AFAIK, the island was not officially ceded until the French actually paid the 24 million francs, which took some time, so the official switch happened after the final defeat of Napoleon. I might be wrong though. Bernadotte used the money after he received it 1815, to pay off the Swedish national debt. The official exchange was confirmed at the Conference of Vienna, when the full payment had been made.
The Dead Skunk
- Thread starter Lycaon pictus
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AFAIK, the island was not officially ceded until the French actually paid the 24 million francs, which took some time, so the official switch happened after the final defeat of Napoleon. I might be wrong though. Bernadotte used the money after he received it 1815, to pay off the Swedish national debt. The official exchange was confirmed at the Conference of Vienna, when the full payment had been made.
Lycaon pictus
Donor
stevep, I've rewritten it a little to make it more plausible. The main thing is that the Midnight Charge was planned very quickly by people who'd made a career out of planning, and caught the Coalition army at the worst possible moment.
Now, both sides want to know what their governments are going to decide before they do any more fighting.
Now, both sides want to know what their governments are going to decide before they do any more fighting.
Lycaon
Thanks. It did sound a bit unlikely. Could be very confusing now as no one knows what the hell is going on. Might well cause a fatal split in the allied camp.
I think something could be sorted out that leaves Napoleon II in place but that the allies would be very averse to any French gains from the current campaign being held.
One thought is what is happening in Naples with Murat. [OTL, feeling guilty about having deserted him in 1814 to retain his crown Murat declared very quickly for him in 1815 and that may have killed any faint changes of peace before the Waterloo campaign. If he's done similar TTL as well that will complicate matters somewhat.] Not sure what was happening militarily during this period in S Italy OTL.
Steve
Well the Emperor goes out in glory and they day is bloody enough think both sides will claim it as a victory.
i think this is a strategic victory for the French. With Napoleon I dead there is less incentive for keeping this expensive war going. Some would still want to fight but others will see the enemy as dead and want to go home. And thatwould just be the leadership, you have already addressed the common soldiers morale.
By conntrast the French have a mirale bost from the success of the charge and martyrdom sweeping away the faults and doubts of the Emperor for the moment.
i think there is a very good chance of Napoleon II getting his father's throne. The Coalation would not want a new republic and the Bourbons have exhausted mot of their allos patience. Vienna may also advocate getting their blood on the French imperial throne.
So i stand by the guess of France gaining little to nthing in borders in exchange for self determination within those borders. then everyone starts rebuilding for the next round!
i think this is a strategic victory for the French. With Napoleon I dead there is less incentive for keeping this expensive war going. Some would still want to fight but others will see the enemy as dead and want to go home. And thatwould just be the leadership, you have already addressed the common soldiers morale.
By conntrast the French have a mirale bost from the success of the charge and martyrdom sweeping away the faults and doubts of the Emperor for the moment.
i think there is a very good chance of Napoleon II getting his father's throne. The Coalation would not want a new republic and the Bourbons have exhausted mot of their allos patience. Vienna may also advocate getting their blood on the French imperial throne.
So i stand by the guess of France gaining little to nthing in borders in exchange for self determination within those borders. then everyone starts rebuilding for the next round!
Herr Frage
I would say possibly a tactical victory for the French as they hold the bulk of the battleground and have gained a moral boost at the end.
However the strategic victory goes to the allies as they have, albeit not the ideal way, obtained their main aim. Removing Napoleon as a continued threat to the peace of the continent.
Not sure whether they will all be rebuilding in preparation for a new round. Cautious steps probably but a lot will probably depend on what happens in France. Does it establish a stable government, implode in internal conflict or come under some new military strongman?
Steve
I would say possibly a tactical victory for the French as they hold the bulk of the battleground and have gained a moral boost at the end.
However the strategic victory goes to the allies as they have, albeit not the ideal way, obtained their main aim. Removing Napoleon as a continued threat to the peace of the continent.
Not sure whether they will all be rebuilding in preparation for a new round. Cautious steps probably but a lot will probably depend on what happens in France. Does it establish a stable government, implode in internal conflict or come under some new military strongman?
Steve
Aftermath (2)
Lycaon pictus
Donor
On August 24, the day before Napoleon’s death in battle, Lamarque entered Antwerp in triumph at the head of an army of Frenchmen and Walloon volunteers. The King’s German Legion had fought valiantly against him, but had been defeated.
