The Death of Russia - TL

[rfmcdonald]

Eh, the restoration date is more symbolic in a one last kick in the balls kinda way. As if it's saying "After all this bullshit, we're right back where we started".

I wonder how socialist/communist organizations will respond to this.

In what is left of Russia, even without what the author has written I doubt that there would be any significant criticism. The catastrophe has thoroughly depoliticized Russia, making anything but the basic policies that would enable survival in the context of the horribly failed dreams of the past unafforfable.

Outside Russia, there would be more criticism but I do not see that much. The case can be legitimately made that the whole 1917-1996 period was a huge catastrophe that destroyed Russia, could easily have taken the world with it, and for no good reason. Why not try to seal it?

 

[TickTock The Witch's Dead]

I think a lot of this might be unavoidable, would probably happen even the West stopped caring. Consider that European Russia has gone from the most populous country in Europe, the core of what was undeniably one of two superpowers, to utter ruin. In terms of per capita output, Russia is probably one of the poorest countries in Europe if not the poorest (Albania, at least, is intact). More, unlike OTL, Russia does not even have the advantage of an especially large population. What is the total, 25 or 30 million? Poland and Ukraine are authentic powerhouses while the Asian successor states have well-managed natural resource wealth, but Russia is simply a very poor and not especially populous country that in and of itself will not attract much attention.

I can definitely see massive protests if the government is inept at stopping foreign countries and corporations from preying on Russia. Then again I imagine Russian society would be so broken that said protests would be rare.

In what is left of Russia, even without what the author has written I doubt that there would be any significant criticism. The catastrophe has thoroughly depoliticized Russia, making anything but the basic policies that would enable survival in the context of the horribly failed dreams of the past unafforfable.

Outside Russia, there would be more criticism but I do not see that much. The case can be legitimately made that the whole 1917-1996 period was a huge catastrophe that destroyed Russia, could easily have taken the world with it, and for no good reason. Why not try to seal it?

For socialists/communists, I imagine that they'll blame Gorbachev, or the 1991 attempted coup, or Yeltsin for all of this. Either way this'll be a massive blow to their morale knowing all Lenin did was for nothing.

 

[Whiteshore]

In what is left of Russia, even without what the author has written I doubt that there would be any significant criticism. The catastrophe has thoroughly depoliticized Russia, making anything but the basic policies that would enable survival in the context of the horribly failed dreams of the past unafforfable.

Outside Russia, there would be more criticism but I do not see that much. The case can be legitimately made that the whole 1917-1996 period was a huge catastrophe that destroyed Russia, could easily have taken the world with it, and for no good reason. Why not try to seal it?

On that end, how do you see Kerensky and the SRs/Mensheviks as a whole to be viewed here? I wouldn’t be surprised if a popular cliche in TTL’s AH.Com is that an SR Russia would have been some sort of utopian scenario.

 

[cex]

I think that 1996 and 4/10 will definitely be seen as the end of an era. I agree that it will be seen as an end of a historical phenomenon not limited to Russia, that of the old territorial empires and autonomous great powers. Russia has dissolved entirely and the Russian successor states put together simply are not a force, even if they were allowed to be. Like the western Europeans who ended up decolonizing after two world wars and one Cold War, and like other post-Communist Europeans who simply lack whatever aspirations for grandeur they might have had, the Russians have given up. So ends the age of European empire.

Not only that, but ITTL, the two Reconquistas are exact bookends/mirror images of each other: in the First Reconquista, Roman Catholicism purged Islam from the Iberian Peninsula, while in the Second Reconquista, the various Muslim nations of the Caucasus rose up together against Eastern Orthodox Russia and extirpated it from the region.

I would argue that most people have no idea at all about the Circassian genocide OTL. This will surely colour not just his reputation.

If there was a The Romanovs TV series, how would each Tsar have been portrayed?

I think that the tactics that would work best for Russia would be to play up its European nature, to suggest that any Sonderweg was not really all that (and politely passing by the enormous human costs over 1914-1996 of the separate path that was taken).

ITTL, it would be emphasized how Russia is not really a part of Western/European civilisation, being an heir of Eastern Orthodox Christianity and Imperial Roman autocracy.

BTW, would the NSF state and the Nashis have glorified the Catholic Monarchs for the Reconquista and the subsequent expulsion of Jews and Muslims from Spain as a model for what should happen to "The Russian Question"? Or would they have viewed the Catholic Church as heretics(led by a Pole!) denying the primacy of Orthodoxy, Autocracy and Nationality?

