Although the eurosceptic right is likely to emerge anyway. It just won't be pro-Russian (because there won't be Russia) and probably won't have that much influence.
The Death of Russia - TL
- Thread starter Sorairo
- Start date
Honestly I'm surprised that that man didn't got ousted or impeach for his blunders but back on topic.
I could see a Neoliberalism take a new form compared to IOTL as they will likely be more closer because of the '90s Russian war and Second Great Depression
Honestly I could've a myth or at least a false narrative of Russian downfall in the '90s was caused by Communism similar to Reagan single handedly win the Cold War IOTL
Or similar to the WWII myth of Japan actually was actually to surrender before the nukes dropped in Hiroshima
Honestly I do have to agree because I watched videos about the idealize far right parties in Russia and it surprisingly is favored. Especially in the 90s
Well, there was an impeachment attempt against him in 1999, so there's that.
As @CASSICTOR2 said, there was a lot of far-right activity in Russia post-USSR. So sadly this scenario is not unrealistic.
Yeah there's going to be a serious campaign of denial from neoliberals. Milton Friedman and his ilk will do everything they can to distance themselves from Yeltsin and pretend what happened was never their problem.
Oh yeah the Gulf States will be on board. And then when the nuke explodes...
Closer in terms of what?
Japan did seriously consider surrendering in WWII but that's very complicated and honestly not something I would go in detail. But anyways I absolutely agree that the conservatives will push that narrative so they can wipe their hands clean of the whole shitshow.
Which is kinda what typically happens OTL, e.g. Holodomor, Great Chinese Famine and the Cambodian genocide, just to mention the top 3.
Daniel Goldhagen, who has written extensively about the Holocaust, wrote in his book on genocide that 20th century communist regimes "have killed more people than any other regime type." Stephen Kotkin estimated the total OTL death toll from OTL Communist genocides was some 65m from "mass deportations, forced labor camps and police-state terror", which puts him in the lower middle of the estimates, which range from 20m to 148m.
The surprising thing is, that despite the overwhelming evidence and consensus among acknowledged scholars, many people still deny that Communism is inherently genocidal or indeed that any genocide happened, which is puzzling on a pathological level.
On this site, you can easily find comments like "Stalin had good intentions", "the people loved Castro" or "the dust bowl was just as bad as the great leap forward". You don't find comments like "Hitler had good intentions", "the people loved Mussolini" or "the ww2 Japanese internment camps were just as bad as the Nazi concentration camps" with the same frequency or indeed at all.
Regarding the former, I highly doubt that stuff like the Holodomor, the Great Purge, the Great Leap Forward, or the Cultural Revolution was what Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels had in mind when they wrote the Communist Manifesto or Das Kapital. Was their idea of a "dictatorship of the proletariat" which would give way to the state "withering away" a pipe dream? Certainly. Did it mean that they would have approved of what communist regimes did in the name of their ideas? I don't think so.
You can blame that on a mix of these factors:
1) Confuse declared intentionality with practical intentionality. It basically consists of assuming that since communism declares itself to be the champion of the poor and the oppressed, that means that whatever barbarity they do is in the name of that lofty goal, and therefore justifiable. It is a very common tendency, and one that applies to countries as disparate as the United States and the USSR, to assume that the country that affirms that its actions respond to high purposes is being honest... instead of simply wrapping its shit in holy rhetoric so it doesn't suck so much.
2) Guilt by association. Usually the people who insist on how very genocidal and inherently evil communism is... are characters from the most extreme right, just as unpleasant, who would probably support organizing their own genocides. Disgusting people that hardly anyone wants to associate with. You only have to observe that the main arguments against critics of communism can be reduced to "it's your hate and right-wing fanatical prejudices that speak. You don't state factual facts, you spew baseless fascist propaganda."
3) Nazism. For decades people have been told (for very good reasons and factual facts) that Nazism is the most evil ideology in human history. Like that communism and Nazism are mortal enemies, and that Nazism is obsessed with race and genocide while communism is not. After that, people will generally be skeptical of the idea that communism is inherently genocidal.
