The Duke of Bourbon becomes King of France in 1525

The Avenger

Banned
Here's the scenario:

Charles, Count of Angouleme ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles,_Count_of_Angoulême ) has another daughter instead of a son in 1494 and dies before he's able to have any more children. Meanwhile, King Louis XII of France still dies without having any surviving sons in 1515. The new French King is Charles IV, Duke of Alencon--who becomes known as King Charles IX. He dies in 1525 without having any surviving sons of his own, and the new French King becomes Charles III, Duke of Bourbon--from the elder branch of the House of Bourbon (this branch died out in 1527 in our TL as a result of Charles's death during the Sack of Rome; this event doesn't happen in this TL). The Duke of Bourbon becomes King Charles X of France.

Anyway, what kind of King would this TL's Charles X (AKA Charles III, Duke of Bourbon) be?

Also, if Charles has at least one surviving son in this TL and thus ensures that the elder branch of the House of Bourbon survives, how different is the elder branch of the House of Bourbon going to be in governing France in comparison to how the younger branch of the House of Bourbon (the House of Bourbon-Vendome) governed France starting from 1589 in our TL?

Thoughts?
 
I'm assuming you're positing a nigh-ÒTL situation with François I removed? Cause there might be a hiccup in the early 1500s.

Suzanne de Bourbon, daughter of Pierre II, duc de Bourbon and Anne de France, was acknowledged as heiress suo jure to her dad's lands. Then, she was betrothed to her cousin, the Comte de Montpensier (elder brother to the future Connetable). However, the Comte remarked that he had no reason to thank his wife (Suzanne) for what should've been his anyway. This caused friction between Pierre and his nephew, and Suzanne was instead betrothed to the young duc d'Alençon. However, Pierre and Montpensier died shortly after one another and the Alençon betrothal was cancelled, while Suzanne got married to the Connetable.

Here, in such a situation, Suzanne's main competitor for the position of duchesse d'Alençon will be Claude de France, duchesse de Bretagne. Alençon himself has a claim to Brittany, which might mean he sees Claude as a better match. However, Suzanne has a very nice inheritance, which means that he might decide to go with that - depends on how Louis XII feels about it, really.

If the Connetable still marries as OTL (and has one or two living kids) I'd say we might even see Anne de France playing a similar role to Louise de Savoie for a while (even if she doesn't live to see her daughter become queen of France, she'd still be a powerful player at court once Louis XII dies).

Note: I'd add @Philippe le Bel and @BlueFlowwer to your paging as well
 
I'm assuming you're positing a nigh-ÒTL situation with François I removed? Cause there might be a hiccup in the early 1500s.

Suzanne de Bourbon, daughter of Pierre II, duc de Bourbon and Anne de France, was acknowledged as heiress suo jure to her dad's lands. Then, she was betrothed to her cousin, the Comte de Montpensier (elder brother to the future Connetable). However, the Comte remarked that he had no reason to thank his wife (Suzanne) for what should've been his anyway. This caused friction between Pierre and his nephew, and Suzanne was instead betrothed to the young duc d'Alençon. However, Pierre and Montpensier died shortly after one another and the Alençon betrothal was cancelled, while Suzanne got married to the Connetable.

Here, in such a situation, Suzanne's main competitor for the position of duchesse d'Alençon will be Claude de France, duchesse de Bretagne. Alençon himself has a claim to Brittany, which might mean he sees Claude as a better match. However, Suzanne has a very nice inheritance, which means that he might decide to go with that - depends on how Louis XII feels about it, really.

If the Connetable still marries as OTL (and has one or two living kids) I'd say we might even see Anne de France playing a similar role to Louise de Savoie for a while (even if she doesn't live to see her daughter become queen of France, she'd still be a powerful player at court once Louis XII dies).

Note: I'd add @Philippe le Bel and @BlueFlowwer to your paging as well

Philippe le Bel's been banned.
 

The Avenger

Banned
I'm assuming you're positing a nigh-ÒTL situation with François I removed? Cause there might be a hiccup in the early 1500s.

Suzanne de Bourbon, daughter of Pierre II, duc de Bourbon and Anne de France, was acknowledged as heiress suo jure to her dad's lands. Then, she was betrothed to her cousin, the Comte de Montpensier (elder brother to the future Connetable). However, the Comte remarked that he had no reason to thank his wife (Suzanne) for what should've been his anyway. This caused friction between Pierre and his nephew, and Suzanne was instead betrothed to the young duc d'Alençon. However, Pierre and Montpensier died shortly after one another and the Alençon betrothal was cancelled, while Suzanne got married to the Connetable.

Yes, that is correct.

Here, in such a situation, Suzanne's main competitor for the position of duchesse d'Alençon will be Claude de France, duchesse de Bretagne. Alençon himself has a claim to Brittany, which might mean he sees Claude as a better match. However, Suzanne has a very nice inheritance, which means that he might decide to go with that - depends on how Louis XII feels about it, really.

Wouldn't Anne de France (Pierre II's wife) still insist on a marriage between Suzanne and the Connetable, though?

I seem to recall that it was Pierre II's death which ensured that Suzanne would get married to the Connetable instead of to the Duc d'Alencon.

If the Connetable still marries as OTL (and has one or two living kids) I'd say we might even see Anne de France playing a similar role to Louise de Savoie for a while (even if she doesn't live to see her daughter become queen of France, she'd still be a powerful player at court once Louis XII dies).

Note: I'd add @Philippe le Bel and @BlueFlowwer to your paging as well

What would Anne de France (Pierre II's widow) do with her new power at the French court starting from 1515?

Also, what kind of French King would the Connetable be?

