The Desert Sands- an alternate history from the 7th century AD

[TheSlovakPatriot]

African Romance spoken around Carthage is called Ifriqian in this timeline and has (or is supposed to have) a large Punic substratum. On the other hand, Moritanian has a Berber substratum.


Part 12: The heart of Asia , along the Great Silk Road
What was going on in Central Asia? Well after the fall of Sassanid Persia and the Hephtalites (who ruled Central Asia until 670s), various small principalities emerged at the southern coast of the Caspian Sea. The Karen dynasty assumed control of the the former satrapy of Dihistan and Margiana (Merv), but also Abarshahr and Khorasan., while most of southeastern Iran remained ruled by the Mihran dynasty.
Central Asia was divided into two realms, Bactria/Tokharistan at the upper Oxus Basin (Tajikistan and adjacent areas of Afghanistan) and Sogdia (central Uzbekistan).
Sistan was also governed by the Mihran dynasty, while Afghanistan was balkanised.

Transoxiana was increasingly Turkified, with a Sogdian and Bactrian languages surviving. Farghana was a major urban center by this time.The Bactrian and Sogdian languages have reached a high literal standard. These areas are cosmopolitan with merchants bringing new ideas, with people and ideas originating from China to Rhomania. The area does not have a strong religious identity, but Bactria is more Zoroastrian-Manichean while Sogdia is more Nestorian-Buddhist but still with substantial Manichean influence.

Central Asia is now becoming the last hotbed for Manicheism. (However I am uncertain of the long term viability of a Manichean-based society since Manicheism believes that sexuality and earthly goods are bad, hence slow population growth implying the realm could get easier overwhelmed by more dynamic tribes)

The area around Kabul was ruled by the so-called Kabul Shahis - Turkic dynasty of Hindu religion, while the south was ruled by the Zunbil dynasty.

The primary religion in the Tarim Basin and and and Bactria remained Manicheism, while Sogdia was Zoroastrian. Afghanistan wand Pakistan were in the Hindu sphere. The Church of the east had some successes in converting the Turkic peoples, but Central Asia remained until 900s a mishmash of Nestorianism, Manicheism, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism and Tengrism.

The Mihran dynasty, controlling the eastern half of Iran and also Sistan and Balochistan is considered to be the true successor of Sassanid Persia. The atention of the Mihran dynasty in the 7th century is to reclaim the lands of the former Sassanid empire.

So basically a large empire, the Mihranids, and a handful of kingdoms around it. In the following century (8th century) the Mihranids would have consolidated their positions and start reclaiming former Iranian lands to their west and east

Beneath is map taken from CK2. It shows the distribution of religions at the time of Charlemagne.
(roughly)

 

[Arkenfolm]

View attachment 276265 Volubilis remains a center of one of the subdivisions of Moritania. (Provincial capital).
The Moritanian language is part of the southern Romance languages, along with Ifriqian and Sardinian. Mritanian and Ifriqian are also known as Berbero-Romance languages.


(I am not a linguist studying Romance so this will be very amateurish:
The sentence "She always closes the window before she dines"

• Latin:(Ea) semper antequam cenat fenestram claudit.
• Sardinian: Issa serrat sempri a ventana innantis de cenài
• Betican (Mozarabic):Ella cloudet sempre la fainestra abante da cenare.
• Sicilian: Idda chiui sempri la finestra prima di pistiari
• Ifriqian: Iya serra simmpri a wentana abate d cenar
• Moritanian: Eya klodet semre la finisra ifante d shenai

Thanks! I'm a tad too obsessed with anything pre-Islamic North Africa.

I've got "Izha kradet shëfri sa fësdra abäti de chimat" for that sentence my own Mauretanian Romance (umlauts marking nasalised vowels), and "Ya kradet senbri sa vinstra abanta de chinath" in my Carthaginian Romance. It's a work in progress, since I'm also not a linguist, and I think I'm underestimating the amount of Punic loanwords (probably would be like Romanian and Slavic loanwords). So I look at Berber languages, Latin loan words in Berber languages, and how African Vulgar Latin looked (accusative and nominative case mostly merged, in general lots of Punic influence in the prepositions like how they used "ad" and "pro" for instance). It's very interesting to see someone else's version of hypothetical African Romance languages.

There's also how African Romance languages would have been a massively diverse language family. I bet Mauretanian African Romance would be as separate from Carthaginian African Romance as Sicilian is from Piedmontese.

