The Dominion of New England

Very interesting ideas here, what time would this trek and the sale occur, 1689 right?

Would this kind of messy situation be an opening for the Spanish to make a grab for Georgia?
 
Very interesting ideas here, what time would this trek and the sale occur, 1689 right?

Would this kind of messy situation be an opening for the Spanish to make a grab for Georgia?

Well, Georgia wont exist until 1733 OTL, so more likely Georgia never gets started. Probably we'd see North Florida instead.
 

Glen

Moderator
Weird, I thought I started this thread....I am beginning to be unable to tell the difference between Thande and myself:eek:.

Anyway, I think there may be a chance if the first Governor of the Dominion of New England is Thomas Dongan. More later....

I think I will hijack this thread for a bit longer just to get some of the rough ideas out before spawning a completely new thread on the subject.

Some information about OTL's Thomas Dongan.

wikipedia said:
James, Duke of York, who had served as a fellow officer of Dongan's in French army, arranged to have him granted a pension and high-ranking commission in the army and designated for service in Flanders. That same year, he was appointed Lieutenant-Governor of Tangiers. In 1682, James, who had become the Lord Proprietor of the Province of New York after it was acquired from the Dutch, appointed Dongan as provincial governor (1684-1688) and granted him an estate on Staten Island. The stone farmhouse was called Christopher House. The estate eventually became the town of Castleton; later, another section of the island was named Dongan Hills in honor of Dongan. He was replaced as Governor by Francis Nicholson.

At the time of his appointment, the province was bankrupt and in a state of rebellion caused by the mismanagement of the previous governor. Dongan was able to restore order and stability through tactful means. On October 14, 1683, he convened the first-ever representative assembly in New York history, which convened at Fort James.

It should be noted at the end of his tenure James II (the former Duke of York) offered to make him a major general, but instead Dongan chose to retire to his estate on Staten Island. Dongan had served in France under Turenne and apparently distinguished himself at Flanders.

New Advent article from Catholic Encyclopedia.

The Duke of York signed and sealed the Charter 4 Oct., 1684; but never returned it, probably for reasons of prudence, for at the time Charles II had, by a quo warranto proceeding, abolished the Charters of New England, and the Charter of Pennsylvania granted in 1684 distinctly admits the right of Parliament to tax the colonies.

At the death of Charles II, 1685, James Duke of York was proclaimed king, and New York became a royal province.

The Board of Trade and Plantations, under whose supervision the province passed, vetoed the Charter of Liberties and James approved the veto. The colonists were disappointed, but such was the moral strength of Governor Dongan that we find no trace of popular resentment.

In 1685 Dongan established a post office in New York for the better correspondence of the colonies in America.
And from this site by Andrew Cusack

It was in 1682 that James, Duke of York, as Lord Proprietor of New York, appointed Thomas Dongan to govern the bankrupt colony. “In this office,” the Catholic Encyclopedia says, “Dongan proved himself an able lawgiver, and left an indelible mark on political and constitutional history.” He convened the first representative assembly of the Province in 1683, which enacted the Charter of Liberties enunciating the form of government in New York. The Duke of York’s supreme legislative power as Lord Proprietor would reside in a governor, council, and general assembly. Members of the assembly were conferred rights and privileges making their august legislature coequal to and independent of Parliament. Courts of justice were established, liberty of conscience regarding religion was declared, and the principle of no taxation without representation was affirmed. Dongan signed the Charter of Liberties on 30 October 1683, and solemnly proclaimed it the next day at the Stadt Huys, New York’s city hall.

“Thus to Dongan’s term as governor,” quoth the Encyclopedia, “can be dated the Magna Charta of American constitutional liberties, for his system of government became the programme of continuous political agitation by the colonists of New York Province during the eighteenth century. It developed naturally into the present state government, and many of its principles passed into the framework of the Federal Government. Moreover, a rare tribute to his genius, the government imposed by him on New York Province, 1683, was adopted by England after the American War of Independence as the framework of her colonial policy, and constitutes the present [1909] form of government in Canada, Australia, and the Transvaal.”

The peace and harmony of the Province was furthered in 1684 when Dongan, in the presence of Lord Howard, the Governor of Virginia, received the voluntary submission of the Iroquois confederacy to “the Great Sachem Charles”. The following year saw the death of Charles II and the ascent of the Lord Proprietor, James, Duke of York, to the thrones of England, Scotland, and Ireland. In that year of 1685, Dongan established a Post Office to strengthen communications within his colony and between all the English colonies in America. In the next year, 1686, the Governor granted civic charters to New York and Albany. Dongan’s charter for the City of New York lasted 135 years, while that of Albany was only replaced in 1870. Avid historians would have been bemused/irritated by Archdiocese’s celebration just a few years ago of the two-hundredth anniversary of Catholic education in New York. This would be because New York’s first Catholic school was not in the 1800’s during the republic’s early years but in the 1680’s when Governor Dongan established a college (in the secondary sense) under the guidance of three Jesuit priests, one of whom was his own private chaplain.

The tribute of history to his personal charm, his integrity, and character, is outspoken and universal. His public papers give evidence of a keen mind and a sense of humour. He was a man of courage, tact, and capacity, an able diplomat, and a statesman of prudence and remarkable foresight. In spite of the brief term of five years as Governor of New York Province, by virtue of the magnitude, of the enduring and far-reaching character of his achievements, he stands forth as one of the greatest constructive statesmen ever sent out by England for the government of any of her American colonial possessions.

