The Divided Nations of America

The states gradually gave up their claims from 1782-1802. So some of the claims still existed in 1789, and those that had been given up would probably be reasserted in this TL.

AFAIK, the last state to give up her western claims was Connecticut, in 1785. Once these claims are given up it's going to be very, very hard to break the Union because the 'National Domain', as it was called, is going to be the subject of large scale colonization almost immediately by people from every state.
 
AFAIK, the last state to give up her western claims was Connecticut, in 1785. Once these claims are given up it's going to be very, very hard to break the Union because the 'National Domain', as it was called, is going to be the subject of large scale colonization almost immediately by people from every state.

Connecticut may have given up its claims but it retained the rights to the Western reserve for its military veterans as did Virginia in the Scioto tract.
 
AFAIK, the last state to give up her western claims was Connecticut, in 1785.

Virginia gave up Kentuckey in 1792. North Carolina gave up Tennessee in 1796. Georgia didn't give up its claims to Mississippi/Alabama until 1802. But you are right that Conneticut was the last state to give up its claim to the Northwest Territory in 1786. Virginia, New York, and Massechusetts gave up their claims to the Northwest Territory between 1782 and 1785.
 
Virginia gave up Kentuckey in 1792. North Carolina gave up Tennessee in 1796. Georgia didn't give up its claims to Mississippi/Alabama until 1802. But you are right that Conneticut was the last state to give up its claim to the Northwest Territory in 1786. Virginia, New York, and Massechusetts gave up their claims to the Northwest Territory between 1782 and 1785.

If the AoC fail though argueably some of those cessions won't occur. NY which might have already given theirs up will no doubt want to reassert them. Massachusetts and Connecticut which have claims but are not in a position to really do much about it could give those claims up to another that is in a position to do so.

Pennsylvania which is one of the best positioned among the northern states for expansion has no claims in the west.

Argueably NY and Penn and perhaps the New England states should band together in a stronger union of their own to assert their claims .. Of course they could also sell/trade them to Pennsylvania/Virginia or even back to Britain if need be if they can find the right terms.

There are a number of ways this could go really
 
Argueably NY and Penn and perhaps the New England states should band together in a stronger union of their own to assert their claims .. Of course they could also sell/trade them to Pennsylvania/Virginia or even back to Britain if need be if they can find the right terms.

There are a number of ways this could go really
I think that many (if not all) of the states would quickly find that complete independence is hugely inferior to even a weak union. Divided they are weak and vulnerable to aggression from other states and foreign powers (Britain, France, Spain, etc). Virginia would be in a good position to dominate much of the former US - Kentucky was a county of Virginia, and state had the resources to enforce its claims in the northwest.

So I think it is likely that much of the north - Massachusetts (including Maine), New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New York, and probably Pennsylvania (they have no claims in the west so have nothing to lose) would band together to protect their interests.
 
If the Phidelphia Consitution is not Adopted nor the AoC major admended, I still see the States Continueing to give lip service to the AoC US.

This AoC may be no more Powerful than todays UN, But the states will find it useful to maintain the illusion of a united voice when doing things like negotiating the Barbary Tribute.
 

NothingNow

Banned
If it can get it's act together the Western (Miami) Confederacy might survive in some form or another especially if Chief Joseph Brant (Thayendanegea) can convince the various tribes (including the Iroquois) to integrate more. and If the United States falls apart before 1792 they might be able to control every thing north of the Ohio river and probably a bit more than that. Especially since the only states that might have been strong enough to fight them individually were Virginia and New York, and I doubt they could pull it off, with New York having more pressing Issues and Virginia having a whole other path of expansion south.

I can also see Florida staying Spanish. And the 5 civilized tribes being able to put up a good enough fight to stay independent if Georgia or the Carolinas cause trouble, Virginia might be more of an issue for them.

So, between the Atlantic and the Mississippi we'd have a dozen independent States easy. Maybe even two dozen.
 
I think that Mexico would likely replace America as a superpower, so long as the butterflies don't operate in strange ways.

Does anyone think that the situation in this Norh America could become like that in Sub-saharan africa, given a few centuries?
 
If it can get it's act together the Western (Miami) Confederacy might survive in some form or another especially if Chief Joseph Brant (Thayendanegea) can convince the various tribes (including the Iroquois) to integrate more.
Why would the United States falling apart cause the Amerindians to unite more than in OTL? The Western Confederacy came about as a result of US pressure to settle the Northwest Territory. With multiple states holding contradicting claims, and many of them attempting to enforce them (Connecticut going west from the Western Reserve, Viringians traveling north and along the Ohio, etc) there is going to be less unification amongst the tribes due to the lack of a concerted enemy.

...with New York having more pressing Issues and Virginia having a whole other path of expansion south.
This is the time where you admit that you have no idea what issues New York would be dealing with.
Also, why would Virginia expand south? They would control Kentucky AIOTL, and from there the only place for their settlers to go would be north, into the Northwest Territory - most of which (surprise!) was claimed by Virginia.

I can also see Florida staying Spanish. And the 5 civilized tribes being able to put up a good enough fight to stay independent if Georgia or the Carolinas cause trouble, Virginia might be more of an issue for them.
I assume you are unaware of two facts: that settlement in the OTL Mississippi Territory was mostly unrelated to federal authority, being mostly independent Georgian settlers, and American colonization of Florida was similarly not a government initiative.

So, between the Atlantic and the Mississippi we'd have a dozen independent States easy. Maybe even two dozen.
Err... with thirteen colonies going their separate ways (IMO that itself is ASB), plus the Vermont Republic, that's fourteen. (Even in OTL there were at least that many states for a while, and more if you include the Amerindian tribes.)

I find it hard to swallow that all the states would break off all the ties with all of the other states after fighting a war of independence from Great Britain. Worst case scenario (that's a relative term) the AoC could have been amended at Philadelphia in 1787, leading to a weaker central government still with the power to tax, and maybe raise troops. But I don't think any of the states were stupid enough to think that they could survive on their own.
 

NothingNow

Banned
rcduggan,
They don't have to unite more than OTL, they have to co-operate more. The Western Confederacy would most likely still exist because the incursions would still continue, and it would be in the member tribes best interests to stay in the confederacy because it represents a United Front against the Spanish, British, and Americans. The Confederacy would actually fair better in a world where the US had broken up because it can play the states off against each other, and because the states would be fighting each other over their claims.

So, I misspoke on Virginia and New York, but then again I was chasing the butterflies from a United states divided sort of POD, and thinking that New York might be Distracted by a New England Confederation of some sort.

Florida will stay Spanish, It might go French if TTL has a counterpart for Napoleon and he decides that he wants a New World Empire. Georgians or not, Because while Spain could care less about law and order in Florida They want to control the Florida Strait.

The Settlers were not the Issue for the 5 tribes really, It was the Indian removal act that was. and the AoC government couldn't enforce that. neither could Georgia, Virginia and the Carolinas acting on their own.

about the Dozen Nations thing I was thinking that New England might confederate and either Virginia or Pennsylvania would hold Maryland and/or Delaware.

I honestly think that the AoC govenment would dissolve sooner or later. Politicians are that stupid. New England used to threaten secession every few years at the beginning, South Carolina threatened secession over Nullification of all things, and Hell, the Conch Republic's (Key West, FL) been de jure independent for over 20 years now. There is nothing more American than trying to declare your Independence from America.

Besides, the thread title is "The Divided Nations of America" it's kinda implicit that the United States dissolves, sorry.
 
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