For Manicheanism, it lasted pretty long in China despite persecution basically everywhere. And the Gnostic Mandaeans are around to this day. And speaking of Central Asia, what do you have as the fate of the Tocharians and the Tarim Basin?

 

[TheSlovakPatriot]

I've got "Izha kradet shëfri sa fësdra abäti de chimat" for that sentence my own Mauretanian Romance (umlauts marking nasalised vowels), and "Ya kradet senbri sa vinstra abanta de chinath" in my Carthaginian Romance. It's a work in progress, since I'm also not a linguist, and I think I'm underestimating the amount of Punic loanwords (probably would be like Romanian and Slavic loanwords). So I look at Berber languages, Latin loan words in Berber languages, and how African Vulgar Latin looked (accusative and nominative case mostly merged, in general lots of Punic influence in the prepositions like how they used "ad" and "pro" for instance). It's very interesting to see someone else's version of hypothetical African Romance languages.

There's also how African Romance languages would have been a massively diverse language family. I bet Mauretanian African Romance would be as separate from Carthaginian African Romance as Sicilian is from Piedmontese.

Wow your versiono of African Romance seems more realistic than mine . I am adopting your African Romance if thats ok

 

[TheSlovakPatriot]

Part 13: Last of the Heraclians and anarchy in Constantinople
When Justinian II. reclaimed his throne in 705, he put his focus to defeat the Bulgartiasns once and forever and to restore the borders back to the Danube. Unfortunately he had almost no success and most of the Balkans remained held by this Turko-Slavic realm.
A rebellion against Justinian broke out in 711 , with the help of the Monothelites, and Chersonians.Philippikos ascended the throne He supported deposing the current Orthodx patriarch and changing him for a Monothelite. Also he supported the Maronite patriarch in Antioch. However, his aims were soon put down when he was depúosed in 713.
The new Emperor Anastasius II. was ready to make profit of the situation in Syria. H led his forces to reclaim what they could- the first target was Touma who held the Orontes valley and Aleppo. At the Battle of Maharda led to the death of Touma. The Rhomaic army managed to destroy the Syrian infrastructure , but not to restore order.
When in 715 a rebellion broke out aghain and Theodosius III became the rhomaic Emperor, many of the Syrian forces were pulled of Syria. Egypt made quick advantage of chaos among thje Rhomaics- in a brief campaign, Egypt conquerred Judea and Samaria as well as Galilee. In 716 Rhomaics were forced to recognize this situation.

The Syrian troops led by Leo III. Isaurian revolted and made him emperor. Leo became emperor in 717 and died in 741. His efforts were concentrated on reclaiming the rest of Syria. In the first five years of his reign, he managed to conquer Commagene, and the rest of Syria under Addai II.

Leo proceeded to consolidate its administration, which in the previous years of anarchy had become completely disorganized. In 718 he suppressed a rebellion in Sicily and in 719 did the same on behalf of the deposed Emperor Anastasios II. eo secured the Empire's frontiers by inviting [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavs']Slavic settlers into the depopulated districts and by restoring the army to efficiency[/URL]
He was allied with Georgia and the Khazars.
However the most controversial was his pubnlic ban of veneration of icons. This led to many rebellions. He also wanted to baptized all the Jews and persecution of Montanists. This led to an exodus of Jews into the Holy Land, now under Egyptian control.

 

[TheSlovakPatriot]

S here is a linguistic map from the year 750 AD

(edited from The Aprticity forum)

 

[TheSlovakPatriot]

Regarding Tocharians: I guess they could have survived in the Turfan ...The Sakas would be in the western and southjwestern parts of the Tarim basin.
The uyghurs are I guess onloy in Dzungaria at this time.
Also Khwarezm is still Iranian, but with large Turkic influx.

Onlyx Kazakhstan is Turkic at this time, as well as the Pontic-Caspian steppe.

 

[Reene]

I think people severely under-estimate the influence Persia exerted over Arabs in pre-islamic period, both Cultural and otherwise. Arabs wellbeing depended on Trade, and that was coming from east, from Persia, and unless Byzantines beat down Persia into bloody pulp the Arabs will not be Christian. The closest Christian state that can actually reach Arabia was Abessynia, and it attacked Arabs on several ocassions, creating great antagonism. The Byzantines, while a great Empire was separated from Arabs via huge deserts. Persia on the other hand just had to cross the Persian gulf to supply its troops.