2ndEarlOfLimerick.gif


Thomas Dongan crop.png
 

Glen

Moderator

Okay, so here is the POD, changes from OTL in Blue:

The Duke of York signed and sealed the Charter 4 Oct., 1684; but waits to return it until the death of Charles II in 1685, when James Duke of York was proclaimed king, and New York became a royal province.

The Board of Trade and Plantations, under whose supervision the province passed, vetoed the Charter of Liberties, but James did not approve the veto and was offended that the Board would challenge his (albeit reluctant) previous assent to the charter. Not only did he not approve the veto, but in 1686, when he approved the creation of a new Dominion of New England, he added New York to the colonies involved and appointed his Governor in New York, Thomas Dongan, as the first Governor-General of the Dominion. Thomas Dongan took a diplomatic course in governance of the new Dominion, and early on established a Charter for the joint governance of the provinces that comprised the Dominion that respected their previous individual charters locally while regulating interstate affairs and coordinating responses to threats faced by the joint Dominion, such as hostile Indians and New France. In 1688, East and West Jersey were added to the Dominion.

Rumor of the latter termed 'Glorious Revolution' reached the Dominion in mid 1689. Such was the moral strength of Governor Dongan that we find no trace of popular unrest, though tensions were heightened. In only a matter of weeks, however, attacks began from New France. Governor-General Dongan personally took command of a joint province Dominion force and marched north. The French in the New World had badly miscalculated. While only a mere five years before they might have been able to use the disunity of the English provinces against themselves and nullify their advantage in population, Under the competent command of Governor-General Dongan (now general in fact as well as title), and with the greater number of men able to be sent to battle, New France was defeated in a series of battles. A distracted Europe continued to fight between Williamite England and France, hardly noting the result in the New World.

Okay, that's about where I am. The question is, when England finally gets undistracted, do they replace Dongan (who is Catholic), and if so,with whom and when? I'd like any replacement to be about the best we can get, if this nascent Dominion is to have a chance of surviving.
 
Perhaps a chance to get a native-born American in the governorship position then? I have to check my lists again for how soon colonials began becoming governors, but a native colonial in such an important position will probably assuage some fears and show the Crown is ready to give a bit of faith to the colonies in return for such an unpopular experiment (albeit, in this Dongan scenario, it's slowly working through).

Personally I wonder if we'll get a form of federalism about eighty years earlier to also make this work...especially since in Glen had the Dominion conquer Canada and Acadia (and let's face it, a much greater chance to Anglicize ala New York this early on in capture). All these new New French in addition to the New Netherlanders will mean the English will have to find some vague middle ground to keep revolts from happening.

I also wonder if a southern Dominion will be made, especially with just Carolina (no division yet..) being the only other southern colony besides Virginia and Maryland. Pennsylvania will go to New England...the Mason-Dixon line will be the dividing line for the Dominion of Virginia...;)
 

Glen

Moderator
Perhaps a chance to get a native-born American in the governorship position then? I have to check my lists again for how soon colonials began becoming governors, but a native colonial in such an important position will probably assuage some fears and show the Crown is ready to give a bit of faith to the colonies in return for such an unpopular experiment

Yes, but who?

(albeit, in this Dongan scenario, it's slowly working through).

Very slowly, and its fragile, that's why we need a strong follow up.

Personally I wonder if we'll get a form of federalism about eighty years earlier to also make this work...

I'd say yes.

especially since in Glen had the Dominion conquer Canada and Acadia (and let's face it, a much greater chance to Anglicize ala New York this early on in capture).

Good point. It was only several thousand French in New France....then again, we still talk of Cajuns (Acadians).

All these new New French in addition to the New Netherlanders will mean the English will have to find some vague middle ground to keep revolts from happening.

Yes, a muddled middle ground indeed.

I also wonder if a southern Dominion will be made, especially with just Carolina (no division yet..) being the only other southern colony besides Virginia and Maryland. Pennsylvania will go to New England...the Mason-Dixon line will be the dividing line for the Dominion of Virginia...;)

I too think we might see a Southern Dominion, or maybe two. I could see a Dominion of Carolina, Dominion of Virginia (with Maryland), and a Dominion of New England (and yes, Pennsylvania will be joining it, and soon).
 
Ah, well that is a point. I've previously noticed the rather speedy population growth of the American colonies after the 1600s...it almost smacks of OTL's author wanting to write an Ameriwank, something like the rapid expansion of Stirling's Draka, and not getting it quite plausible ;)

Psh, the American colonists were hitting 2-2.5% growth rates (less than the 3% the Quebeckers managed most years by the way), prefectly plausible in a disease light and an unexploited ecological niche.

Stirling postulated 6-8% growth rates, in Africa, because Draka are like aphids - born pregant with the next generation of the blight!
 

Teleology

Banned
The irony of a New England boertrek would be that, weren't the French more interested in the wilderness that said people would be trekking to than thoroughly settling the seaboard? I was under the impression that as long as they control the rich fur trade of Eastern Canada and Ohio Territory, and the useful port of New Orleans, they would be happy.

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Glen

Moderator
The irony of a New England boertrek would be that, weren't the French more interested in the wilderness that said people would be trekking to than thoroughly settling the seaboard? I was under the impression that as long as they control the rich fur trade of Eastern Canada and Ohio Territory, and the useful port of New Orleans, they would be happy.

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Maybe, though it depends when. Also depends what else is on the bargaining table. Bottom line, New France was always low on the 'must keep' list for France.
 
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