This news was greeted in London with horror, and with questions from the opposition. For the second time this year, it seemed, Wellington and his army had been in exactly the wrong place at the right time. Was the fate of Antwerp not of greater importance to the Crown than whether France was ruled by House Bourbon or House Bonaparte? Castlereagh’s answer was simple — “We sent His Grace to Lorraine because Bonaparte was there. It was our intention to strike at the head of the snake, not its tail. Let the true king of France be restored, and all else can be set right.” Soon enough, they got word that the snake’s head had indeed been struck off. It remained to be seen whether the snake was a cobra or a Lernean Hydra…
The armies that fought in Lorraine at least had the honor of contending with the man Wellington himself called the greatest general “in this age, in past ages, in any age.” The Spaniard, at least at first, found the French to be less trouble then their own king.
After a force of hastily assembled conscripts under Decaen fought the Spanish to a draw at La Rhune (August 10) and a similar force under Clauzel outright defeated them at Font-Romeu (August 13) the capricious King Ferdinand grew suspicious of his army. Despite the later successes of the Spaniards in taking Bayonne and Perpignan, Ferdinand began sending political officers — Inquisitors in all but name — to hunt through the ranks of the officer corps for signs of liberalism and constitutionalism. Generals and colonels under suspicion were cashiered, imprisoned, or had their command stripped of vital units, which were sent to other officers deemed (for the moment) trustworthy.
There may well have been cadres of dissatisified liberal officers before Ferdinand began his purge of the officer corps. As the events of the next year would prove, there certainly were plenty afterward…
With the king of Saxony sending diplomatic missives to Austria, with the rebellions in Poland and Italy still underway, with the news that Murat himself had returned from Corsica to join the Italian rebels, all eyes were on Kaiserslautern, where King Louis was once more heeding the advice of Talleyrand — and Paris, where no one seemed to know who was in charge.
P.G. Sherman, 1815 And All That
This news was greeted in London with horror, and with questions from the opposition. For the second time this year, it seemed, Wellington and his army had been in exactly the wrong place at the right time. Was the fate of Antwerp not of greater importance to the Crown than whether France was ruled by House Bourbon or House Bonaparte? Castlereagh’s answer was simple — “We sent His Grace to Lorraine because Bonaparte was there. It was our intention to strike at the head of the snake, not its tail. Let the true king of France be restored, and all else can be set right.” Soon enough, they got word that the snake’s head had indeed been struck off. It remained to be seen whether the snake was a cobra or a Lernean Hydra…
The armies that fought in Lorraine at least had the honor of contending with the man Wellington himself called the greatest general “in this age, in past ages, in any age.” The Spaniard, at least at first, found the French to be less trouble then their own king.
After a force of hastily assembled conscripts under Decaen fought the Spanish to a draw at La Rhune (August 10) and a similar force under Clauzel outright defeated them at Font-Romeu (August 13) the capricious King Ferdinand grew suspicious of his army. Despite the later successes of the Spaniards in taking Bayonne and Perpignan, Ferdinand began sending political officers — Inquisitors in all but name — to hunt through the ranks of the officer corps for signs of liberalism and constitutionalism. Generals and colonels under suspicion were cashiered, imprisoned, or had their command stripped of vital units, which were sent to other officers deemed (for the moment) trustworthy.
There may well have been cadres of dissatisified liberal officers before Ferdinand began his purge of the officer corps. As the events of the next year would prove, there certainly were plenty afterward…
With the king of Saxony sending diplomatic missives to Austria, with the rebellions in Poland and Italy still underway, with the news that Murat himself had returned from Corsica to join the Italian rebels, all eyes were on Kaiserslautern, where King Louis was once more heeding the advice of Talleyrand — and Paris, where no one seemed to know who was in charge.
P.G. Sherman, 1815 And All That
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But Belgium isn't independent, unless I missed something back in the Congress of Vienna posts. The provisional Gouvernement-général de la Belgique OTL lasted from late Jan. - early Feb. 1814 'til May 1815, when it became "officially" part of the United Netherlands. Even then, Willem Frederik had already been named Gouverneur-général back in August 1814, thus the quotes on officially...
bm79
I suspect that what Lycaon meant was whether it was better trying to achieve Belgium separation from France, or any other potential threat by war or by other means.
Think it would be a moot point anyway as by this time no one really trusted Napoleon to keep his word or respect the independence of neighbouring states. However with his death other prospects do open up.