 

[TheSlovakPatriot]

Part 14: The restoration of Persia
Mihranid kings:

1. Mihran Bahram-i -Chudim (632-345)
   
2. Siyavakhsh (645-671)
3. Bahram (671-698)
4. Vardan I. Mihran (698-721)
5. Perozes (722-)

Vardan I. Mihran was the fourth ruler of Mihranid Persia and wished to restore the Empire at least to the extent it had during the reign of the Sassanids.He was a skilled and passionate hunter. He cared little about the ancient Persian protocol. Although his family originated in Rayy, his father moved the capital to Kerman in Carmania. Although not a very religous man, Vardan wish to unite all Iranian lands under one banner, be it the will of Ahura Mazda. His first goal was to eliminate his largest competitors, the karen dynasty, based in Gurgan (Hyrcania), who vassalised all the principalities at the southern Capsian coast. Also of great importance were the lands of Margiana, which rebelled the Turkic nomads at regular basis.

In 700 Vardan Mihran sent the Karenids an ultimatum:
" To my dear and honorable satrap of Gorgan, belonging to befamed House of Karen.
By the will of Ahura Mazda I have been chosen to fulfill his wish on Earth and in Iran, to unite the lands rightfully belonging to the Eranshahr from the times of the Achaemenids. Now this leadership has pssed upon my family. Now I ask you patiently as Persian asks a Persian: will you accept the new Shahanshah as such, or you want to lift the sword against your brother of Iranian blood? It is your free choice, whether you want to be a friend and most beloved satrap, or my greatest rival and enemy. Peace be with. May y&ou choose wisely, for Hyrcania rightfully belongs to the Eranshah, and it will be so.

Yours thruthfully
Shahranshah of Eran,
Vardan I."

The Karenid king was enraged after receiving such a message. He declined the conditionbs and sent a letter to Vardan full of phrases, politelly trying to convince Vardan thast he should not try to expand his realm. The letter was actually a whole manuscript, maybe as long as the gospel of St. John, and after listenning for half an hour , King Vardan said " Enough of this nothingness. It is not even worth the papyrus and ink it was written on."
He gatherred his fgorces and marched nothwards. After crossing the vast expanses of the Iranian plateau, he arrived at the borders of the Karenid realm.
Once agin he, offered them surrender with retaining their position and a small yearly tribute, but again they declined. So he marched with his full force to the city of Gorgan. Many of the lesser pricnes and Dehqan accepted ther offer of Vardan , and after long negotiations , the Karenids surrendered. One of their daughters was to marry king Vardanś son, Peroz.

Having conquerred Hyrcania in 701, Vardan now put his sight to the northeast, trying to reconquer asmuch area along the Great Silk Road as he could. (knowing that the lands to the west are not in danger, as the rhomaics have and will have plenty of problems, and expanding westwards will only cause their hostility.

His next focus were the satrapies of Margiana,Harev, Sogdia and Bactria, which he all sought to conquer. Margiana accepted Mihrans rule without fight, as the marzpan of Margiana needed better defenses against the Turks, Harev (Herat)s forces were defeated in one decisive battle. Ther Sogdians and Bactrians however were not willing to submit. Vardan however attacked Bactria with his full force in 710, and besieged the city of Balkh. He met fierce resistance, butt in 712 Bactria submitted. Many Bactrians fled to neighbouring Sogdiana, where they supported the anti-Mihranid party. By this time Sogdia also took control of Chorasmia äat the lower reaches of the Oxus).
After conquerring Bactria, Mihran also took control of Paradan (Balochistan) and built a large complex of roads, with trees planted on both sides of the roads sop that journey acroos the realm is more confortable. Each road had stations at a regular basis, provinding horses, shelter and food for travellers. This was very important for communication and imperial messengers, who pretty much held the realm together. Vardan moved the capital to Harev (Herat) in 718, more central position in the realm. His last campaign was against the Zunbils in Zabulistan.
His heir, Perozes became Shahanshah in 722. He turned his attention westwards, and subdued Media (in 724), and Adarbaidagan (in 727). These areas had a substantial Zrvanite population, who were in contrast with mainly Mazdan/Zoroastrian population of Vardanś realm.

