The Discord That Follows

[Herr Frage]

I found this on the state of Istanbul:

"Meanwhile, the siege of Istanbul would take far longer, and by the end of it, much of the city would be in ruins, even seriously damaging the Hagia Sophia."

This indicates the siege has been ongoing as I don't think it has ever been mentioned as being broken or the city taken. After all being forced to withdraw would be a major blow to Russian morale and a great victory for the Allies.

 

[jeckl]

I found this on the state of Istanbul:

"Meanwhile, the siege of Istanbul would take far longer, and by the end of it, much of the city would be in ruins, even seriously damaging the Hagia Sophia."

This indicates the siege has been ongoing as I don't think it has ever been mentioned as being broken or the city taken. After all being forced to withdraw would be a major blow to Russian morale and a great victory for the Allies.

I assume it is like Leningrad otl. They can't take it but leaving is to great a loss.

It is hard to besiege unless you had navel superiority in order to cut the city in two, other wise it is incomplete and the Ottomans can flood it with troops.

Also it's Constantinople, not Istanbul.

I also assume it's fall would have happen during the Russian offensive after the coup.

 

[jeckl]

Soooo

Bump for end of the war.

Have not enough fathers buried their sons?

 

[jeckl]

I just realised that France is a mash up of otl Germany and Russia. Think about it; It lost the last war (that was very similar to otl WW1), and it's monarchy: Like Germany. It then had a civil war between a radical faction (who made peace) and one who wanted to continue the war: Like Russia, the result was also the same. It then rebuilt it self and started flexing it's muscles and gained some land through votes and lunched a devastating attack on the people who beat them last time: Like Germany. It also has a different and opposing ideology to it's allies: Like Russia.


Also the tl is very well researched, so bravo Silver Swimmer on this great tl.

 

[jeckl]

So I just ran the numbers and it looks like those who lived to see the rise of the German state will live to see it's fall.

By which I mean it was only 28 years old when it fell. It will be interesting to see what linger effects this has on central Europe. Will there a 'german spring' where people raised in this Germany want it back? Will it kill off German nationalism? As in "we tried that once and it didn't end well.

 

[stevep]

So I just ran the numbers and it looks like those who lived to see the rise of the German state will live to see it's fall.

By which I mean it was only 28 years old when it fell. It will be interesting to see what linger effects this has on central Europe. Will there a 'german spring' where people raised in this Germany want it back? Will it kill off German nationalism? As in "we tried that once and it didn't end well.

jeckl

Depends. I rather doubt that Germany will be dismantled completely while large scale French annexations would be unpopular with just about everybody but the French so suspect some sizeable German state will survive. Although likely to be markedly smaller than Austria, at least in the short term. [Also widespread Austrian annexations, as I think I said if not confusing TLs, would have problems for it].

Steve

 

[jeckl]

jeckl

Depends. I rather doubt that Germany will be dismantled completely while large scale French annexations would be unpopular with just about everybody but the French so suspect some sizeable German state will survive. Although likely to be markedly smaller than Austria, at least in the short term. [Also widespread Austrian annexations, as I think I said if not confusing TLs, would have problems for it].

Steve

Depends on how large.

I think France will take the Rhine Land and Austria will get much of South Germany.

 

[stevep]

Depends on how large.

I think France will take the Rhine Land and Austria will get much of South Germany.

jeckl

The problem with that is we're fairly deep into the era of nationalism. French occupation of the Rhineland will cause deep resentment throughout Germany against both the French and the Austrians, who they will also view as responsible for the loss. Similarly Austria could find any annexations in S Germany problematic given both its separation from the German national identity plus also the fact it occupied much of this area by force against pretty heavy resistance.

Not saying its impossible, just that I think any major gains are going to be expensive to hold for both powers for the foreseeable future.

Steve

 

[Herr Frage]

jeckl

The problem with that is we're fairly deep into the era of nationalism. French occupation of the Rhineland will cause deep resentment throughout Germany against both the French and the Austrians, who they will also view as responsible for the loss. Similarly Austria could find any annexations in S Germany problematic given both its separation from the German national identity plus also the fact it occupied much of this area by force against pretty heavy resistance.

Not saying its impossible, just that I think any major gains are going to be expensive to hold for both powers for the foreseeable future.

Steve

My guesses are that France will take back what it lost to Germany and settle for reparations. In exchange Austria supports them taking bites out of Italy in addition to their former territories.

Austria reunites most of Franconia with Austrian-Bavaria. They balance concerns over the additions of the these new Germans with annexations against Italy. Austria under FF turns back the clock with reviving South German Kingdoms as puppet states under members of the old Royal houses that fled after the German wars an their descendants. Some new treaty organization entitles Austria to a lot of influence in the states.

Italy descends into chaos and civil war. Natsy's under French leadership come to power save for a new Papal State protected by Austria and Catholic volunteer corps. And an understanding between Vienna and Austria under the table. Namely driving the Pope out or having him share land with an anticlerical regime is too much trouble, so the French pull back the leash on their allies. Strange, but it would be interesting.

