for the Angevins to recover at sea.
Yeah but I do feel it's also a significant blow to the morale of the ppl fighting for Naples which is always good for the Sicilians and Alexandros.
The papacy is still bankrolling the Angevins, so money is less of a problem than they should otherwise. But to a not inconsiderable extend the Despotate has the very same advantages at sea Roger di Lauria relied upon, namely regular crews, specialist marines and disciplined captains. Even so without fortune or providence intervening and sinking the greater part of Roger's fleet...
I do think they can defo start blocking access to Sicily from sea from now and Alexandros could try to take Basilicata and the Southern tip of Aquila which should have significant Greek populations, but I'll think that Naples still would have enough strength to prevent losing Aquila.
 
Top