The realm had a diverse population. Various languages were spoken:

• Middle Persian, the official language and the language of Persia proper.
• Parthian, the languzage of Khorasan and Harev. Reintroduced during the reign of Vardam as the court language.
• Adhari, the language of Adarbaidagan.
• Median is now no longer a written language , but a vernacular around Ectabana, gradually being Persianised.
• Bactrian was spoken in Bactria. Developped into literary language.
  
• Sistani and Balochi are spoken in their respective areas
• Gilaki, Mazandarani and other Caspian languages, spoken as vernaculars in their respective area.
• Aramaic spoken by a minority in Ormuzd
• Pashtun in Zabulistan.

 

[TheSlovakPatriot]

I think people severely under-estimate the influence Persia exerted over Arabs in pre-islamic period, both Cultural and otherwise. Arabs wellbeing depended on Trade, and that was coming from east, from Persia, and unless Byzantines beat down Persia into bloody pulp the Arabs will not be Christian. The closest Christian state that can actually reach Arabia was Abessynia, and it attacked Arabs on several ocassions, creating great antagonism. The Byzantines, while a great Empire was separated from Arabs via huge deserts. Persia on the other hand just had to cross the Persian gulf to supply its troops.

I agree Arabs were not under Byzantine/Rhomaic influence. However, they were more likely to be influenced by whoever was in Mesoipotamia. This whoever is Mersopotamia were actually Nestorian (Church of the East) Christians, who established mission along the Persianb Gulf. They actually had two dioceses there. Zorastrianism was not actually popular in the arab peninsula, with probably one clan believing it. I guess Persians can convince Mazun/ Oman to become Zoroastrian, but Bahrain, Qatar and the reggion was already Nestorian.
The Sassanids actually supported Jews who were in Arabia, and most notably in Yemen and northern Hejaz.

 

[TheSlovakPatriot]

Part 15:One God at least a dozen of interpretations
So let us take a look at the religious composition by this time.

• Christianity- is the major religion in Europe
  • Catholicism is the state religion of Visigothic kigdom, Vasconia, Franksih kingdom, Lombard Italy (only recently, before they used to be Arians), Moritania, Brittany, and it was being introduced to the Croats. Also Catholicism was found in Anglo-Saxon England. A significant community is also found in Ifriqia. Also spread in theislands of the West Mediterranena.
    
  • Orthodoxy was predominant in the Rhomaic Empire,by the Crimean Goths, Georgians and was being introduced to the Serbs and Bulgarians. Also a few pockets remain in Egypt and Italy.
  • Miaphysitism was present in Egypt, Cyrenaica, interior of Syria, Armenia, Caucasian Albania (Agvank). The southern branch extended up the Nile through Nubia as far Aksum, and also contained the city of Najran in Arabia. The Khazars seem to be about to convert to Syriac Christianity.
    
  • Nestorianism was present in Mesopotamia, Maishan, Khuzestan, in the eastern coast of Arabia, in Socotra, in Kerala, and in various cities along the Great Silk Road, most notably Harev (Herat), Merv and Sogdia. A Chrisitan community is also attested in China and Maldives.
  • Donatism is present in the Maghreb, where it is under the authority of a Patriarch in Carthage.
  • Arianism is an almost eradicated faith, surving in a few isolated pockets in Hispania, and itly, but is expected to die out soon.
  • Monotheletism ,alos known as Maronitism is found in Lebanon and Tartous region.
    
  • Ebionitism is found in Nabatea and the Decapolis.
    
  • Celtic Christianity is found in Wales, Ireland and Scotland
  • The Christian Patriarchates are as follows:
    • Rome (Catholic)
    • Constantinople (Orthodox)
    • Alexandria (disputed, Miaphysite and Orthodox. The Coptic succession is dominant)
    • Antioch (Disputed, Miaphysite and Maronite. Miaphysite dominant, recognized by Orthodox)
    • Jerusalem (Orthodox and Armenian, but Ebionite claimants)
    • outside the Pentarchy are also :
      • Aquilea (Catholic, but succession disputed)
      • Carthage (Donatist. Catholic claimant of Archbishop of Carthage)
      • Armenia (Miaphysite)
      • Seleucia-Ctesiphon (Church of the East)
  • Liturgical Rites:
    • Western
      
