The Daughter of Vienna: History of the Italian Habsburgs

Curt Jester

Banned

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[Map of Europe after the Treaty of Naples.]

Prologue

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"Maria Theresa is one of the saddest stories in history. While many middle aged rulers claimed to be victims, she was one of the few who could actually take the title. Half of Europe called her illegitimate, and only because of her gender! The French, the Prussians, the Bavarians - even the Hungarians! - took advantage of her gender made her heritage disputable and raided her Empire like vermin raiding a kitchen. Indeed, it is a travesty that one of the most powerful empires in Europe had come so far just to fall so hard - over a little issue like gender."

In the year of our lord seventeen hundred and forty, after the death of Emperor Charles VI, Maria Theresa succeeded him as Archduchess of Austria and Queen of Hungary, Croatia and Bohemia. Her husband, King Charles Emmanuel III of Savoy [1], was to succeed her father as the Emperor of the Romans, as women could not ascend to that role. Many rulers across Europe disputed the pragmatic succession that allowed her to ascend to the throne as well as her husband's candidacy for the Imperial crown. In December, Frederick II of Prussia expressed this by declaring war on Austria and invading Silesia. While the Austrian and Prussian armies duked it out in Silesia, however, secret treaties Prussia had made with France and Bavaria enacted and the two of them joined Prussia in the anti-Austrian Coalition. The Grand Duke claimed Austria and Bohemia for himself, as well as the Imperial title - and showed it by invading Austria. On the 14th, a joint army of Bavarians and Frenchmen took Linz. Their path of destruction continued until the 24th of September, 1741, where the dual armies sacked Vienna [2]. This directly lead to the failure of Maria Theresa's plea for help from the Hungarians - they told her that the war was over, and she lost, and gladly took the opportunity to assert their right to independence. Archduchess Maria Theresa finally admitted to losing, and sued for peace.

Signed in the formerly Austrian-controlled city, the Treaty of Naples divided the Austrian inheritance based on the victor's whims and wants. Prussia would keep Silesia as well as taking many smaller Habsburgian domains in the north of the Holy Roman Empire. They would also take the eastern Austrian Netherlands, which would remain garrisoned by the Dutch. The western Austrian Netherlands was annexed by France, and decisively not garrisoned by anyone. The Bourbon block of France, Sicily and Spain would continue to dictate how things would be in western Europe. The British Empire was heavily irritated by this treaty, which they felt was set up to empower their enemies, but did not declare war yet, fearing a major loss. The Hungarians said a gracious goodbye to the Austrians and set up a regency council to determine a new found king. Bavaria was the big winner; The Grand Duke took Bohemia, the southern minor territories of the Habsburg domain, and the Imperial Crown. While the Bavarians tried to assert their claim to Austria itself, it was by the hand of King Frederick that they did not get it (he had convinced both the French and the British, who were acting as a neutral third party, to force the Bavarians to back down. He didn't take the Habsburgs down just for another catholic family to become the next titan of the south German states.) Maria Theresa would keep Austria, Milan and Tuscany, and the French with would withdraw from Savoy. Although the House of Habsburg had fallen apart and their empire ripped to pieces, the young Prince Charles Maximilian [3] would inherit both the Austrian and Sardinian thrones, and all the territory it entailed, and establish the House of Habsburg-Savoy.

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[1] One of two PODs; instead of marrying Francis Stephen, Maria Theresa marries King Charles Emmanuel III of Sardinia, who was conveniently in-between wives in 1735; a year before her marriage to Stephen.
[2] The second POD; butterflies from the first one ensured that more French troops were in Sardinia, and so Charles Albert has less back up troops in his invasion. Instead of taking Prague, he goes for a quick knockout in Vienna, assuming that it could win the war quicker. He was correct.
[3] Charles Maximilian, the Duke of Aosta, was the firstborn son of Maria Theresa and Charles Emmanuel. He was born on November 1st, 1937.​
 
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Interesting start.

