I am butterflying Columbus and the colonization of Americas and delaying the contact with the Aztecs and Incas, there might be some discovery but it would be the discovery of the OTL Quebec, Brazil and Newfoundland and it would take to late 16th to early 17th century for them to be discovered, can anyone help me.
The discovery of the Aztecs and Incas are delayed to the 16th and early 17th century
- Thread starter kasumigenx
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I think if the Spanish don't hold the Aztecs, I think it would be Ferdinand not Charles V inheriting the Spanish Empire and Ferdinand marries Isabella of Portugal or any of Catherine of Aragon's daughters and Charles V marries Anne of Bohemia.
I think the Mayans and Tarascans would benefit from the fall of the Aztecs.
If we get any prolonged conflict in Mexico or South America there will be a lot of wounded soldgers introduced to a local pain treatment.They will take that treatment and their addiction back to Europe. Possibly making the Coca leaf as popular as the tabacco leaf,with potentially catastrophic results potentially catastrophic results.
I think the POD would be the conflict in Navarre and with the Pyrenees border of France and Spain..
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We need earlier POD if we want delay colonisation of Americas.
There is some possible ways:
- Surviving Byzantine so not need to search another route to India.
- Mongols succesfully invade and devastate Europe.
- Worse Black Death
But the Colonization could be diverted to a crusade in North Africa temporarily..and have Brazil and Newfoundland discovered first.
The Gold of the Americas stabilized the rule of Charles V..
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It's a popular supposition that the Mexica would've soon fallen anyway. I'm not totally convinced, but it's certainly plausible.
How and when this occurred could alter the details a great deal, but there are general patterns. Nahua languages will have spread further. A patchwork of small states would better resist adventurer-villains like Cortes and Pizarro (e.g. The Mayans OTL), but a divided region would be more susceptible to the sort of colonialism that united India and Indonesia.
The Andes are different. The Tahuantinsuyu was something genuinely new on its continent. Add time, and things will happen. The Colombian Andes may be annexed; fractional expansion to the east and south is possible as well. Quechuan languages will proliferate even more than they did in OTL under Spanish rule, and efforts will be made to standardize (though without writing who knows how that's go). A collective identity for the whole Andes is likely to begin taking root, and their state ideology (whatever that was) is likely to as well.
Arguably more significant will be the impact on the Mississippi and Amazon civilizations. Total disruption is still a possibility, but if diseases are introduced at a slower pace, something resembling a state might survive somewhere.
How and when this occurred could alter the details a great deal, but there are general patterns. Nahua languages will have spread further. A patchwork of small states would better resist adventurer-villains like Cortes and Pizarro (e.g. The Mayans OTL), but a divided region would be more susceptible to the sort of colonialism that united India and Indonesia.
The Andes are different. The Tahuantinsuyu was something genuinely new on its continent. Add time, and things will happen. The Colombian Andes may be annexed; fractional expansion to the east and south is possible as well. Quechuan languages will proliferate even more than they did in OTL under Spanish rule, and efforts will be made to standardize (though without writing who knows how that's go). A collective identity for the whole Andes is likely to begin taking root, and their state ideology (whatever that was) is likely to as well.
Arguably more significant will be the impact on the Mississippi and Amazon civilizations. Total disruption is still a possibility, but if diseases are introduced at a slower pace, something resembling a state might survive somewhere.
If you butterfly that then Portugal and Castille-Aragon go to war in 1512.
Castille-Aragon wanted to send a fleet to Malacca in that year by the Cape route, neither side knew that the city had already been captured by Albuquerque in 1511, and Portugal was ready to oppose them by force, OTL this was avoided because it was still believed that the Americas was part of Asia and they decided to abandoned that plan to go to Malacca by the west leaving the Cape route alone, TTL war is certain and with Ferdinand fighting in several fronts, war between the Iberian Kingdoms will be a blessing for France, Portugal was giving them informal support OTL and in this one I think it would transform into an actual alliance, and for Portugal if will also be a blessing but overtime because that way there, probably, won't be the Portuguese-French rivalry over control of the Atlantic and the African trade.
Castille-Aragon wanted to send a fleet to Malacca in that year by the Cape route, neither side knew that the city had already been captured by Albuquerque in 1511, and Portugal was ready to oppose them by force, OTL this was avoided because it was still believed that the Americas was part of Asia and they decided to abandoned that plan to go to Malacca by the west leaving the Cape route alone, TTL war is certain and with Ferdinand fighting in several fronts, war between the Iberian Kingdoms will be a blessing for France, Portugal was giving them informal support OTL and in this one I think it would transform into an actual alliance, and for Portugal if will also be a blessing but overtime because that way there, probably, won't be the Portuguese-French rivalry over control of the Atlantic and the African trade.
PhilippeO
Banned
agree, there is no need for POD so far in the past or so massive. Europe had already have Portuguese Spice Route, and even if America is found, contact could be delayed with both Empire.