      • Latin (Roman)- most of catholic world if not otherwise
        
      • Ambrosian Milan , Lombardy and Piedmont
      • Hispanic Rite (or Visigothic- used in Iberian peninsula and Moritania)
      • African Rite (Ifriqia and Altava)
      • Gallican Rite (Frankish empire, partly)
      • Celticv Rite (British isles)
    • Eastern
      • Antiochian ( Oriens diocese of the Roman Empire.
      • East Syrian (Church of the East)
      • Armenian Rite (Armenia and Caucasian Albania)
      • Greek Rite (Orthodx area if not stated otherwise.. main exception: Cilica nad Syria are Antiochian as well as Cyprus, while Alexandria has Alexandrian rite)
      • Alexandrian Rite ( Egypt, Nubia, Aksum and Najran)
• Judaism maintains its position. Its main areas are the Holy Land, Nabatea, Hejaz, Yemen, but important Jewish communities are also present in Alexandria, Betica, Ifriqia, Sicily and southern Italy, and the Rhineland.
• The pagans remained in most Batlic Europe.
• Zoroastrianism remains the dominant faith of the iranian plateau, making inroads into Oman /Mazun.
  • Zurvanite interpretation of Zoroastrism is found in the western parts äMedia, Adarbaidagan)
• A substantiatal Manichean population is present in western Tarim Basin, then in Dzungaria, and Sogdia. Also present in Khuzestan
  
• Mandeans are present in northern Khuzestan.
• Remants of Gnostics may be found in Mesopotmia

 

[Reene]

I agree Arabs were not under Byzantine/Rhomaic influence. However, they were more likely to be influenced by whoever was in Mesoipotamia. This whoever is Mersopotamia were actually Nestorian (Church of the East) Christians, who established mission along the Persianb Gulf. They actually had two dioceses there. Zorastrianism was not actually popular in the arab peninsula, with probably one clan believing it. I guess Persians can convince Mazun/ Oman to become Zoroastrian, but Bahrain, Qatar and the reggion was already Nestorian.
The Sassanids actually supported Jews who were in Arabia, and most notably in Yemen and northern Hejaz.

Arabs were still rabidly pagan in the peninsula, and wouldnt convert for a long while due to the natural isolation of the area up until X. century by my guess.
The difference however is that despite having almost no presence in Arabia, except southern parts, Persia influenced Arabs greatly, culturally and otherwise. If the abandonment of Arab paganism was natural occurence, it would go via Zoroastrianism, since it shares more similarities with Paganism of the arabs.
Also, there is the issue of convenience and opportunity. Becoming Christian would bring them closer to Byzantines, but what could that offer them, except to antagonize Persians?
If Arabs were attacked, would Byzantines treck across deserts to aid them?
The Persians held the trade on which they depended. The Persians could also promise them Byzantine lands that neighbored the Arabian peninsula. Syria for Arabs was literally heaven on Earth at the time and I dont see Byzantines giving it to them. Egypt was also a fat and promising target for Arabs who until Islamic expansion relied on Raids rather than outright conquest. Mountainous Persia is not conductive to such tactics.

 

[TheSlovakPatriot]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christians_in_the_Persian_Gulf:

By the 5th century, Beth Qatraye was a major centre for Nestorian Christianity, which had come to dominate the southern shores of the Persian Gulf.[4][17] As a sect, the Nestorians were often persecuted as heretics by the Byzantine Empire, but eastern Arabia was outside the Empire's control offering some safety.[4]

The dioceses of Beth Qatraye did not form an ecclesiastical province, except for a short period during the mid-to-late seventh century.[4] They were instead subject to the Metropolitan of Fars. In the late seventh century, Beth Qatraye rebelled against the authority of Fars. In an effort to reconcile the bishops of Qatraye, Giwargis I held a synod at Dayrin (Tarout Island) in 676.[18]

In the seventh and eighth centuries, an important literary culture emerged in Beth Qatraye. Several notable Nestorian writers originating from Beth Qatraye are ascribed to this period, including Isaac of Nineveh, Dadisho Qatraya, Gabriel of Qatar and Ahob of Qatar.[19] A number of archaeological sites are also dated to this time-frame.[14]

There is some ambiguity pertaining to the language used in Beth Qatraye.[20] Written text contained both Persian and Semitic words. While some of the Semitic words are purportedly Arabic, the general morphology and phonetics bear more resemblance to Aramaic.[21][22] German orientalist Anton Schall categorized the language as 'Southeastern Aramaic'.[21][23]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_pre-Islamic_Arabia