 

[Whiteshore]

Not only that, but ITTL, the two Reconquistas are exact bookends/mirror images of each other: in the First Reconquista, Roman Catholicism purged Islam from the Iberian Peninsula, while in the Second Reconquista, the various Muslim nations of the Caucasus rose up together against Eastern Orthodox Russia and extirpated it from the region.

On that note, Siberia and the FEK could be compared to how a shared language and culture did not prevent British and Spanish colonists in the Americas from developing an "American" identity and fighting for independence against colonial rule.

 

[cex]

On that note, Siberia and the FEK could be compared to how a shared language and culture did not prevent British and Spanish colonists in the Americas from developing an "American" identity and fighting for independence against colonial rule.

The Tsardom/Empire would probably be seen here as an artificial imposition on the rest of Russia by the Grand Duchy of Moscow, whose legacy is now entirely extinct after Barkashov's annihlation of the city during the Second Russian Civil War.

 

[Lalli]

I wonder how socialist/communist organizations will respond to this.

Communism is basically dead in Russia. There would be probably only just moderate socialists but I doubt that they care so much as long as monarch is just symbol of the state without any actual power. Most of Russians would now prioritise reconstruction not some minor political ranting should there be tsar or president. And socialists probably would blame Yeltsin all of these horrors. He basically allowed that shock therapy and failed to deal with parliament during October Crisis.

 

[TickTock The Witch's Dead]

Communism is basically dead in Russia. There would be probably only just moderate socialists but I doubt that they care so much as long as monarch is just symbol of the state without any actual power. Most of Russians would now prioritise reconstruction not some minor political ranting should there be tsar or president. And socialists probably would blame Yeltsin all of these horrors. He basically allowed that shock therapy and failed to deal with parliament during October Crisis.

I meant outside of Russia. Hope that helps.

 

[Mitridates the Great]

The NSF and the Nashis would never glorify the Catholic Monarchs or the Spanish Reconquista.

First of all, they are too ignorant and most likely don't even know about those concepts.

Second, the Catholic Monarchs were just that, Catholic, while the NSF's view is surely Protestant when it comes to Catholicism (ie, they consider it the culmination of all that is evil and vile in an ecclesiastical institution).

Lastly, since the Nashis emphasize how everything Russian is superior, they would never do anything they would consider to be "glorifying filthy papist foreigners".

 

[Whiteshore]

Eh, the restoration date is more symbolic in a one last kick in the balls kinda way. As if it's saying "After all this bullshit, we're right back where we started".

And on that note, them opting to have it be on November 7 would illustrate the common misconception the Bolsheviks overthrew the Tsar instead of a shortlived Provisional Government which sought to create a Russian Democratic Federative Republic (the Constituent Assembly named Russia that) out of the ashes of the old Tsardom.

 

[rfmcdonald]

For socialists/communists, I imagine that they'll blame Gorbachev, or the 1991 attempted coup, or Yeltsin for all of this. either way this'll be a massive blow to their morale knowing all Lenin did was for nothing.

Define "socialists/communists".

The last regime in Russian territory to be Communist was Anpilov's, of which the best that can be said is that his regime did not have rape camps for ethnic minorities. Anyone who might even rhetorically claim allegiance or association with this regime would, I would judge, be automatically discredited by the mainstream as a critic.

Anyone on the left who would want to be taken seriously would have to break with the Bolshevik revolution and its heritage. The crimes of the Anpilov regime, which culminated in its waging a nuclear war that destroyed the Russian nation, are not an anomaly but rather a final culmination of that heritage.

On that end, how do you see Kerensky and the SRs/Mensheviks as a whole to be viewed here? I wouldn’t be surprised if a popular cliche in TTL’s AH.Com is that an SR Russia would have been some sort of utopian scenario.

I suspect that Kerensky might be elevated, in a way, as the one man whose choices could have radically altered Russian history. Debates could focus on whether or not he was in a position to make things better and/or if he was capable of seizing the opportunity.

 

[rfmcdonald]

ITTL, it would be emphasized how Russia is not really a part of Western/European civilisation, being an heir of Eastern Orthodox Christianity and Imperial Roman autocracy.

That could happen, and I think that will be a common tendency. I was thinking of playing up Russia's European connections as something that Russians might do. Compare, if you would, the seachanges in German identity and the external representation of Germany over the decades. Anything that could lead to a popular representation of Russia as not separate from Europe but as a European country with bad luck would be in Russian interests.

BTW, would the NSF state and the Nashis have glorified the Catholic Monarchs for the Reconquista and the subsequent expulsion of Jews and Muslims from Spain as a model for what should happen to "The Russian Question"? Or would they have viewed the Catholic Church as heretics(led by a Pole!) denying the primacy of Orthodoxy, Autocracy and Nationality?

