The discovery of the Aztecs and Incas are delayed to the 16th and early 17th century

The Coca leaf has addictive qualities, that's why the Aztecs would put anyone under 50 who used it to death.It would become a cash crop and pirates would be after coca leafs as much as gold.
There were people messing around with chemistry in Europe,one of them might try to refine it.If there's money to be made somebody will do it.

People in Bolivia, Perú and Northern Argentina and Chile still consume Coca leaves regularly. It is a strong stimulant but not more addictive that coffee, tea or yerba mate and has little to no side effects besides anything associated with caffeine. A cocaine epidemic in the 16th century is ludricous.

I also have not heard of the Aztecs using coca, since it is consumed mostly in the Andes.
 
The Coca leaf has addictive qualities, that's why the Aztecs would put anyone under 50 who used it to death.It would become a cash crop and pirates would be after coca leafs as much as gold.
There were people messing around with chemistry in Europe,one of them might try to refine it.If there's money to be made somebody will do it.
That's interesting to hear, considering coca is native to South America and didn't make its way into Mexico (in North America) until at least the colonial period. I think I'll need a citation to believe Aztecs criminalized a plant they'd have never heard of.
 
I'm curious could the situation in the OP be done with a massive Mongol wank? War and pestilence sure does a number on a population.
The fact of the matter is once you invent boats with the ability to sail to the Cape and eventually India you are going to start getting a lot of young men with the balls to sail west along with a lot of rich folks who want to crush their competition so a new crusade or something to that nature can delay the Age of Discovery for only so long.
Even though for this situation to occur Europe would have to be devasted (given that the Aztecs and Inca still exist), the fate of Mesoamerica still essentially rests in how lenient Europeans want to be to whatever remnants remain of its disease-ridden population. Since disease travels faster than people, I think its best for the Aztecs, or whatever power(s) exists, if an ambitious conquistador attacks without proper alliances or resources, hopefully, for the Mesoamericans, either before disease has done its damage or after, and the population has somewhat recovered. If Mesoamericans successfully annihilate the invaders, and are given enough time to understand and implement some of these captured armaments (including horses) into their defenses, as well as recover from disease, they may be able to continue existing as a nation, or whatever term is best applicable.
 

ATP45

Banned
I am butterflying Columbus and the colonization of Americas and delaying the contact with the Aztecs and Incas, there might be some discovery but it would be the discovery of the OTL Quebec, Brazil and Newfoundland and it would take to late 16th to early 17th century for them to be discovered, can anyone help me.
Aztecs was arleady half beaten by Tarascans,who had bronze weapons,fought to kill,not capture and not use mass murder as sacrifice.So - no easy conqer there.
Incas - hmmm.... they had weak weapons,but competent ruler would never let spaniard catch him.
 
Aztecs was arleady half beaten by Tarascans,who had bronze weapons,fought to kill,not capture and not use mass murder as sacrifice.So - no easy conqer there.
Incas - hmmm.... they had weak weapons,but competent ruler would never let spaniard catch him.

There was bronze in the New World? Could you elaborate?
 
Incas are too quiet vulnerable. Diseases from Brazil would spread quickly to Inca Empire and devastate the empire greatly. It might survive but might be that not.

Can't know for sure but I'd say probably not. After all they were less precarious but still in the same situation as the Aztecs in that their conquered peoples rose up against them the first chance they got. Because of the plagues and internal dissent I'm not sure the Inca as a large empire would have survived another fifty years even without direct Spanish contact. I think fracturing of the Empire into smaller kingdoms is a distinct possibility as vassals regain their independence and there's a fight over the crown.
 
Aztecs had picked up on copper working and I think bronze working from Andean exchanges by the turn of the 15th century and were making progress of their own. Delaying the discovery of the New World means either the hurricane Columbus encountered in 1492 is much worse and the Portuguese ships that accidentally head west never return or the knowledge is lost before it gets to Europe. I think 50 years is more realistic as a maximum deadline and the South Africa might get more attention from Hispanic explorers as a potential colonization site/supply depot. Inka are likely to not only survive but might be able to grace the Caribbean and Atlantic via the Plata River and OTL Barranquilla with potential colonies in Panama as well. Aztecs are likely gone but perhaps a new Empire arises in their stead? North America had copper working at Cahokia and even earlier at the Great Lakes so maybe someone takes up the trade and develops more complete smitheries. The Iroquois likely come to greater prominence while the Taino might develop a more advanced civilization. The Amazon also had a burgeoning civilization on the cusp of a true state system supposedly, esp. near the mouth of the river and another on the Xingu river. Overall South America is more developed and North America is more fragmented
 
There was bronze in the New World? Could you elaborate?

