The Eagle of the Bosporus

Solroc

Banned
Well, I finally read through it and I must say, excellent timeline. I can't really comment much about it because I'm really fuzzy with history in general prior to 1600 (not to say I'm fuzzy with all history prior to 1600, but you get my point), but I will try my best with these questions:

With the joint German-Greek force finally taking Acre, Saladin is definitely going to be desperate. What tricks will he pull, or will I have to wait and see?

Should this campaign be successful, does that mean it will be the end of the Seljuks (as in earlier than OTL, which isn't too far away)?

What will that mean for relations between the HRE and Byzantium? Are they still going to quarrel and kill each other, will they find some common ground, or are there other options that I'm not thinking of?
 
Well, I finally read through it and I must say, excellent timeline. I can't really comment much about it because I'm really fuzzy with history in general prior to 1600 (not to say I'm fuzzy with all history prior to 1600, but you get my point), but I will try my best with these questions:

With the joint German-Greek force finally taking Acre, Saladin is definitely going to be desperate. What tricks will he pull, or will I have to wait and see?

You're going to have to wait for details, but sufficient to say, he doesn't have very many good options. Alexius hasn't sent much help - there's probably 3-5,000 Greeks with the crusaders - but considering that the French force OTL after Philip left was 10,000, three thousand Greeks might go a long way. Not to mention there are many more Germans than OTL.

So it might be safe to predict he's going to lose.

Should this campaign be successful, does that mean it will be the end of the Seljuks (as in earlier than OTL, which isn't too far away)?

Yes The Seljuk civil war over the succession plus Iconium plus Alexius being in a position to do something about it = the sultanate is dying even as we speak (1191). There may be Seljuk princes holding on to something for a while longer, but only as one of the not-yet-conquered emirates of central-eastern Anatolia, rather than as even first among equals.

What will that mean for relations between the HRE and Byzantium? Are they still going to quarrel and kill each other, will they find some common ground, or are there other options that I'm not thinking of?

Both empires can coexist simply by focusing on their own, mostly internal objectives, and leaving the issue of who is the One True Roman Empire to be sorted out "Later."

Alexius would prefer that scenario. Frederick isn't going to last past 1192, so that brings us to their children. What Alexius's will be like, I'm not telling. Henry VI isn't much different than the OTL guy, though recognizing that the Byzantine Empire in this timeline is much harder to push around than OTL will probably sink in.

The main problem with common ground that I'd like to note is that neither really has as much in the way of a common foe, but do have conflicting ambitions over southern Italy.

This doesn't mean eternal bickering, but is a problem that will take some effort by both parties in order to produce an acceptable solution.

Any other thoughts, questions, comments, ideas?

I'm always up for introducing neat things the readers find fascinating if I can fit them in - like making good use of Balian of Ibelin. Can't promise I'll be able to do everything, but I'm always open to suggestions.

re persona tragedy.
 
Saladin is dying. He'll probably sue for peace, or his successors will, so they can get on with their own disputes.
 
And since I want to get through the Third Crusade and get it over with, an update! First things first, though.

Chapter II, Part II (continued)

On May 1st 1191, Kilij Arslan, Sultan of the Seljuks of Rum died. With his sons quarreling over the succession, the Byzantines consolidating their position in the old Anatolic theme in the west, and formerly subject beys as well as the independent emirs to the east; the last remains of Seljuk unity died with the sultan. For Alexius, much remained to be done before Anatolia would fully be returned to the empire, but that the Turkish statelets could be picked off one by one was now assured.

For the crusaders, another year of fighting lay ahead before Jerusalem would finally be theirs, retaken almost a century after it had first fallen to them. By this point their ranks would be badly depleted, and their ability to press on not much better off than the ability of Saladin to deny them further advance. Negotiations, in which Balian of Ibelin would play a crucial part as a figure trusted equally by both the crusaders and the sultan, would occupy the better part of two months before it was finally agreed what exactly the crusaders would regain in the Holy Land and on what terms. In addition to possession of a narrow strip along the coastline from Jaffa in the south to Beiruit in the north, the crusaders would regain the city of Jerusalem and a corridor connecting the city to the coast. Certain conditions involving respecting the Dome of the Rock were also placed within the treaty. In addition, the lands taken from the principality of Antioch would be turned over directly to the Byzantine Empire.
Finally, a truce for five years between Richard, Frederick, the kingdom of Jerusalem, and Saladin was signed. The heirs of the parties so named would be bound by the terms of the truce as well - mostly done as a gesture towards the ailing sultan and the aged emperor, neither of which would likely last the next five years - indeed, Frederick would only live three days after it had been signed, dying peacefully in his sleep.