Steve
Lycaon pictus
Donor
Like everyone else (only a few weeks behind) they're waiting to see who comes out on top in France. Their dream is a Franco-American alliance, but wiser heads like Madison and Monroe understand that as things are, France and the United States are not very well situated to assist each other.
Lycaon pictus
Donor
Certainly. I didn't want to leave everyone hanging like this, but there were some other non-AH writing projects that kind of took over my brain for a while.
I promise to update within the next three days.
I promise to update within the next three days.
Aftermath (3)
Lycaon pictus
Donor
“Heaven has gained a citizen, and Earth has lost an emperor. Never shall we see his like again.”
With these words, in a letter to the heads of the Coalition nations dated September 4 (but, pointedly, not to Louis XVIII) the French Regency Council acknowledged the passing of Napoleon I. Said Council consisted of Napoleon’s surviving brothers (Joseph more or less first among equals, but not so much that he dared reach for the throne himself), the marshals of the French army and the leaders of the new Parliament.
In this missive, the Council also affirmed its desire for peace with the members of the Coalition, and called on those nations to respect the sovereignty of the French government within the “natural boundaries” of the French people — which included everything south and west of the Rhine and the Waal. (As Prince Joseph would later say, “When negotiations are about to begin, only a fool asks for less than he wants.”)
There was, however, some dispute as to whether negotiations were in fact to begin. Also on September 4, Louis XVIII devised a plan for the Coalition army. His plan was… to do nothing, and to wait for the illegitimate, ramshackle government in Paris to collapse into anarchy. “Soon enough, the thieves will fall out,” he said. The Coalition army withdrew to Karlsruhe in September.
To the British and the Dutch, the French occupation of Antwerp remained an insurmountable problem. The Spanish had a grudge against Prince Joseph, whom they had come to call “José de las Joyas” for his pilfering of the crown jewels before his flight from Madrid. The Austrians were at this moment fighting a rebellion in Italy to which the French were offering some small support… small support being all they could afford to offer at this point. They had no intention of making peace with France — in fact, they were solidifying their ties to the states of Baden and Württemberg.
The Prussians were another matter. Although the government of Frederick William III had lovingly stoked the fires of anti-French sentiment among its people, the fact remained that the kingdom was in a very bad way, and could not afford to have its soldiers languish through the winter in hastily made French prisoner-of-war camps while the estates of Prussian nobles burned. But to negotiate with France, even for mutual recognition of parole, it would first be necessary to recognize the French government, which would mean repudiating the Bourbon king.
Russia was in the opposite position from Prussia. As Tsar Alexander stated coolly, “The French could not conquer us when they had defeated all others. Should we fear them now?” His ministers had learned at Vienna how the rest of Europe feared the expansion of Russian power. Clearly there was no further reason for Russian blood to be spilled on behalf of the houses of Hapsburg or Bourbon. So it was that both Wilhelm von Humboldt and Count Nesselrode found themselves in Paris that October, negotiating with Caulaincourt.
The Treaty of 20 October was a simple one. France withdrew all claims to Prussian and Russian territory and paroled and released all prisoners from those nations, and Prussia and Russia both recognized the French government. Russia declared peace and withdrew from the Coalition entirely, while Prussia merely remained in a state of cease-fire. The important thing, from the Prussian king’s perspective, was that the Prussian POWs could now offer their parole to Paris, return home and save the kingdom. (Of course, their first act on returning to Prussia was to go to Berlin and crush the anti-French rioters who had taken to the streets on learning of this peace.)
P.G. Sherman, 1815 And All That
With these words, in a letter to the heads of the Coalition nations dated September 4 (but, pointedly, not to Louis XVIII) the French Regency Council acknowledged the passing of Napoleon I. Said Council consisted of Napoleon’s surviving brothers (Joseph more or less first among equals, but not so much that he dared reach for the throne himself), the marshals of the French army and the leaders of the new Parliament.
In this missive, the Council also affirmed its desire for peace with the members of the Coalition, and called on those nations to respect the sovereignty of the French government within the “natural boundaries” of the French people — which included everything south and west of the Rhine and the Waal. (As Prince Joseph would later say, “When negotiations are about to begin, only a fool asks for less than he wants.”)
There was, however, some dispute as to whether negotiations were in fact to begin. Also on September 4, Louis XVIII devised a plan for the Coalition army. His plan was… to do nothing, and to wait for the illegitimate, ramshackle government in Paris to collapse into anarchy. “Soon enough, the thieves will fall out,” he said. The Coalition army withdrew to Karlsruhe in September.
