The Dutch East Indies have seriuos defence, effects?

Dutch Fleet in the East Indies

4 battle cruisers (cruiser killers)
6 light cruisers
3 light cruisers (Java class modified as AA cruiser)
24 destroyers
42 submarines



Air planes in the Dutch East Indies
June 1940
(after caputilation of the homeland to Germany)
First squadrons in 1931 were part of the Dutch land forces under command from the home land. Independ air branch of the Dutch east Indies since 1936.

A full strength afdeling (=squadron) with 12 aircraft was divided into three patrouilles (=flights) with four planes apiece, each patrouille split up into two pairs (=Koppel).
I Group
1-VlG-I : 12 Fokker T9 Samarinda II airfield, Borneo
2-VlG-I : 12 Fokker G1
3-VlG-I : 12 Fokker G1

4-VlG-I : 12 Fokker T9 Singkawang II airfield, Borneo
5-VlG-I : 12 Fokker G1
6-VlG-I : 12 Fokker G1
II Group
1-VlG-II : 12 Fokker T9 Singosari, Malang-Java
2-VlG-II : 12 Fokker T9.
3-VlG-II : 12 Fokker T9.
III Group
1-VlG-III : 12 Fokker G1 Tjililitan, Batavia-Java
2-VlG-III : 12 Fokker G1.
3-VlG-III : 12 Fokker G1
IV Group
1-VlG-IV : 12 Fokker T9 Maospati, Madioen -Java
2-VlG-IV : 12 Fokker G1.
3-VlG-IV : 12 Fokker G1
V Group
1-VlG-V : 12 Fokker DXXI: I Patrouille,Tjililitan, Batavia-Java
: 12 Fokker DXXI: II Patrouille, Perak-Java.
2-VlG-V : 24 Fokker DXXI: I and II Patrouilles, Andir-Java
:12 Fokker DXXIII : III Patrouille, Perak-Java
3-VlG-V : 12 Fokker DXXI, Maospati, Madioen -Java
VI Group
1-VlG-VI : 24 Fokker DXXII and II Patrouille Samarinda II, Borneo.
: 12 Fokker DXXI III Patrouille Singkawang II, Borneo.
2-VlG-VI : 12 Fokker DXXI IV Patrouille Singkawang II, Borneo.

VII Group

1-VlG-VII : 12 Fokker DXXI Ambon Island
2-VlG-VII : 12 Fokker G1


Reconnaissance Squadrons
VkA1: 12 Fokker C X. biplanes
VkA2: 12 Fokker C X.
VkA3: 12 Fokker C X
VkA4: 12 Fokker C X
VkA5: 12 Koolhoven FK51 biplanes.
VkA6: 12 Koolhoven FK51.
VkA7: 12 Koolhoven FK51.
VkA8: 12 Fokker TV twin-engined ‘’long’’-range

Naval Air Service(Marine Luchvaart Dienst) organized in independent flightsof three aircraft)
GVT1 to GVT24 : 72 Dornier Do24K flying boats, called "X-Boots" by the Dutch, with 6 in reserve

GVT25 to GVT30 : 15 Fokker T8W floatplanes
Reserves
The flight schools provided enough aircraft to form an extra afdeling of Fokker G1, one of Lockheed L212s and two Koolhoven for the air force.
The naval air service also had 26 Fokker C5D and Es and 11 C14Ws on hand.

Early half of the thirties the way of defending the airspace of the Dutch east indies was thought to be with a single engine aircraft. Fokker was asked to build a prototype after specifications. The result was the DXXI. The result was disappointing, it was a typical Fokker design, metal tube frame, covered with linen and around the cockpit metal sheets and a wooden wing and fixed landing gear. Never the less it proved to be a rugged plane, easy in flight and maintenance and above all, cheep to produce. Most of the plane were to be build in a assembly line on Java. Initial a small order was made but followed soon others orders and several improved versions. All related to heavier engines or different armament configurations.
Soon was realized that short ranged fighters alone were not enough for the air defense. A solution was thought to be found in the Fokker G1.
The Fokker G1 was a private enterprise of the Fokker company according to specifications of the French armed forces. Despite a sensational entrance on the Paris aviation show the French did not showed interest. The Belgians however were looking for a light bomber and reconnaissance plane, with possibility to use it as a heavy fighter, in order to modernize and expand their fleet of Fairley Foxes.
One of the conditions was that it had to be fitted with the Belgian produced Hispano Suiza liquid cooled, line engines.
Most of the G1 were build by Renard who delivered also the fighter R36 for Belgium.


Dutch East Indian air force

The Dutch East Indies air force however preferred American air cooled radial engines as used in their DXXI. This resulted in the development of two different planes on the same air frame.
The GI was stil a half metal, partly linen cover plane with a wooden wing.
The armament arrangement was copied from the Belgians; 2x 20mm guns, 2 x 7,9 mm MG in the nose and 1x 7,9mm MG in the tail and some 400Kg of bombs.

The G1 was thought to be to light as bomber so the new now true all metal Fokker T9 was purchased with the intention of replacing the G1’s over time.
The Fokker DXXI was intend to be replaced by modern fighters most likely from American designers, but one squadron was equipped with the latest Fokker DXXIII.
 
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Andre27

Banned
Interesting. The G1 and DXXI are said to have caused considerable pain to the German Luftwaffe in 1940 so to see them against Japan would be interesting.

AFAIK this naval task force for the defense of DEI is far larger than the OTL forces, especially the submarines.