While hardly the liberation of the whole of the kingdom as had been fondly hoped for, it was still a fantastic success for the crusaders and a devastating reversal of fortune for Saladin, who had held the city of Jerusalem for less than five years.

More troubling for the crusaders was the issue of the succession to the the kingdom of Jerusalem. While Guy had graciously bowed out, recognizing both his total lack of support from the barons of the kingdom and his inadequacy for the task, Conrad had been killed by unknown assassins in April, and some - such as Conrad's cousin Leopold V, duke of Austria - suspected Richard's involvement, which would prove to have dire consequences for the English king. Nevertheless, Henry of Champagne, Richard's nephew, would be accepted by the majority of the barons, although he would not become officially king until his coronation in September.



Questions, comments, nitpicks on my grammar/spelling/syntax?
 
Looks good to me, though one should be wary about a collapse of centralised Turkish power at Iconium- there'll be a lot of damaging raiding into Imperial Anatolia by Turkish tribes now, I suspect.
 
Looks good to me, though one should be wary about a collapse of centralised Turkish power at Iconium- there'll be a lot of damaging raiding into Imperial Anatolia by Turkish tribes now, I suspect.

Its certainly the reason why Alexius is very cautious about pushing further than the old Anatolic theme in regards to "taking advantage of the situation". That's about as far as he can (or will) stretch the resources the Empire has to deal with it (those raiders). And even at that, the Akritai-Turcoman war is going to ensure the area east of the coastal plain is only thinly settled for a generation.

No choice in the matter though. The alternative to border trouble is a Seljuk state that can do even more harm than the Turcomen tribesmen and the Turcomen tribesmen in Anatolia.

So in the long term, this is a good thing. Just don't tell anyone on the frontier.
 
Last edited:
Excellent update. Balian was awesome. I think Ibelin isn't within the Kingdom's domains, so he could be created Duke of Jaffa, maybe. :)

I figured that it was the best use for him. :D I just wanted to be done with this, so I didn't write up any of the battles - but I did promise to have Balian play an important role (amusingly .

The borders are pretty much the same as OTL's 1229 borders: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/maps/crusaders2.jpg

Maybe Saladin decides to grant Ibelin back to Balian outside the official treaty of this timeline as a gesture of respect to a worthy opponent.

After all, he was pretty generous OTL:
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/JERUSALEM%20NOBILITY.htm#BalianIbelinNablusdied1193B

Altair, anyone? :D
Maaaaaybe. Conrad was assassinated OTL as well, so I'm not sure we should be too quick to assume Altair did it.

Then again, it would explain why no one knows who was responsible. :D
 
Last edited:
Anatolia is destined to be heavily greek influenced again or the turk population will managed to keep its identity? Also, the Byzantines of this period will force them to conversion or they will keep a balance between Muslims and Orthodoxs?

In effect, one of the most important values to keep in mind in situation of resurgent Byzantine Empire TLs IMO is the tolerance issue; more specifically, your BE will be more a reversal Ottoman Empire ( not only in the sense of the expansion but also between the coexisting of different religions) or an intransigent Orthodox bastion of faith?
 
Anatolia is destined to be heavily greek influenced again or the turk population will managed to keep its identity? Also, the Byzantines of this period will force them to conversion or they will keep a balance between Muslims and Orthodoxs?

In effect, one of the most important values to keep in mind in situation of resurgent Byzantine Empire TLs IMO is the tolerance issue; more specifically, your BE will be more a reversal Ottoman Empire ( not only in the sense of the expansion but also between the coexisting of different religions) or an intransigent Orthodox bastion of faith?

Anatolia is going to be a lot like Bulgaria, in the sense of being strongly influenced by the Byzantine culture in the broader sense, but not so much in the sense of Hellenic-Roman in particular. So the interior is still staying distinct from the fully "Greek" part of the Empire.

As for conversion...more of the reverse Ottoman Empire. A war of full out ethnic cleansing (there's no other way to put it, is there?) would be expensive and cost the empire a good source of light cavalry, as Alexius might put it. But pressure probably will be applied - there's no equivalent (yet) to the Muslim code on other peoples of the Book, and even once that's made law that's not entirely the same thing as complete acceptance.

On the other hand, the Byzantines are practical. Muslims that don't cause trouble are better than Christian subjects who do. Being intransigently Orthodox is bad policy for a state that's the only significant Orthodox state and will be the only one for centuries (Georgia is - temporally - regionally significant, but its not a big power so far as Europe is concerned).

As discussed here for events two centuries earlier: http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/pdfs/holmes.pdf Since Anatolia is a much bigger issue than northern Syria, its going to be more problematic, but the basic policy of absorbing rather than expelling is still viable.

That clear things up?
 