One tiny quibble on the map, however; I can see that Poland has its post-First Partition borders, when that didn't happen until 1772 OTL. It should still have Western/Royal Prussia, Galicia, and some eastern parts in Ruthenia.
 
I have a few questions to ask.

Why would Maria Theresa, hier husband, and all those who were favourable to her accept all this without fighting a global war with Britain's (and Russia's) support the way happened OTL ?
They had the ability to fight and so they did.

Why would Hungary, that was so strongly faithful to the Habsburg dynasty, not stand with Maria Theresa ?

Why would the bouse of Savoy just want an empty titre without any territorial gain ? For everybody, the key point was real holding of Habsburg principalities. It was these real assetts that everybody longer for. Giving the imperial title to the house of Savoy without making it a bigges power inside the HRE would be the same thing as abolishing the title. And most of all, you had the houses of Wettin and Wittelsbach that had, through the 2 daughter sur of emperor Joseph I, the most serious claims to the Habsburg possessions and to the imperial title if the pragmatic sanction was nullified.

What did you do with the fact that the spanish Bourbons held the kingdom of Sicily and Naples since 1734 ?

How far one actually control a new territory that had already been basically the cause for war for one century without having forces positioned in this territory ?
When you conquer such a border territory as the spanish-austrian netherlands, you build a network of fortifications inside and, concerning France, you use Anvers as the big harbor well connected on the main european trade roads that you have been missing for centuries.

Why does Luxemburg seems, on your map, to be given to Prussia ?
At that time, I can't see anyone but Frederick II that would want Prussia becoming a power in Rhenania.

Last point : there is a mistake in your map. Hungary could not have annexed Galicia by that time. The partitions of Poland were going to happen a generation later.
 
I've always been interested in a Habsburg Italy...
Except in this case,it won't be a Habsburg Italy,it would be a Savoyard Italy like OTL,only a hundred years earlier.

Venice is probably on the chopping block in order to connect all the Savoyard lands.
 

Curt Jester

Banned
Interesting start.

One tiny quibble on the map, however; I can see that Poland has its post-First Partition borders, when that didn't happen until 1772 OTL. It should still have Western/Royal Prussia, Galicia, and some eastern parts in Ruthenia.

Thanks. I'll trash the map for now, I realize it is heavily flawed, haha.

I have a few questions to ask.

Why would Maria Theresa, hier husband, and all those who were favourable to her accept all this without fighting a global war with Britain's (and Russia's) support the way happened OTL ?
They had the ability to fight and so they did.

Why would Hungary, that was so strongly faithful to the Habsburg dynasty, not stand with Maria Theresa ?

Why would the bouse of Savoy just want an empty titre without any territorial gain ? For everybody, the key point was real holding of Habsburg principalities. It was these real assetts that everybody longer for. Giving the imperial title to the house of Savoy without making it a bigges power inside the HRE would be the same thing as abolishing the title. And most of all, you had the houses of Wettin and Wittelsbach that had, through the 2 daughter sur of emperor Joseph I, the most serious claims to the Habsburg possessions and to the imperial title if the pragmatic sanction was nullified.

What did you do with the fact that the spanish Bourbons held the kingdom of Sicily and Naples since 1734 ?

How far one actually control a new territory that had already been basically the cause for war for one century without having forces positioned in this territory ?
When you conquer such a border territory as the spanish-austrian netherlands, you build a network of fortifications inside and, concerning France, you use Anvers as the big harbor well connected on the main european trade roads that you have been missing for centuries.

Why does Luxemburg seems, on your map, to be given to Prussia ?
At that time, I can't see anyone but Frederick II that would want Prussia becoming a power in Rhenania.

Last point : there is a mistake in your map. Hungary could not have annexed Galicia by that time. The partitions of Poland were going to happen a generation later.

The war went nothing like OTL? Britain hadn't joined yet, neither did Russia.