And I would love to see a Savoyard rump state in Sardinia or Sicily, but that is likely undoable

 

[jeckl]

My guesses are that France will take back what it lost to Germany and settle for reparations. In exchange Austria supports them taking bites out of Italy in addition to their former territories.

Austria reunites most of Franconia with Austrian-Bavaria. They balance concerns over the additions of the these new Germans with annexations against Italy. Austria under FF turns back the clock with reviving South German Kingdoms as puppet states under members of the old Royal houses that fled after the German wars an their descendants. Some new treaty organization entitles Austria to a lot of influence in the states.

Italy descends into chaos and civil war. Natsy's under French leadership come to power save for a new Papal State protected by Austria and Catholic volunteer corps. And an understanding between Vienna and Austria under the table. Namely driving the Pope out or having him share land with an anticlerical regime is too much trouble, so the French pull back the leash on their allies. Strange, but it would be interesting.

And I would love to see a Savoyard rump state in Sardinia or Sicily, but that is likely undoable

So you think will go back to (mostly) like it was before the German Wars?

 

[Herr Frage]

So you think will go back to (mostly) like it was before the German Wars?

Not Quite, these new German Kingdoms would be very much Austrian puppet stares, likely with little active support from the masses. Similarly I see France having Stalin like tactics ensuring any italian Natsy sate is as compliant an ally as Catalonia.

Risky ventures, but FF and the Tiger were known for putting passion into their policies as I recall. Britain will likely support such an attempt. After all breaking German economic and military power was a major motive of war for them. An tieing the French up in an Italian quagmire keeps them occupied from causing trouble elsewhere.

Of course assuming policies play out like this there is plenty that can go wrong.

I see a rePrussification in Germany. This loss will be blamed on Germany going soft after the German Wars, failing to stop the revival of France or prevent Anschluss. The military is already gaining power at the Kaiser's expense. Whatever is left of Germany, vengeance will be its priority.

 

[jeckl]

Not Quite, these new German Kingdoms would be very much Austrian puppet stares, likely with little active support from the masses. Similarly I see France having Stalin like tactics ensuring any italian Natsy sate is as compliant an ally as Catalonia.

Risky ventures, but FF and the Tiger were known for putting passion into their policies as I recall. Britain will likely support such an attempt. After all breaking German economic and military power was a major motive of war for them. An tieing the French up in an Italian quagmire keeps them occupied from causing trouble elsewhere.

Of course assuming policies play out like this there is plenty that can go wrong.

I see a rePrussification in Germany. This loss will be blamed on Germany going soft after the German Wars, failing to stop the revival of France or prevent Anschluss. The military is already gaining power at the Kaiser's expense. Whatever is left of Germany, vengeance will be its priority.

I wonder what actions it will take?

Also bump

 

[jeckl]

Just keeping the dream alive

 

[jeckl]

Bump



Bump

 

[General Admiral]

bumpity ~ this is a really great timeline I've always had a soft spot for the Hapsburgs and austria

 

[jeckl]

So is it dead or not?

Silver has gone quiet before so there is still hope.

 

[SilverSwimmer]

So is it dead or not?

Silver has gone quiet before so there is still hope.

People of Earth. I am so sorry I havent answered. These last few months have been kind of a whirlwind and I havent been able to put a second into the TL. For now I dont think that will change, but when it does I will let everyone know. But as of today Im putting the TL on hold. I repeat: Not dead, but on hold.

So sorry to everyone who had interest in this and kept bumping it.

-Silverswimmer

 

[stevep]

People of Earth. I am so sorry I havent answered. These last few months have been kind of a whirlwind and I havent been able to put a second into the TL. For now I dont think that will change, but when it does I will let everyone know. But as of today Im putting the TL on hold. I repeat: Not dead, but on hold.

So sorry to everyone who had interest in this and kept bumping it.

-Silverswimmer

SilverSwimmer

Thanks for letting us know. Hopefully things while chaotic aren't too bad and things settle down soon. I've got it subscribed so no problem for me as will pick it up when you resume.

Best of luck.

Steve

 

[jeckl]

Ok thanks Silver


ps. "People of Earth" are you an alien? ha

 

[SilverSwimmer]

Here, at the End​

While the remnants of the German High Command met with the Allies in Potsdam, which had become a shell of its former self, both the war and its aftershocks raged on elsewhere. But the largest focus of the Allies was to push Russia, the sole Great Power left defying them, to the table. No member of the Alliance had any illusions of forcing the Bear into an unconditional surrender like Germany, nor did any power wish to take on the role of occupier of the vast wilderness of the Russian steppes. But if there was to be peace, the Russian Empire needed to have its power checked.

And so far, the Jupiter offensives were working well. The Japanese were turning their attention north towards Harbin, a far loftier goal than Mukden was. In Persia, Commonwealth troops were beginning to break the deadlock after the Battle of Ilam and Hakkari, advancing north towards the borders of the Russian Empire.

Further north, Turkish forces, under the watchful eye of their British allies, advanced against the Russians near Erzurum, leading to an Allied victory, but with heavy Turkish losses. While the survival of the Turks was due to the intervention of the British Empire, the seeds of contempt were sown in the plateaus of Anatolia, as Turkish soldiers believed that the British saw them as simple cannon-fodder (which was not entirely false). This disdain would only grow as the war came to an end.