Finally, how would the House of Bourbon-Vendome feel about all of this?
 
Finally, how would the House of Bourbon-Vendome feel about all of thi

With their hands most likely ;)

How should they? The Connetable's line is senior to theirs, no ifs or buts. Sure, the two branches might not get along, but it's kind of like asking how might the princes de Condé or de Conti feel if the Orléans ended up on the French thone in the 1720s. They might not like each other, but they're not going to start a civil war over it - they'd probably just pick a side. The Vendômes, IIRC, were the poorer of the 2 Bourbon branches at that point (that only started to change once Alençon died and his sisters (one of whom was duchesse de Vendôme) got what his widow didn't). The Connetable's lands wound up with Louise de Savoie, then her grandson, Charles, duc d'Angoulême. I'm not sure if they ended up back with the Bourbons before 1589. Help @Cornelis?
 

The Avenger

Banned
With their hands most likely ;)

I don't get it.

How should they? The Connetable's line is senior to theirs, no ifs or buts. Sure, the two branches might not get along, but it's kind of like asking how might the princes de Condé or de Conti feel if the Orléans ended up on the French thone in the 1720s. They might not like each other, but they're not going to start a civil war over it - they'd probably just pick a side. The Vendômes, IIRC, were the poorer of the 2 Bourbon branches at that point (that only started to change once Alençon died and his sisters (one of whom was duchesse de Vendôme) got what his widow didn't). The Connetable's lands wound up with Louise de Savoie, then her grandson, Charles, duc d'Angoulême. I'm not sure if they ended up back with the Bourbons before 1589. Help @Cornelis?

Understood.

Also, what kind of French King would the Connetable be?

Finally, how would the senior branch of the House of Bourbon govern France differently from how the House of Bourbon-Vendome governed France after 1589 in our TL?
 
Anyway, what kind of King would this TL's Charles X (AKA Charles III, Duke of Bourbon) be?
Well, first, a military minded ruler with possibly more skills than Francis I on this matter, but also less politically wise (when put in a corner, Charles wasn't really at his best).
I would think Charles X would still pull something similar to the Franco-Ottoman alliance as there was no much alternative at this point but I'm unsure on how it would differ from IOTL. I'd certainly expect more French success in Italy, maybe up to control of Milanais ITTL if Charles knows how and where to end. How long would it last however...

Also, if Charles has at least one surviving son in this TL and thus ensures that the elder branch of the House of Bourbon survives, how different is the elder branch of the House of Bourbon going to be in governing France in comparison to how the younger branch of the House of Bourbon (the House of Bourbon-Vendome) governed France starting from 1589 in our TL?
This really, really heavily depends on how Wars of Religion goes ITTL. I can't see Charles X having more patience about Protestantism than Francis I, especially if Protestants pull the same bad idea of almost breaking in the royal chamber to post their flyers. Frankly, go crazy there because so much would be butterflied you could either end up with an earlier stabilized France, especially with secure succession; or with a subjugation from Habsburgs if too many missteps (altough probably relatively temporary).
 

The Avenger

Banned
Well, first, a military minded ruler with possibly more skills than Francis I on this matter, but also less politically wise (when put in a corner, Charles wasn't really at his best).

What would the lack of political wisdom translate to?

Also, might Charles want to capture Mantua since that is where his mother is from?

I would think Charles X would still pull something similar to the Franco-Ottoman alliance as there was no much alternative at this point but I'm unsure on how it would differ from IOTL. I'd certainly expect more French success in Italy, maybe up to control of Milanais ITTL if Charles knows how and where to end. How long would it last however...

Does he also go for Mantua for personal and sentimental reasons?

This really, really heavily depends on how Wars of Religion goes ITTL. I can't see Charles X having more patience about Protestantism than Francis I, especially if Protestants pull the same bad idea of almost breaking in the royal chamber to post their flyers. Frankly, go crazy there because so much would be butterflied you could either end up with an earlier stabilized France, especially with secure succession; or with a subjugation from Habsburgs if too many missteps (altough probably relatively temporary).

How exactly would the Habsburgs subjugate France?

Also, does the position of the House of Bourbon-Vendome in this TL improve or does Charles prefer keeping them relatively impoverished?

In addition, what would the domestic policy (in terms of economics, colonization, etc) of Charles and his successors look like?
 
What would the lack of political wisdom translate to?
Relatively speaking, and trying to be cautious about it : less able to define clear middle-term and long-term objectives.
IOTL his ambitions were quite disproportionate to his position, and while it might be a consequences of his exile, I wonder how much it wouldn't impact ITTL.

Also, might Charles want to capture Mantua since that is where his mother is from?
I doubt it : not only he would know his right on Mantua are at best extremely thin, but Mantua was generally within the French sphere of influence in Italy and a valuable (if not always willing) ally.

How exactly would the Habsburgs subjugate France?
I don't know : he could be in a similar situation than Francis I but unable to really avoid loosing Burgundy. Or a War of Religion crisis happen more or less as IOTL and with enough political instability, having France being unable to really reapel a Ligue-like movement.

Also, does the position of the House of Bourbon-Vendome in this TL improve or does Charles prefer keeping them relatively impoverished?
I think the second, especially if Bourbons-Vendôme doesn't manage to gather as much holdings ITTL if most of the troubles of the XVIth are avoided.

In addition, what would the domestic policy (in terms of economics, colonization, etc) of Charles and his successors look like?
Again, it could go either way : while I think Charles X would have the same broad policies than Francis I, it's really hard to go further as most of the XVIth really could either way without or with a different Wars of Religion IMO (well, with some limitations of course : a Protestant France is hugely unlikely).
 
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