The Hungarians didn't help Maria Theresa because, due to the POD, Vienna falls instead of Prague. When a capital is taken, generally that's a blow to morale. The Hungarians weren't "loyal and faithful" to the Habsburgs, lol.

At this point, the Duchy of Savoy is still technically in the HRE. It's a stretch, but Francis Stephen was just Duke of Lorraine. As Emperor, he'd gain the entire Habsburg inheritance... that's not 'nothing'. However, he obviously wasn't cut out to be Emperor, which is why Charles Albert gains the Imperial title in the end.

Luxembourg was given to Prussia as a compromise by Britain so that France did not annex the entirety of the Southern Netherlands. At this point, Prussia isn't the beast that it became, and it seems harmless to prop up Prussia alongside Bavaria.

The map is heavily flawed, and i'm taking it down, like I said before.

I am curious - I would associate the Black Eagle with Prussia and not Habsburgerland..., so why does he weep...

I've always heard the Black Eagle in reference to Prussia, Austria and Tsarist Russia. I'll change the title, though.

Except in this case,it won't be a Habsburg Italy,it would be a Savoyard Italy like OTL,only a hundred years earlier.

Venice is probably on the chopping block in order to connect all the Savoyard lands.

Well... not exactly. That's like saying the Austrian Empire IOTL was a Lorraine Empire, not a Habsburg one. The House of Habsburg-Savoy is, and in the history books, will be counted as a successor to the House of Habsburg.
 
Thanks. I'll trash the map for now, I realize it is heavily flawed, haha.



The war went nothing like OTL? Britain hadn't joined yet, neither did Russia.

The Hungarians didn't help Maria Theresa because, due to the POD, Vienna falls instead of Prague. When a capital is taken, generally that's a blow to morale. The Hungarians weren't "loyal and faithful" to the Habsburgs, lol.

At this point, the Duchy of Savoy is still technically in the HRE. It's a stretch, but Francis Stephen was just Duke of Lorraine. As Emperor, he'd gain the entire Habsburg inheritance... that's not 'nothing'. However, he obviously wasn't cut out to be Emperor, which is why Charles Albert gains the Imperial title in the end.

Luxembourg was given to Prussia as a compromise by Britain so that France did not annex the entirety of the Southern Netherlands. At this point, Prussia isn't the beast that it became, and it seems harmless to prop up Prussia alongside Bavaria.

The map is heavily flawed, and i'm taking it down, like I said before.



I've always heard the Black Eagle in reference to Prussia, Austria and Tsarist Russia. I'll change the title, though.



Well... not exactly. That's like saying the Austrian Empire IOTL was a Lorraine Empire, not a Habsburg one. The House of Habsburg-Savoy is, and in the history books, will be counted as a successor to the House of Habsburg.
Question:why would the Savoyards be considered as marrying into the Habsburg dynasty?They were already well recognized Kings at this stage and the Habsburgs have fallen hard to becoming nothing more than a third rate power without the Savoyards.
 

Vitruvius

Donor
So the actual POD is in the 1730s when Maria Theresa marries Charles Emmanuel III? And as his third wife I assume. So I guess I'm wondering how that's all sorted out. Because if his first two marriages follow OTL he has a legitimate son already and so Sardinia-Savoy does not unite with Austria in the long run except temporarily in personal union during the marriage of Charles Emmanuel and Maria Theresa.

Also how does Maria Theresa get Tuscany? The legitimate heir to the Medici was Don Carlos of Spain but he gave up his rights in favor or Francis Stephen in a complicated game a musical chairs. Don Carlos of course got Naples, so did that not happen? And if Francis Stephen isn't in Tuscany where is he? Because France somehow has Lorraine. Maybe it would just be easier to give the Austrian Netherlands to Francis Stephen, make him Grand Duke of Lothier or something like that in compensation. France still picks up territory in the form of Lorraine.