Last edited:
Anatolia is going to be a lot like Bulgaria, in the sense of being strongly influenced by the Byzantine culture in the broader sense, but not so much in the sense of Hellenic-Roman in particular. So the interior is still staying distinct from the fully "Greek" part of the Empire.

As for conversion...more of the reverse Ottoman Empire. A war of full out ethnic cleansing (there's no other way to put it, is there?) would be expensive and cost the empire a good source of light cavalry, as Alexius might put it. But pressure probably will be applied - there's no equivalent (yet) to the Muslim code on other peoples of the Book, and even once that's made law that's not entirely the same thing as complete acceptance.

On the other hand, the Byzantines are practical. Muslims that don't cause trouble are better than Christian subjects who do. Being intransigently Orthodox is bad policy for a state that's the only significant Orthodox state and will be the only one for centuries (Georgia is - temporally - regionally significant, but its not a big power so far as Europe is concerned).

That clear things up?

Yes, thanks. Keep it up! ;)
 
emot-fappery.gif
I must say I enjoyed that update.
 
Yes, thanks. Keep it up! ;)

Will do. Can't promise when the next update is coming, but it'll probably cover affairs outside the Empire and the Near East. Perhaps a glance at Hungary.

Any historical figures you want to see drawn attention to, good or bad? Alternately, any suggestions for the replacements to people hit by butterflies (which are going to start causing trouble in the nearish future - I'm of the school that anything after a generation from the POD is probably not entirely like OTL, but within that is more flexible)?

emot-fappery.gif
I must say I enjoyed that update.

What about it if you don't mind elaborating?
 
What about it if you don't mind elaborating?

On May 1st 1191, Kilij Arslan, Sultan of the Seljuks of Rum died. With his sons quarreling over the succession, the Byzantines consolidating their position in the old Anatolic theme in the west, and formerly subject beys as well as the independent emirs to the east; the last remains of Seljuk unity died with the sultan. For Alexius, much remained to be done before Anatolia would fully be returned to the empire, but that the Turkish statelets could be picked off one by one was now assured. [/QUOTE]

It's nice to see that with the Seljuk Turks fragmenting and fighting amongst one another, the Eastern Romans can recover their territories in Anatolia though you also mentioned that the Turks will still stick around as the dominant group of people in the interior which of course makes for some interesting speculation later on, if you catch my drift. ;)

For the crusaders, another year of fighting lay ahead before Jerusalem would finally be theirs, retaken almost a century after it had first fallen to them. By this point their ranks would be badly depleted, and their ability to press on not much better off than the ability of Saladin to deny them further advance. Negotiations, in which Balian of Ibelin would play a crucial part as a figure trusted equally by both the crusaders and the sultan, would occupy the better part of two months before it was finally agreed what exactly the crusaders would regain in the Holy Land and on what terms. In addition to possession of a narrow strip along the coastline from Jaffa in the south to Beiruit in the north, the crusaders would regain the city of Jerusalem and a corridor connecting the city to the coast. Certain conditions involving respecting the Dome of the Rock were also placed within the treaty. In addition, the lands taken from the principality of Antioch would be turned over directly to the Byzantine Empire.

And some success in the Third Crusade! Now that depends if the Crusaders are able to hold it.
 
It's nice to see that with the Seljuk Turks fragmenting and fighting amongst one another, the Eastern Romans can recover their territories in Anatolia though you also mentioned that the Turks will still stick around as the dominant group of people in the interior which of course makes for some interesting speculation later on, if you catch my drift. ;)

Always good.

One thing that will be interesting is that while they, as a people, are probably staying - Turkish culture as we know it probably isn't developing (since they are subject to significant influence from the living empire). That could be fun.

And some success in the Third Crusade! Now that depends if the Crusaders are able to hold it.

Sufficient to say, the author is less optimistic about their situation. On the other hand, the Ayyubids aren't looking too good.
 
So we might expect the Mamelukes to overthrow them sooner in TTL?

Maybe. I don't know nearly as much as I'd like about how strong the Mamelukes were prior to the mid-13th century, so I'm going to have to look into that.

It may also have interesting consequences for the next crusade. And the fact Jerusalem is in Christian hands makes for questions on what that next crusade will aim for. Possibly still Egypt - taking advantage of the weakened state of the Muslims. Though the question is, who leads that crusade? France is busy...taking advantage of an underaged (though I'm assuming he's crowned at fifteen, same as his father) king.

Sufficient to say, 1204 is not a year of particular importance in Constantinople except to one man and his wife. And they're more than a little partial.
 
So are you willing to give any hints for when the next crusade is planed?Anyways I am really enjoying reading this so keep up the good work! I just have one request. Please be a little gentler on France than you are implying. My family's country gets kicked to often on this board and it would be nice if this tl was among the unique in that regards.
 
Top