The details of a Palestine partition plan in a no/much smaller Holocaust scenario?

CaliGuy

Banned
Some people here have previously made strong arguments that a Jewish state would have still been created in Palestine even either without a Holocaust or with a much smaller Holocaust. Thus, my question here is this:

What exactly would a Palestine partition have looked like in either a no-Holocaust scenario or in a much-smaller-Holocaust scenario? (For the record, the former can be achieved by killing Adolf Hitler in 1923--thus very likely completely butterflying away Nazi Germany--whereas the latter can be achieved by having France defend the Ardennes more in 1940 and thus having the Manstein Plan fail.)

Basically, I am curious about this since much more surviving Jews in Europe as well as the lack of Jewish worldview changes that occurred as a result of our TL's Holocaust could impact migration flows into Palestine, et cetera--thus resulting in somewhat different details of the Palestine partition in comparison to our TL.

Anyway, any thoughts on this?
 

CaliGuy

Banned
For the record, here is a map of Israel's proposed 1947 borders and actual 1949-1967 borders in our TL:

https://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/wp-...-Partition-Plan-1949-Armistice-Comparison.png

1947-UN-Partition-Plan-1949-Armistice-Comparison.png
 
Why this? This map makes no sense
Without the holocaust (or a smaller one), as postulated by the OP, their will be less Jews that emmigrated in Palestine and only the coastal regions were a majority of them lived could be taken to form Israel
 
Without the holocaust (or a smaller one), as postulated by the OP, their will be less Jews that emmigrated in Palestine and only the coastal regions were a majority of them lived could be taken to form Israel
The percent will be smaller ,but in actual numbers their will be more emigrants. Also,your map doesn't include alot of areas full of Jewish settlements and is almost totally lack water.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Why should ?
Couldn't you imagine that if less jews settled the region, the Palestinian could either win or do better against the jewish in the arab-israeli war, with a rump Israel supported by the west ?
How exactly do you make the eastern Galilee less attractive for Jews to settle in, though?
 
Having the Palestinians defeat Israel in a war is very hard, though.
In an alternate reality (the one you postulated) where less jews emmigrate there because of either no holocaust or lesser holocaust (less reason for them to leave their home country), its way more possible...
 

CaliGuy

Banned
In an alternate reality (the one you postulated) where less jews emmigrate there because of either no holocaust or lesser holocaust (less reason for them to leave their home country), its way more possible...
With no Holocaust? Maybe.

With a much smaller Holocaust? I doubt it; after all, the early Nazi years will still produce a lot of Jewish immigration to Palestine.
 
Your postulate:

Some people here have previously made strong arguments that a Jewish state would have still been created in Palestine even either without a Holocaust or with a much smaller Holocaust. Thus, my question here is this:

What exactly would a Palestine partition have looked like in either a no-Holocaust scenario or in a much-smaller-Holocaust scenario? (For the record, the former can be achieved by killing Adolf Hitler in 1923--thus very likely completely butterflying away Nazi Germany--whereas the latter can be achieved by having France defend the Ardennes more in 1940 and thus having the Manstein Plan fail.)

Basically, I am curious about this since much more surviving Jews in Europe as well as the lack of Jewish worldview changes that occurred as a result of our TL's Holocaust could impact migration flows into Palestine, et cetera--thus resulting in somewhat different details of the Palestine partition in comparison to our TL.

Anyway, any thoughts on this?

It was my thought...
And then you come with:

With no Holocaust? Maybe.

With a much smaller Holocaust? I doubt it; after all, the early Nazi years will still produce a lot of Jewish immigration to Palestine.

I dont understand you at all...
 
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CaliGuy

Banned
Your postulate:



It was my thought...
And then you come with:



I dont understand you at all...
My point here is that a smaller Holocaust (such as by having no Fall of France in 1940) still means that the Nazis are in power in Germany until at least 1940--which in turn means that the large wave of Jewish immigration to Palestine between 1933 and 1939 still occurs and in turn also means that the Great Arab Revolt of 1936-1939 also still occurs and gets crushed in turn--thus resulting in Palestinian military power being destroyed by the British (just like in our TL).
 
That would be more realistic, Yes.

Also, though, how much will the new state of Israel expand in this TL?
Will it though ?
If it's seen as a state under siege (much more than OTL), it could prevent more immigration.

But if they want, it would be toward Jerusalem.
 
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