4) The perception, often based on reality, that academics live in ivory towers and are totally disconnected from the real world. As well as that they behave like arrogant gods, judging and condemning humanity from a pedestal in which they themselves are placed without any right. In addition to frequent accusations that "academics" are in fact bought by powerful groups. Therefore, the assumption is that "academics" simply repeat in a completely uncritical fashion whatever the loudest yelling tells them, or spit out what they have been paid to say.
I think trade and closer to the US sphere of influence.
Neoliberalism may have a opportunity to see himself as "New Ideas" for the West against the more pessimistic 90s
I might be wrong about it so yeah keep in mind with that one
Have to disagree but that will be on off topic so let's us respectfully disagree with that
Absolutely agree as well with likely most of the western countries (expect Ex-Soviet States) most likely buy the idea the Causes of the Russian collapse was communism which for the most part are right but conveniently left out Yeltsin in the narrative
Yeah dunno about that. After the Russian implosion, there's going to be more hostility to privatization and shock "therapy" bullshit. And any government who wants to get into market economy stuff will have to tread far more carefully.
Except?
The Ex-Soviet States would probably know that's Communism isn't the only reason for the Russian collapse
They do believe communism is a factor but not the main cause of it because they know what it's like there and how shit can operates in the Soviet Union
True that Communism has been deadlier ideology than nazism but it should take in notice that nazism lasted only 12 years and communism has lasted several decades. And communism managed to spread itself around the world unlike nazism. And it should too remember that nazis had much more horrible plans what they managed to do. Holocaust was just waming up compared with Generalplan Ost which would had meant wiping almost all Slavs, Romanis and Jews from face of Earth. Most brutal phases of communism lasted only while and moderated itself after deaths of Stalin and Mao. That hardly would had happened with nazism after Hitler's death.
Marx or Engels never promoted genocides or mass starvation policy. They just wanted give all power to workers. Too many things just went wrong with communism and it became what it was. Marx and Engels probably would had been disgusted about actions of Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot. They pretty surely would too hate North Korea.
But nazism was from beginning extremely anti-semitic and racist. Genocide and conquest wars were targets of nazis from beginning.
Not really. There has been banned Holodomor denialists as easily as Holocaust denialists. If someone says "Stalin/Mao did nothing wrong!" he can expect banhammer hitting quickly and mercyless.
Agreed.
While Western governments will go through the "blame communism" narrative I see some people (and maybe an increasingly amount) clearing the air on this issue and blame neoliberalism for creating the no-turning-back moment with Yeltsin's death.
Yep I can honestly see them blaming Neoliberalism AND Communism for Russia downfall in the modern day
Anyways, to shift topics, what do you think will Al-Qaeda's target with the nuke they stole from Anpilov's Russia be? Would it be an Israeli city he targets or would he target a city in the West?
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Well, to quote Friedrich Engels on what he termed "Völkerabfälle" (literally "trash people"), then "the general war which will then break out will [..] wipe out all these petty hidebound nations, down to their very names. The next world war will result in the disappearance from the face of the earth not only of reactionary classes and dynasties, but also of entire reactionary peoples. And that, too, is a step forward."
In general, it is agreed by historians such as Andrzej Walicki and George Watson, that Communism is inherently genocidal, indeed there is a significant following around the view that the reason that Hitler became developed his policy of genocide came from his period of fascination with Marxism in his youth.
Besides this, or rather regardless of the origins of the Communist faith, then let's remember the question here to the story was "why do communist regimes in this story turn to genocide", and the answer given was "because that is what they do historically". OTL, nobody stood up, when e.g. the Castro regime executed children for having "capitalist parents", Mao's China forced "enemies of the people" to bury their family alive, or when Khrushchev's Soviet Union massacred a unit of striking workers and their families for protesting against low wages, and said "but, like, this isn't what Marx, liked, intended", and therefore it would be quite realistic in a story, if no one was to do so in a story either.
The West as They did Target the US in the 1990s so likely they would still attack but larger scale even more than 9/11
Dude please don't turn into an Debate about "Communist x or that" so can we quickly stop the discussion about this and enjoy a story
All right let go back on topic and discuss about one thing that is unquestion:
What happened to Anti-russian sentiment in the West? and if it's going to increase or decrease in the modern day
It probably increased during the NSF take over though international sympathy for Russian refugees might decrease it.
Though the question is what Western city they'll target.