Operation Vulcan was also enjoying success due to the collapse of much of the Iranian army, who sense which way the wind was blowing. Hoping to avoid the inevitable post-war reprisals, many simply abandoned their posts in the middle of the night, traveling many miles back to their homes. It is estimated many did not make it back, due to overexposure in the unforgiving Persian landscape. However, this left immense holes in the lines that the Russians simply could not gap. Eventually realizing this, the Commonwealth pushed forward in the early months of 1923, converging on the birthplace of the Revolution, Tehran in late May.

While this was going on, the British were also attempting a different kind offensive. The government had long been in contact with that of the Greeks, who had been playing a sitting on the fence since the war had began four years prior. They looked at both their rivals hungrily, the Ottomans, part of the Allied powers had territory the Greeks wanted, as did the Bulgarians, who were allied with the Central Pact. In the last few months, it finally seemed the Greeks were willing to play ball with the British, mostly because of their recent successes on the battlefield, and the fact that Lord Grey had come to Athens with an offer Constantine I couldn’t refuse. In exchange for an immediate attack on the Bulgarian border, Greece would receive Northern Epirus from the Turks, and in the post-war peace treaty, the territory of Bulgarian Thrace, to cut off Bulgaria from the Aegean. In this decision, Constantine would preside over a great expansion of the Greek people. On February 5th, four days after the German ceasefire, Greece declared war of the Central Pact, and invaded Bulgaria.

While the Greeks were aided by the Bulgarians focus on the north of their country and the ongoing destruction of the Golden Horn, the offensive was marred by inexperience and disorganization. Directed at surrounding the major port city of Solun, which in Greek was pronounced Salonica, the Greek Army was soon joined by British ships who had been blockading the Aegean against Russian and Bulgarian merchants vessels. But even with shore support, high casualty rates were common on the unforgiving terrain. The Greeks succeeded in hoisting the flag over the city, but the real victory was forcing Bulgarian divisions currently bombarding Istanbul to redirect their forces towards Thrace.

This was exactly what the British needed. Istanbul was the last card Russia could play in the war. While not in Russian hands, those hands were wrapped around Istanbul’s throat at the moment, and tens of thousands had died from starvation and enemy fire. While Russian troops were at the frontlines, Bulgarian troops had the pleasure of guarding the coast on the flank of the siege. Their numbers were now seriously depleted, and the British chose to go forward with Operation Dynamo, in June of 1923. As the Greeks kept the Bulgarians at bay in Thrace, The British landed a sizeable force at Silivri, on the Sea of Marmara with light resistance. Initially just British marines, it grew to a more sizeable force of over 80,000 troops from both the Ottoman and British armies over the course of the next week. The joint force pushed north, sweeping aside the opposition until finally slowing down when meeting the Russian units moved from the front lines.

British artillery fire on Russian positions, June 1923​

The Russian commander, Vladimir Sakharov, was distraught. If he did not fall back, his rearguard would be overrun, leaving him at the mercy of the British naval blockade. and yet Constantinople was so close! He had an entire Army Group in his command. They had been bombarding Istanbul for years now, and if he was pushed back there was no way he would regain this position again. And if he succeeded in taking the city, Russia may be able to come out of this fight with something to gain.

And so began Russia’s last stand, led by a General who, in the words of later Russian officials, “a General so misguided, even his horse was more fit for command.”On July 11th, 1923, the Russian front guard attacked Turkish lines that had been basically under construction since 1921. While that was occurring, the British salient into the rearguard found itself under tremendous pressure from elements of Sakhorov’s main Army Group. It was Sakharov’s plan to overrun the European side of Istanbul, while simultaneously crushing the British/Ottoman landings. This was not happening for two reasons. One was the fact that within days of the Russian human wave attacks on Turkish fortifications, many just simply refused to attack. Some officers were found shot, others joined the soldiers ranks. Near Silivri, the action was better, but a constant stream of reinforcements meant that eventually the numerically superior Russian forces were now only slightly numerically superior, but also worn out and tired. By August, Sakhorov’s Army was a paper tiger, and he ordered a full retreat north.

Russian soldiers throw themselves at Turkish positions, July 1923​

The news of the defeat at the gates of Istanbul was the final nail. In Russia, the new Czar, Cyril I, was tired of war. It was the war of his father, and he no longer wanted to be blamed for its failures by the increasingly more influential Duma. And there were many failures. French forces were mopping up Germany and advancing on Poland. Galicia was lost. Tehran had fallen and the Persians were beginning their roundup of Iranian sympathizers. The only real success was the Ottoman fall from grace, but that was due more because of British intervention than Russian successes on the battlefield, not to mention Russia would see none of the spoils. Better to live to fight another day. And so Russia sued for peace of August 14th, 1923, followed swiftly by the remaining powers of Bulgaria and Romania. The war had lasted for 4 years, 3 months, and 21 days.

But in many places, it was not the end. There was still discord to follow.