Some Arabs in northeast of the peninsula converted to Zoroastrianism and several Zoroastrian temples were constructed in Najd. Some of the members from the tribe of Banu Tamim had converted to the religion. There is also evidence of existence of Manichaeism in Arabia as several early sources indicate a presence of "zandaqas" in Mecca, although the term could also be interpreted as referring to Mazdakism. There is evidence for the circulation of Iranian religious ideas in the form of Persian loan words in Quran such as firdaws (paradise).[122][123] Zorastrianism was introduced in the Eastern Arabia including modern-day Bahrain during the rule of Persian empires in the region starting from 250 B.C. The religion was mainly practiced in Bahrain by Persian settlers. Zorastrianism was also practiced in the Persian-ruled area of modern-day Oman. The religion also existed in Persian-ruled area of modern Yemen. The descendants of Abna, the Persian conquerors of Yemen were followers of Zorastrianism

The main areas of Christian influence in Arabia were on the north eastern and north western borders and in what was to become Yemen in the south.[106] The north west was under the influence of Christian missionary activity from the Roman Empire where the Ghassanids, a client kingdom of the Romans, were converted to Christianity.[107] In the south, particularly at Najran, a centre of Christianity developed as a result of the influence of the Christian Kingdom of Axum based on the other side of the Red Sea in Ethiopia.[106] Both the Ghassanids and the Christians in the south adopted Monophysitism.[106]



Jubail Church in eastern Saudi Arabia. The 4th century remains are thought to be one of the oldest surviving church buildings in the world.
The third area of Christian influence was on the north eastern borders where the Lakhmids, a client tribe of the Sassanians, adopted Nestorianism, being the form of Christianity having the most influence in the Sassanian Empire.[106] As the Persian Gulf region of Arabia increasingly fell under the influence of the Sasanians from the early third century, many of the inhabitants were exposed to Christianity following the eastward dispersal of the religion by Mesopotamian Christians.[108] However, it was not until the fourth century that Christianity gained popularity in the region with the establishment of monasteries and a diocesan structure.[109] In 1986, the remains of a church thought to date to the 4th century were discovered in Jubail in eastern Saudi Arabia.[110]

Beth Qatraye which translates "region of the Qataris" in Syriac was the Christian name used for the region encompassing north-eastern Arabia.[111][112] It included Bahrain, Tarout Island, Al-Khatt, Al-Hasa, and Qatar.[113] Oman and the United Arab Emirates comprised the diocese known as Beth Mazunaye. The name was derived from 'Mazun', the Persian name for Oman and the United Arab Emirates. Sohar was the central city of the diocese.[111][114]

In Nejd, in the centre of the peninsula, there is evidence of members of two tribes, Kindah and Taghlib, converting to Christianity in the 6th century. However, in the Hejaz in the west, whilst there is evidence of the presence of Christianity, it is not thought to have been significant amongst the indigenous population of the area.[106]

 

[Arkenfolm]

Arabia really was a religious hodgepodge. No wonder where Islam came from there. A Christian Nejd seems intriguing--I wonder if the region would still have as many religious fundamentalists (Nejd is the birthplace of the Wahhabis, after all) if they were Christian instead of Muslim?

Wow your versiono of African Romance seems more realistic than mine . I am adopting your African Romance if thats ok

Thanks! Would you want to use it for place names/names of people? Because I have a decent-sized list of North African place names plus a name list for both the African Romance languages (e.g. Carthage = Kartazhinu/Kattazhimu, Tingis = Tinzha/Tëzha).

 

[TheSlovakPatriot]

[QUOTE"metalinvader665, post: 12473619, member: 34977"]Arabia really was a religious hodgepodge. No wonder where Islam came from there. A Christian Nejd seems intriguing--I wonder if the region would still have as many religious fundamentalists (Nejd is the birthplace of the Wahhabis, after all) if they were Christian instead of Muslim?



Thanks! Would you want to use it for place names/names of people? Because I have a decent-sized list of North African place names plus a name list for both the African Romance languages (e.g. Carthage = Kartazhinu/Kattazhimu, Tingis = Tinzha/Tëzha).[/QUOTE]
That would be really helpful... it would be quite useful.

Regarding Najd... I think yeah it would be a hotbed for religious radicals ... possibly because of the harsh climate... dump the remaining Ebionites there or let it remain pagan? I can't really imagine a Zoroastrian Najd bit maybe Manichean Najd would do... with Manichean terrorists blowing up the WTC 11.9. 2001 as fight against the servants of Ahriman or Ashaklun (the Manichean evil beings) *cough cough AlQaida*

I really dunno who will be in Najd but certainly whoever will be there the religion will be interpreted in a more radicla way

 

[TheSlovakPatriot]

It depends if Najd was more tied with Hejaz or the Persian Gulf at the time..