I would think that while there might be some approval for the Catholic Monarchs' actions, I think that overall early modern Spain would be too remote to be that relevant.

On that note, Siberia and the FEK could be compared to how a shared language and culture did not prevent British and Spanish colonists in the Americas from developing an "American" identity and fighting for independence against colonial rule.

It would be interesting, particularly since the formation of these identities was both successful and quite recent.

This, in turn, could bring interesting insights to bear onto the formation of national identities in the subject territories of other European empires, settler and otherwise. How quick were these shifts? How contingent were they on certain things happening?

 

[Whiteshore]

That could happen, and I think that will be a common tendency. I was thinking of playing up Russia's European connections as something that Russians might do. Compare, if you would, the seachanges in German identity and the external representation of Germany over the decades. Anything that could lead to a popular representation of Russia as not separate from Europe but as a European country with bad luck would be in Russian interests.

Catherine the Great's German roots would very much be played up ITTL, for starters, especially with how the Romanov monarchy was restored.

 

[Deus_Vult]

Anyone on the left who would want to be taken seriously would have to break with the Bolshevik revolution and its heritage. The crimes of the Anpilov regime, which culminated in its waging a nuclear war that destroyed the Russian nation, are not an anomaly but rather a final culmination of that heritage.

I'm afraid that you are too optimistic. While, as mentioned in the story, communsim has become a very dirty word, with the CCP even changing their name, socialism remains and I have little doubt that they'll clinge onto Bolshevism.

We know of all of the crimes that the likes of Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao and countless other communists did. Yet this does not stop prominent academics from supporting those scumbags. Communism is a scam, designed to let wealthy, educated people with no real power to take that power, using the poor as cannonfodder. As such, there are simply too many interest groups who'd like to keep the ideology. All those people will probably try to rebrand the Bolsheviks as socialists, to get away from the stigma of communism, but I wouldn't count on them actually changing their policies or acknowleding that they did anything wrong.

 

[Mitridates the Great]

Based on current trends, I'm leaning rather that the TTL communists will try to lie outright and flagrantly about how Russian Bolshevism was actually a far-right ideology that has nothing to do with actual perfect communism.

We can see reflections of that trend in OTL and the attempts to rebrand Stalin as some kind of "right-wing paleoconservative who was completely ignorant about Marxism and communism" because such people resent that Stalin re-criminalized being LGBT in the USSR later. that Lenin abolished those laws...

 

[Deus_Vult]

Based on current trends, I'm leaning rather that the TTL communists will try to lie outright and flagrantly about how Russian Bolshevism was actually a far-right ideology that has nothing to do with actual perfect communism.

... I hate that I can absolutely see that happening. Although considering typical tankie antics, and taking into account that the political climate moves towards the center, I think that the people on the political fringe, both far-right and far-left will radicalize as the hemmorage members, leading to them just screaming unhinged crap about how "the USSR was a utopia, until the Jews and Americans ruined it" and "all those claims about Stalin are just fascist propaganda!"

Because no commie is going to be even remotely mainstream here and all the even remotely reasonable ones will leave for ideologies that haven't committed such atrocities and proven themselves to be such abject failures, leaving only the most hardcore followers behind.

 

[TickTock The Witch's Dead]

Define "socialists/communists".

The last regime in Russian territory to be Communist was Anpilov's, of which the best that can be said is that his regime did not have rape camps for ethnic minorities. Anyone who might even rhetorically claim allegiance or association with this regime would, I would judge, be automatically discredited by the mainstream as a critic.

Anyone on the left who would want to be taken seriously would have to break with the Bolshevik revolution and its heritage. The crimes of the Anpilov regime, which culminated in its waging a nuclear war that destroyed the Russian nation, are not an anomaly but rather a final culmination of that heritage.

I define socialists/communists as anti-capitalists who tended to be pro-Soviet and/or Marxist.

I can see people on the left still claim that what happened in Russia wasn’t inevitable and blame the fascists for it. Or Stalin. Or Yeltsin. Or anyone else.

 

[Pax_Nihil]

Any new generation of Russians to have the misfortune of their early years in the Motherland itself would probably be uneducated and completely ignorant of what they are (courtesy of their only educators being whoever is acting as their caretaker(s)), even considering having a sense of nationalism when they'd be scraping by day to day would be an abstract that I'm sure would not be simple to try expanding upon and instilling as a concept, not until the infrastructure of the whole society around them is functioning at a Little House On The Prairie level with schools and churches again.