Having said that, considering how the Japanese wrecked allied forces in OTL i don't think this enlargement will have enough impact to prevent Japan from landing/taking over the DEI
 
I know the Japanese tries to negotiate over oil with the Dutch East Indies before deciding on war. What level of government did they have after the fall of the Netherlands to Germany? Might having a stronger defence actually make their political will stronger, and have them defy US pressure and agree to sell oil to the Japanese?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 

Rubicon

Banned
Exactly where is the Netherlands going to find the cash and resources to build such a defense?
 
OTL the Netherlands had the resourses to afford a few battleships, these were not made/bought but the resources were there. As to Submarines, the Netherlands was a leading nation with them and used them to great affect according the Rijk.
 
Forget about the Japansese, the Allies gained 4 battlecruisers out of nowhere. The British are going to do their darnedest to get those ships in the Atlantic to help protect from raiders.
 
andd the Dutch will not care about what the Brits want, they'll keep their ships in Indië to keep Indië safe
 

Rubicon

Banned
OTL the Netherlands had the resourses to afford a few battleships, these were not made/bought but the resources were there.
They may be so, but what were those resources used for in OTL that they aren't being used for here?
 

BlondieBC

Banned
It will take the better part of a decade to build up these defenses, and this means the Dutch started a major rearmament program by the early 1930's, which means you have massive butterflies such as Hitler wanting the Dutch to join the Axis. Hitler having many half completed ships in Dutch shipyards if he conquers the Netherlands. Mussolini recruiting the Dutch. Japan viewing the Dutch as a valuable ally. The Dutch may not feel as threatened so may not join the ABDA. So many butterflies. We still have WW2, but it could be a lot different.
 
They may be so, but what were those resources used for in OTL that they aren't being used for here?

I imagine the Zuiderzee Works took quite some money.

Still a better investment though, so good luck in persuading the government to put the money in battlcruisers.

Also, three battlecruisers were actually supposed to be laid down in late 1940, so there was certainly some money for these ships.
 
this is the battlecruiser design

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_1047_battlecruiser

but if the airforce/navy is so much bigger, then i expect the KNIL land forces also to be bigger, better trained and better equipped.

its gonna make an invasion much more costly for the japs.

but 42 O-19 & O-21-class subs :drool: thats the real headache for them, at 10K nautical miles range they can cause considerable trouble for them.
Remember these are subs with snorkels, so much more efficient submerged.
 
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Rather than use the 1940 battlecruiser design/plan which would be much too late to be useful to this scenario, you need to resurrect the 1914 plan in the late 1920s.. It was initially scrapped to build the cruisers in the early 1920s instead, but if it were then decided to resurrect the plan to have the battlecruisers by the early 1930s, you could see this level of force by 1940/41 when it is needed for this scenario

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Rather than use the 1940 battlecruiser design/plan which would be much too late to be useful to this scenario, you need to resurrect the 1914 plan in the late 1920s.. It was initially scrapped to build the cruisers in the early 1920s instead, but if it were then decided to resurrect the plan to have the battlecruisers by the early 1930s, you could see this level of force by 1940/41 when it is needed for this scenario
Best Regards
Grey Wolf

Or with this in mind - before it gets scrapped have HMS Tiger!! And the Dutch yard modernise it.
 
How much of Indonesia needs to be sufficiently defended for this to count?

I'd say Java (, Bali) and the Maluku Islands, seeing that those were the areas the Dutch needed the most. Having Bali also allows for a less broken chain between the two others. Also, Batavia should be a must.
 
IIRC Sumatra had the oil wells, which was what Japan was most interested in.

But if the island is lost they can always be sabotaged.
 
Thanks for the input so far.

Money and resources were in place only there was no political will to use them.
As proposed for the pre-WW1 battle ship plan, part of the costs would be taken by the Dutch East Indian gouvernment. And also as in the proposals mentioned, the KNIl, the colonial army, would be dissolved or more likely transformed in a colonial police or gendarmerie. Any land forces would be delivered by marines.
The air force as mentioned is just a few air groups larger than OTL, only with slightly modern planes.

The idea is that there were some capital ships in service of the Dutch navy and there was more concern of defending neutrality. This could be accieved due to an involvement in the Great War, which make it clear that a declaration of neutrality laone is not enough to keep invading armie or navies away.
 
A direct involvement in WW1 is not really needed, the Dutch just need to feel more of it.

In OTL the British sunk and took various Dutch ship during the war because they feared the supplies they carried were for the German war effort. If more ships are stolen/sunk then in OTL but not enough to warrant joining in on the war, the Idea of defending neutrality would be more wide spread.

Another thing could be for the Entente to decide that the Dutch were not Neutral and give Brabant, Zeelandic Flanders and Limburg to Belgium. The Dutch would be incapable of fighting the Entente because they'd lose. These plans did exist in OTL, especially in Belgium. And if the Entente decided to do so, or simply attempted to do so, the Dutch would start increasing their army and most importantly their navy big time.
 
I know the Japanese tries to negotiate over oil with the Dutch East Indies before deciding on war. What level of government did they have after the fall of the Netherlands to Germany? Might having a stronger defence actually make their political will stronger, and have them defy US pressure and agree to sell oil to the Japanese?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

Exactly where is the Netherlands going to find the cash and resources to build such a defense?

Where is japan going to find the cash and resources to buy the oil?

The netherlands selling oil probably postpones the crisis for only a year or so, by which point all those essexs will be that much closer to completion, and wake island well defended.

Not to mention all the buffalos replaced by wildcats.
 

GarethC

Donor
Where is japan going to find the cash and resources to buy the oil?
From the conquest of China by the IJA, of course.
[Top Gear]How hard can it be? [/Top Gear]

The whole Japanese strategy was predicated on the Dutch and British being walkovers (which they pretty much were). If the IJN believed that was not the case then they'd try something else.

The catch is, without another Japan-centric POD to change the IJN mindset, the IJN was institutionally incapable of believing that.
 
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