Oh yes.

The Tarascans had begun using bronze, and exported it to the rest of Meso-America. It was a new discovery in the region, and they hadn't explored its uses much. The Tarascans were the only ones who'd really started experimenting beyond decoration and small tools, IIRC.

In the Andes bronze use was well-established, and there were varied applications.
 
Last edited:
Aztecs was arleady half beaten by Tarascans,who had bronze weapons,fought to kill,not capture and not use mass murder as sacrifice.So - no easy conqer there.

I think you oversimplify Aztec warfare. They were perfectly capable of fighting total war, and did so throughout their history. That Mexica aristocrats preferred to practice warfare in "honorable" circumstances that enhanced the social status of professional warriors doesn't indicate otherwise. I interpret the Flower Wars as essentially the same social structure as the complex of European efforts to manage their martial caste: crusades, tournaments, duels, chivalry, mercenary adventures, challenges, even the Arthurian legend as we know it.

Sure, the Combat of the Thirty ended with prisoner ransoms rather than cardioectomies, but the Aztecs sometimes ransomed prisoners too. And English knights sometimes just tortured their captives to death. You say potato.

Meanwhile, they fought total wars as total wars, because they were necessary.
 
Can't know for sure but I'd say probably not. After all they were less precarious but still in the same situation as the Aztecs in that their conquered peoples rose up against them the first chance they got. Because of the plagues and internal dissent I'm not sure the Inca as a large empire would have survived another fifty years even without direct Spanish contact. I think fracturing of the Empire into smaller kingdoms is a distinct possibility as vassals regain their independence and there's a fight over the crown.

The fringes of the Inca would splinter off, but the Inca are far less fragile than the Aztecs in an apocalyptic disease scenario (which would be somewhere between the Black Death and the OTL epidemics in the Andean region) and would be able to rise again, assuming they had decent leadership.

Aztecs had picked up on copper working and I think bronze working from Andean exchanges by the turn of the 15th century and were making progress of their own. Delaying the discovery of the New World means either the hurricane Columbus encountered in 1492 is much worse and the Portuguese ships that accidentally head west never return or the knowledge is lost before it gets to Europe. I think 50 years is more realistic as a maximum deadline and the South Africa might get more attention from Hispanic explorers as a potential colonization site/supply depot. Inka are likely to not only survive but might be able to grace the Caribbean and Atlantic via the Plata River and OTL Barranquilla with potential colonies in Panama as well. Aztecs are likely gone but perhaps a new Empire arises in their stead? North America had copper working at Cahokia and even earlier at the Great Lakes so maybe someone takes up the trade and develops more complete smitheries. The Iroquois likely come to greater prominence while the Taino might develop a more advanced civilization. The Amazon also had a burgeoning civilization on the cusp of a true state system supposedly, esp. near the mouth of the river and another on the Xingu river. Overall South America is more developed and North America is more fragmented

16th century North America was a mess, since a large amount of deurbanisation had taken place and places like Cahokia were abandoned, and not long after, so were most of the other Mississippian settlements, replaced by newer ones. The population seems to have dropped. Even without the epidemics of the 16th century (and shit like De Soto), there was a slight decline that was probably going to be replaced by something had Europeans not shown up. Also, the 16th century had some major droughts, including a 20-year drought (including in the Southeast) which IIRC was the last decade-long drought in Eastern North America.

What might make the Iroquois stand out if not for links with Europeans as in OTL? Also in that region, I believe the copper-working culture had gotten supplanted by a culture which didn't use copper.
 

ATP45

Banned
There was bronze in the New World? Could you elaborate?
Tarascans was only nation not coqered by Aztecs - they start to make bronze weapon short before Cortez.Unfortunatelly,that is all what i knew.Well,they fought to kill.
According to Aztecs chronicles,once from army of 20.000 survived 400.Why Aztecs must fail? becouse they fought to catch alive for next sacrifice,when Tarascans fought to kill.
 
Incan heartland may survive but the European contact might still cause severe depopulation and it's fall as a state within a generation or two. It might also kickstart public health and sanitation like no one's business
 
Top