Blargh that hurt to type for some reason lol

 

[rfmcdonald]

I'm afraid that you are too optimistic. While, as mentioned in the story, communsim has become a very dirty word, with the CCP even changing their name, socialism remains and I have little doubt that they'll clinge onto Bolshevism.

Who is "they", though?

We know of all of the crimes that the likes of Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao and countless other communists did. Yet this does not stop prominent academics from supporting those scumbags. Communism is a scam, designed to let wealthy, educated people with no real power to take that power, using the poor as cannonfodder. As such, there are simply too many interest groups who'd like to keep the ideology. All those people will probably try to rebrand the Bolsheviks as socialists, to get away from the stigma of communism, but I wouldn't count on them actually changing their policies or acknowleding that they did anything wrong.

Based on current trends, I'm leaning rather that the TTL communists will try to lie outright and flagrantly about how Russian Bolshevism was actually a far-right ideology that has nothing to do with actual perfect communism.

We can see reflections of that trend in OTL and the attempts to rebrand Stalin as some kind of "right-wing paleoconservative who was completely ignorant about Marxism and communism" because such people resent that Stalin re-criminalized being LGBT in the USSR later. that Lenin abolished those laws...

I think that the one factor that you both overlook is the extent to which these crimes are not just contemporary but global. It is not a matter of atrocities committed a couple of generations ago but of crimes being committed in full view of the world, around the world even with the final nuclear spasm. To an extent that I think has to be appreciated, everyone alive on 4/10 has deeply relevant experiences. The only thing OTL I can compare this to is the way that 9/11 was a polarizing global experience, but even this comparison falls short because the worst damage was limited to a relatively small portion of one city.

I think that the closest comparison might be to the former Yugoslavia in the 1990s. In that case, you did have some people who actively supported Serbia and Serbian nationalists, some in the left because they let their nostalgia for the Titoist alternative and their dream of a different world without Western hegemony overcome their good sense, some on the right because they approved of the killing of Muslims. (You can see, re: the latter, faint echoes of the next decade's Eurasia theories.) Others were simply nostalgic for past friendships between Serbia and their country.

The fatal issues that these encountered is that very few people outside of these circles agreed with this. People on the left might have wanted a different utopian world and people in the right might have been hostile to immigrants and/or Muslims and/or ethnic minorities, but to an overwhelming extent they disapproved profoundly that mass killings and war were the way to handle it. There were many people concerned with old friendships, but trying to play upon past friendships to justify one's own crimes was not a tactic that worked anywhere outside of Russia, there because of Russia's own resentments at how the 20th century turned out. People were not invested in this.

There is definitely going to be political radicalism in the future; there are too many inequities in this world, as in our own, for this not to happen. The post-4/10 political centre is going to decline in Western countries, too, as memories diminish. What I feel confident in saying is that, outside of certain minorities utterly disaffected with regular politics, the Soviet example will be one that will be shied away from. For generations, the fear shared worldwide that a Communist regime heir to the Soviet Union would end the world is not going away.

Beyond that, there is the matter of practicality: Ignoring everything else, the Soviet system just did not work. Sure, you can go all edgelord about the Soviet system in the way others might about the Nazi system, but ignoring the limited reach of edgelords why would someone looking for a better future look to something that resulted in catastrophe?

 

[TickTock The Witch's Dead]

There is definitely going to be political radicalism in the future; there are too many inequities in this world, as in our own, for this not to happen. The post-4/10 political centre is going to decline in Western countries, too, as memories diminish. What I feel confident in saying is that, outside of certain minorities utterly disaffected with regular politics, the Soviet example will be one that will be shied away from. For generations, the fear shared worldwide that a Communist regime geir to the Soviet Union would end the world is not going away.

Beyond that, there is the matter of practicality: Ignoring everything else, the Soviet system just did not work. Sure, you can go all edgelord about the Soviet system in the way others might about the Nazi system, but ignoring the limited reach of edgelords why would someone looking for a better future look to something that resulted in catastrophe?

There'll be people who'll still defend the USSR by claiming that the way it fell was not inevitable the way Yugoslavia fell was not inevitable either. They'll just find other factors to blame from Gorbachev to the NSF to Osama. The most charitable ones will blame horrible politicians for driving the USSR into the ground and say that the USSR could still work if the wrong people didn't take charge.

And I agree with the first paragraph. I disagree with the author of politics being more "centrist" as a result of 4/10. Maybe for a little while. But there's going to be a lot of resentment over a lot of things and that's going to blow up big time especially when repressive post-4/10 measures are used to crackdown on dissent.