 

[Arkenfolm]

Here's some of the place names I've noted. Carthage-area African Romance for everything but Mauretania Tingitana/Altava area. I'll post them here in case anyone else is interested in African Romance stuff at some point. Also, unless the city doesn't exist anymore, I'm posting the modern Arabic name.

Spoiler

Places
Africa - Afrika
Vizachena - Byzacena
Zengitana - Zeugitana
Djerba - Mensha

Carthage - Kartazhinu
Annaba - Imbona
Cherchell - Kasalia
Tripoli - Triboli
Benghazi - Esbridi
Constantine - Kustantinu (or Chirtha)
Thysdrus - Thistru
Sfax - Thabra
Sétif - Stivi
Leptis Magna - Libka
Sousse - Adrumitu
Lambaesis - Lanvasi
Mostaganem - Murstazha
Algiers - Konshu
Gabès - Kabis
Médéa - Ammidash
Bizerte - Zhartu
Sabratha - Sabratha
Jendouba - Vullizha
Tataouine - Tathuin
Sufetula - Isvetula
Syrte - Sirtha
Houmt el Souk - Zhirba
Utica - Uthika
Tébessa - Thivesta

Mauretania - Maretaÿa ("ÿ" is roughly equal to Spanish "ñ")
Canary Islands - Kanaryas

Casablanca - Äva (or Kasabräka)
Volubilis - Warbiri
Altava - Artawa
Tangier - Tëzha
Tlemcen - Fomara
Salé - Sala
Oran - Kronya
Formanu - Arzew
Mers El Kebir - Foddivinu
Moroccan Basra - Dremuras
Lixus - Litzu
Alcazarquivir - Uffidu
Ceuta - Sefta
Melilla - Rusadiru

Nejd is pretty much a wildcard. It could stay on the fringe of organised religion for centuries. But a charismatic figure like Abd al-Wahhab himself could establish something lasting and permanent, he just needs to find a powerful patron amongst the local rulers there.

Manicheans would make for interesting terrorists, since their mission would amount to purging evil in the world for the sake of righteousness. I suppose that's what a lot of terrorist groups are after in the end, but Manicheans (or other Gnostics) would probably just openly state that that what's their goal was.

 

[TheSlovakPatriot]

Part 16: The quarells and rise of the Visigoths
Without the Moorish invasiuon, King Roderic was not slain and managed to reign for longer than 712. King Roderic ruled the southwestern part (Former Roman provinces of Lusitanaia, Baetica, ) while Aquila ruled Taracconensis and Septimania. King Roderic had to deal with Berbers raiding the Betican coast, as they were allowed to do so by the Moritanian kings, who hated king Roderic. In one of the balltes in 718, Rioderic was slain, and Berbers take control of Betica for a while. A man named Oppas was proclaimed king in Toledo. He was accepted in Carpetania, Celtiberia, Carthaginensis, Tierra des Campos and Lusitania. Tarraconensis and Septimania remained under the control of Aquila II , who was succeded by Ardo. The northern regions- Asturias, Cantabria, Vasconia retook their independence. Gallaecia was later attached to Oppas´kingdom.
Asturia were led by Pelayo.

Soon however king Oppas resigned from being king, and Ardo was proclaimed king of a unified Visigothic kingdom, consisnting of Lusitania, Gallaecia, Gothica (Tierra de los Campos), Carpetania, Celtiberia, Tarraconensis, Septimania, Carthaginensis. The unification of Visgothia came at around 724. King Ardo rallied the Hispanians under his banner and crushed the berbers in Betica in 726 near Mirobriga. After securing the south at around 727, he turned northwards, where he forced the local lorrds to vassalage. He did not waste his manpower on some petty Basque chieftains. His main whish was southern Gaul, up to the Loire river if possible. King Ardo rememberred that Tolosa used to be once the Visigothic capital, and now is still in Frankish hands. This was to be rectified.