But Ferdinand is second son, Charles V is first son. even if his rule a bit unstable, losing Spain to his uncle is a bit far.
and Ferdinand spend more time in Central Europe, did he even visit Spain ?
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He would need to choose between Germany/Burgundy or Castille
That would be interesting..this would be a france wank..this would be interesting if it was the french that funded columbus.
Not really a French wank per say, Portugal would demand that the French signed a treaty ensuring Manuel would become the Regent of Castille, that had been one of his ambitions, and that the French would stay out of Africa and Asia in exchange of monetary and naval support. With this I doubt that Charles V would get to ever set foot on Castille, given that many of the Grandes of Castille would probably be bribed to support Manuel and without their support Charles wound't be able to become king of Castille.
A war between Ferdinand III of Aragon and John III of Portugal would be interesting..
Coca leaf is not being made into cocaine (or god forbid crack cocaine), and I highly doubt that coca tea--a traditional form of coca usage--is much worse than caffeine. Andeans from modern Bolivia to Colombia were not coca addicts in the sense a cocaine/crack addict is despite heavy usage of coca leaves in tea, chewing, etc., so traditional usage of the coca leaf, as these Europeans would be encountering and using, is likely little worse than drinking guayusa or yerba mate, the caffeine-containing plants of Latin America. And since coca being made into cocaine is a far different process which is less of an evolution than tobacco being made into cigarettes, it would be far, far better for the world if tobacco is sidelined in that way, since cocaine would remain a marginal use of the plant. Even if people still make it into cocaine and crack, it will kill far less people than cigarette usage has, unless you somehow make cocaine fashionable in culture.
I agree that Mexico will most likely have colonisation like India/Indonesia.
But the Inca will have to deal with a major epidemic (25-40% death rates), as well as European influences which would rather favour multiple competing states in the Andes instead of one state. I suppose Quechua would spread regardless, although it's noteworthy the degree the Spanish spread Quechua in places like Ecuador which TTL would be lacking. Inca ideology IMO vaguely reminds me of Chinese or Japanese thought.
The Mississippians were already in decline because of drought, and disease as seen OTL would finish them off. I don't think more or less Europeans in the 16th/17th century would do too much either way. Although it's noteworthy that since there's no Pueblo revolt and a slower introduction of horses, the Great Plains will be horseless for a lot longer.
The Coca leaf has addictive qualities, that's why the Aztecs would put anyone under 50 who used it to death.It would become a cash crop and pirates would be after coca leafs as much as gold.
There were people messing around with chemistry in Europe,one of them might try to refine it.If there's money to be made somebody will do it.
There were people messing around with chemistry in Europe,one of them might try to refine it.If there's money to be made somebody will do it.
Cocaine wasn't invented until the 19th century, and if the traditional form of use amongst Europeans is chewing it or drinking it in tea (as they learned from Andeans), why would they do something like snorting a powder made from it since that seems pretty dirty and "heathen"-ish? Something like that would take 19th century ingenuity to create and market, comparable to, well, cigarettes.
Oh absolutely. But you could say something similar of the Roman Empire after the Antonine plagues, or of China by the midpoint of the 3 Kingdoms period. My point is that the conquest IOTL caused delegitimization and disruption orders of magnitude worse than a "mere" population collapse and political division. Here the idea of a unified Andean empire will be hard to put aside. Incan laws, concepts of kingship and government, language, customs, et cetera will color the whole side of the continent. The civilized world may be divided, but prior to unification no one would have thought of the region as being "the civilized world".
Some things would be absent, but at contact the Inca were quite a young state. It's difficult to imagine scenarios in which an additional century or more as lingua franca doesn't strengthen the imperial language greatly.
I know next to nothing of it.
What was it like? I don't suppose you could point me towards a source?
Well, that's sort of the point, no? More gradual contact suggests disease experiences not seen in OTL.
As for OTL's collapse, what do you want to bet it was the corn? (Triggered by drought, of course.) High yields create large populations, severe soil depletion requires more and more exploitation to support those populations, and the labor-intensive nature of the crop guarantees that a crisis above a certain threshold will be self-reinforcing. Corn induced sharp failures in urban centers and extended crises in less centralized regions throughout it pre-contact use. Heck, it seems to have given the Chinese some of the same trouble after they began exploiting it.
My thought is that, like most corn-induced declines, the Mississippian one would have been uneven. A lot of marginal communities with less-depleted soil would have (probably did) survive, to receive substantial numbers of refugees/migrants from the former centers. These might develop further. Meanwhile, in the old heartlands, soil would gradually begin to recover.
As I said before, it's certainly plausible to end up with the same results we saw in OTL. Indeed, that may be the most likely outcome. But TTL is, potentially, a more survivable crisis.
The Amazon is a more likely locale for a change than the Mississippi, certainly. If the circumstances are right.