To the British and the Dutch, the French occupation of Antwerp remained an insurmountable problem. The Spanish had a grudge against Prince Joseph, whom they had come to call “José de las Joyas” for his pilfering of the crown jewels before his flight from Madrid. The Austrians were at this moment fighting a rebellion in Italy to which the French were offering some small support… small support being all they could afford to offer at this point. They had no intention of making peace with France — in fact, they were solidifying their ties to the states of Baden and Württemberg.
The Prussians were another matter. Although the government of Frederick William III had lovingly stoked the fires of anti-French sentiment among its people, the fact remained that the kingdom was in a very bad way, and could not afford to have its soldiers languish through the winter in hastily made French prisoner-of-war camps while the estates of Prussian nobles burned. But to negotiate with France, even for mutual recognition of parole, it would first be necessary to recognize the French government, which would mean repudiating the Bourbon king.
Russia was in the opposite position from Prussia. As Tsar Alexander stated coolly, “The French could not conquer us when they had defeated all others. Should we fear them now?” His ministers had learned at Vienna how the rest of Europe feared the expansion of Russian power. Clearly there was no further reason for Russian blood to be spilled on behalf of the houses of Hapsburg or Bourbon. So it was that both Wilhelm von Humboldt and Count Nesselrode found themselves in Paris that October, negotiating with Caulaincourt.
The Treaty of 20 October was a simple one. France withdrew all claims to Prussian and Russian territory and paroled and released all prisoners from those nations, and Prussia and Russia both recognized the French government. Russia declared peace and withdrew from the Coalition entirely, while Prussia merely remained in a state of cease-fire. The important thing, from the Prussian king’s perspective, was that the Prussian POWs could now offer their parole to Paris, return home and save the kingdom. (Of course, their first act on returning to Prussia was to go to Berlin and crush the anti-French rioters who had taken to the streets on learning of this peace.)
P.G. Sherman, 1815 And All That
Sounds like peace might finally return to the continent. Can we have a map showing the land the French are demanding?
Lycaon pictus
Donor
And more.
The blue line represents French claims after the agreement with Prussia. The states being inconvenienced by these claims are the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Bavaria and Hesse. Forget Luxembourg and Hesse.
Caulaincourt might possibly be willing to return North Brabant and Limburg to the Dutch in exchange for a full peace treaty and withdrawal from the Coalition. In exchange for returning the Palatinate exclave to Bavaria, he would demand a little more — namely, that Bavaria resume its old alliance with the French. Whether the nations in question will take these deals… I'm not going to reveal just yet.
I am a little surprised that Prussia got to keep all of its territory in Cisrhénanie considering the smackdown the French have given them lately. If they were to insist on keeping the lands on the right bank of the Moselle, that would still be more than generous to the Prussians, especially since they've only had title to the land for less than a year.
As to Belgium, the Dutch are probably as insignificant in the negotiations as Lux. and Hesse: it's the British who matter here, and of course the issue is Antwerp. As long as Antwerp remains in French hands, I see the Brits refusing to end hostilities.
Generosity was likely intentional. The return of that land shows a sincere desire ufor peace. Also Prussia is not going to look for another round soon so at the moment generousity can be afforded.
France needs peace now to rebuild and form the Regency into a viable government. With Prussia and Russia gone others are likely to settle and the British are more apt to negotiate.
France needs peace and time more than new lands. The trick is convincing the Coaltion that restoring the Bourbons is more trouble than its worth.
Just wondering, will we be seeing a Federalist Party revival in the U.S.? Maybe a Rufus King administration followed by a Webster during the 30s?
Lycaon pictus
Donor
This. Also, France's real enemy isn't Prussia, Britain or any other one nation, but the Coalition itself — the situation in which practically every nation in Europe is allied against them.
What they've done here is to compromise that. Russia is officially out of the Coalition — and for all practical purposes, so is Prussia. Right now Castlereagh and Metternich are wondering how they're going to get Prussia back in the fight, what they'll have to promise the Dutch to keep them from settling, what they'll have to threaten Bavaria and Denmark with to keep them from switching sides, and how they're supposed to persuade Sweden or Portugal to shed blood for the cause of Bourbon restoration.
Then there's Spain, which at this point is only in it for revenge against Prince Joey the Jewel Thief. Soon enough they're going to notice that their American colonies are in imminent danger of being lost. Meanwhile, their king continues to piss away the popularity he earned by his prolonged absence.