In the 730s, king Ardo raised a large force in Hispania, and passed Caesaraugusta (Zaragoza) and Emporium, until he arrived in Narbo. From there, the Hispanic forces turned westwards, into the Garonne valley, to reclaim Tolosa, the former Visigothic capital. Their foe was Odo, Duke of Aquitaine. Odo was a revolting Frankish Duke, and thus could not count on Frankish aid. King Ardo marched his entire force to the gates of Tolosa, where he asked for negotiations. He sent his herald on a white horse with a white banner. Odo, fortified in Tolosa, having far inferior numbers , openned the gates.
The conversation underwent in Vulgar Latin, in a dialect of Occitan.
"What does thy lord want to tell me?" asked the Duke.
"His Majesty, King Ardo of the Visigoths, of Hispania and Septimania , offers you a splendid peace offer, without any blood spilt from the veins of any of your swordsmen. All my king demands, is an oath of fealty, annual taxes, and return of ALL of former Narbonensis, including thiás city, into the royal fold." the herald replied.
Odo asked for a meeting with the king. He knew that if the Franks will arrive, and he knew they would arrive, their conditions will be worse and harsher. So at the very first moment he heard the offer, he was ready to accept the deal. However, he wanted to show to be more reluctant, to get a better a deal.
So it was, that in 732, Aquitaine came under the rule of the Visigoths, and Tolosa was restored as the seat of the kingś heir. The Franks however, were not to accept the loss of Aqutiane, a part of Gaul to the Visigoths without action. Charles Martel, Maiordomus, gathered all whom he could find ,and crossed the Loire. The two forces met in Poitou....

But the differences are:

• Odo is on the Visigothic side
• The Visigoths knew Frankish tactics.
• The Visigoths knew the geography of the land better
• The Franks did not rally so much troops as they did against the Arabs, as this was not a threat to Chrisitendom, only a threat to their own kingdom.

Hence, the Visigoths managed to win at Poitou. Charles Martel is not seen as the war hero, thus he does not become king and does not depose the Merovingians. This means that no Charlemagne, most probably.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oppas

 

[TheSlovakPatriot]

Here's some of the place names I've noted. Carthage-area African Romance for everything but Mauretania Tingitana/Altava area. I'll post them here in case anyone else is interested in African Romance stuff at some point. Also, unless the city doesn't exist anymore, I'm posting the modern Arabic name.

How about Hadrumetum , and Gafsa? I used Ifriqia/ Efrika on purpose to distinguish Tunisia from the whole continent.

So Moritania is now renamed to MARETAYYA

 

[Arkenfolm]

Having lands on both sides of the Pyrenees and a potential unstable political situation do not seem like a recipe for long-term survival of this Occitano-Hispanic state. But it could lead to an independent and well-established Occitan state later on rather than the collection of Occitan statelets mostly under Paris's thumb from OTL.

How about Hadrumetum , and Gafsa? I used Ifriqia/ Efrika on purpose to distinguish Tunisia from the whole continent.

Hadrumetum is nowadays Sousse (so I had it listed under that), and I listed it as "Adrumitu". Gafsa I didn't list because I didn't have it in my notes at the time (there's a good deal of holes, I was noticing), but it should be "Kabsa".

 

[TheSlovakPatriot]

Having lands on both sides of the Pyrenees and a potential unstable political situation do not seem like a recipe for long-term survival of this Occitano-Hispanic state. But it could lead to an independent and well-established Occitan state later on rather than the collection of Occitan statelets mostly under Paris's thumb from OTL.



Hadrumetum is nowadays Sousse (so I had it listed under that), and I listed it as "Adrumitu". Gafsa I didn't list because I didn't have it in my notes at the time (there's a good deal of holes, I was noticing), but it should be "Kabsa".

Thanks. I was looking at the Roman maps, mot the modern one ...
Yeah the Visigothic rule im Aquitaine is going to be quite unstable, and it will not last long, but it will help to create an Occitan identity.
Also what is most likely to happen is a different evolution of Spanish languages ( in OTL they are stripes going from north to south, as a result of the Reconquista.. but here- I guess they would follow provincial divisions--so a Galician language also for northern Portugal, Asturian (Asturia and adjacent part of Leon), Lusitan (Portugal and Extramadura) Betican (Andalusian- Mozarab without Arabic influence) Carpetan (around Toledo and in Castillia La Mancha ) Cartense (around Cartagena) and Tarragon (for Aragon and western Catalonia as well as Valencia).Cantabria, Navarre and Vasconia would speak a pre-Roman language, while Old Castille would speak Gothic..at least most of it