In some respects an easier path might have been to have Charles Emmanuel marry Charles Albert's wife Maria Amalia who was proposed original as a bride for his elder brother Victor Amadeus. At any rate I think this POD requires working through the War of the Polish Succession the Treaty of Vienna (1738) and the Pragmatic Sanction to understand how the table is set when the ATL War of the Austrian Succession begins. That would probably answer a lot of the questions that people are raising.
 
Question:why would the Savoyards be considered as marrying into the Habsburg dynasty?They were already well recognized Kings at this stage and the Habsburgs have fallen hard to becoming nothing more than a third rate power without the Savoyards.

About the same for any royal family that had married into the Habsburg dynasty, prestige of becoming part of one of the oldest families in all of Europe. Still this looks interesting I do believe you've just created the first Habsburg Italy TL's this site has ever seen. I do hope you'll continue
 
Well, I can't see any reason why Hungary would stand alone and drop the Habsburgs and the rest of the empire in times when they were almost permanently at war against the Ottoman empire. That was one major reason for Hungary OTL stayed so faithful to the Habsburgs and why such a diverse empire as the Habsburg empire stayed together for four and a half centuries.

This is, to my opinion, a flaw to your beginning TL. You seem to have built it just considering the result you wanted to reach but you did it forgetting some major circulstances and constraints that make the way you chose not credible.

Just said it to help.
 
So the actual POD is in the 1730s when Maria Theresa marries Charles Emmanuel III? And as his third wife I assume. So I guess I'm wondering how that's all sorted out. Because if his first two marriages follow OTL he has a legitimate son already and so Sardinia-Savoy does not unite with Austria in the long run except temporarily in personal union during the marriage of Charles Emmanuel and Maria Theresa.

Also how does Maria Theresa get Tuscany? The legitimate heir to the Medici was Don Carlos of Spain but he gave up his rights in favor or Francis Stephen in a complicated game a musical chairs. Don Carlos of course got Naples, so did that not happen? And if Francis Stephen isn't in Tuscany where is he? Because France somehow has Lorraine. Maybe it would just be easier to give the Austrian Netherlands to Francis Stephen, make him Grand Duke of Lothier or something like that in compensation. France still picks up territory in the form of Lorraine.

In some respects an easier path might have been to have Charles Emmanuel marry Charles Albert's wife Maria Amalia who was proposed original as a bride for his elder brother Victor Amadeus. At any rate I think this POD requires working through the War of the Polish Succession the Treaty of Vienna (1738) and the Pragmatic Sanction to understand how the table is set when the ATL War of the Austrian Succession begins. That would probably answer a lot of the questions that people are raising.

But the problem with Francis getting the Southern Netherlands, is that they cannot give it to him in the Treaty of Vienna. I mean FRance can't just say, wait and we'll give you a duchy.
 
I don't understand why taking Vienna is supposed to just end the war with the complete collapse of the Habsburgs. Why would it be any worse than the OTL fall of Prague? Wouldn't it leave Charles Albert dangerously overexposed, in that an Austrian army in Bohemia could fall on him from behind and cut off his line of supply? Furthermore, didn't the decision to go to Prague have much to do with the fact that it allowed Charles Albert and the French to join up with the Prussians and Saxons?

Moreover, I think you are greatly overestimating the effects of a conquest of the capital. The French took Vienna twice during the Napoleonic Wars, and took Berlin as we ll, and Napoleon nonetheless found it extremely difficult to dethrone the Habsburgs and Hohenzollerns. The Russians took Berlin during the Seven Years War, and, again, did not find that this won the war for them.

So, basically: the loss of Vienna would be a major blow, but it would not in any respect be decisive. Charles Albert on his own won't be able to defeat the Austrians, and the Saxons and Prussians are deeply unreliable, and particularly won't be able to help him on a campaign in Lower Austria and Hungary. The idea that having *fewer* French forces in Germany will somehow *help* a third rate power completely destroy one of the main European powers pretty much singlehandedly is completely nonsensical.
 
Well, Absburgo-Savoia didn't sound bad. Neither "Austria-Italia" as well.

And now, let the butterflies fly high here!
 
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