The Dagda and the three Saints

[EvolvedSaurian]

Initially it won't have a name, it'll just be "our religion". I need to do a little bit of linguistic work to get its later name (not easy when it means I have to completely change the development of a language in which I can only say the phrases "Kiss my Arse" and "our day will come").

You're a fan as well then?

The beliefs evolve, but I'll deal with them more fully in a couple of days. One interesting fact is that 7th century Christian sources talk about magicians with a belief in reincarnation in contemporary Ireland!

Now that, my friend, is a gift from history...

Reincarnation was pretty much a pan-Celtic belief, with the Irish version involving Tir na Nog (Land of Youth, the Otherworld) as a sort of parallel life.

I'm interested on this.

What sources of information do you have about Ireland's pagan religion? I know not much survives and a great deal of our 'understanding' comes from looking at other Celtic religions that we have some more information about.

Actually, we know a great deal about Irish religion, from the various Cycles that were written down. The bad part of this is that the folks doing the writing were, by and large, Christian monks, who had a stake in making the old ways look bad.

 

[Jaded_Railman]

Actually, we know a great deal about Irish religion, from the various Cycles that were written down. The bad part of this is that the folks doing the writing were, by and large, Christian monks, who had a stake in making the old ways look bad.

Hence me saying little has survived

Honestly the Christian versions of Irish folklore must look, by comparison, like the description of Christianity in the OP.

 

[Deleted member 5719]

As for recognising the names, I got Lughòs, probably named in honour of the Tuatha, Lugh. Probably a few others I can spot but i'll let other people do that since i'm lazy

Spot on. And thanks for saying nice things, but don't worry there's plenty of time for it to go wrong.

What sources of information do you have about Ireland's pagan religion? I know not much survives and a great deal of our 'understanding' comes from looking at other Celtic religions that we have some more information about.

I'm really glad you're interested, it makes a change from us fighting about politics.

There's tons of Christian sources, as Evolved Saurian said. But the problem is that some of it might only be as accurate as the story I wrote at the start is about Christianity. A very good source is the collection of Welsh myths in works like the Mabinogion, the Welsh were more sure of their Christian identity, so allowed blatantly pagan elements of their stories to be recorded without propaganda spin. Perhaps they were even unaware that their beliefs were pagan.

So, "Old King Cole" or "Coel Hen" was a Brigantes chief?!

Well done... he was in my story. The post Roman period is the darkest part of the dark ages in Britain. However, we can be pretty sure there was a post Roman leader in Northern Britain called Coelius. Certain (speculative) authors suggest that he was the last Roman commander at York, but it is clear that in that period a retribalisation of Britain was occuring. I believe him to be a British tribal leader for the following (slightly complicated) reason:

In one Welsh genealogy his father is named as Tegfan, in another as Tegman. This name is clearly Celtic, and is preserved in two versions. The first version shows the same (m > f) sound change which occurs in the change Dumonia > Defnas and Elmetae > Elfed. That phonetic change is dated between 450 > 550 AD, so the fact that the older version is recorded suggests to me that the name is genuine, and Coel Hen was very much a British rather than Romano-British or Roman figure.

You're a fan as well then?

What of the Pogues or of arsekissing?

The beliefs evolve, but I'll deal with them more fully in a couple of days. One interesting fact is that 7th century Christian sources talk about magicians with a belief in reincarnation in contemporary Ireland!

Now that, my friend, is a gift from history...
Reincarnation was pretty much a pan-Celtic belief, with the Irish version involving Tir na Nog (Land of Youth, the Otherworld) as a sort of parallel life.

The source I'm thinking of specifically mentions humans reincarnating as different types of bird... how far are they from arriving at the theory of karma?

 

[EvolvedSaurian]

Hence me saying little has survived

Honestly the Christian versions of Irish folklore must look, by comparison, like the description of Christianity in the OP.

Alright, you make a good point there.

What of the Pogues or of arsekissing?

Yes.

The source I'm thinking of specifically mentions humans reincarnating as different types of bird... how far are they from arriving at the theory of karma?

Huh, I'd only ever heard of reincarnation from human to human, usually within family lines. Karma... Well, pretty far, I think.

 

[Deleted member 5719]

Patricius in Britain, un unhappy homecoming

Patricius found Britain much changed from the Province he had left 13 years before.

The Roman legions had abandoned the wall of Hadrian, along with the rest of Britain. It was now a lightly garrisoned line of demarcation, rather than the formidable military complex of forts and depots he had known in his childhood. The real defenders of the north were now Coelius' client tribes between the two walls, especially the Godotanni.

Trade links with Europe had weakened, due to the chaos in Gallia, where Franks, Vandals and Burgundians were fighting the desperate efforts of Honorius to maintain his empire whole. Foreign goods were becoming scarcer, and wine was now a luxury to all but the richest citizens of Eboracum and Lugvalium. The cities were shabbier than he remembered: what would once have been replaced was repaired. New buildings that would have been built in stone, were now built in wood.

Of course, it was just until things settled down on the continent, The Britons were sure that things would be back to normal in no time at all.

Less travelers came, too, to this distant outpost of the empire; fewer merchants, fewer soldiers and fewer churchmen. The younger foreigners resident in the north (which now seemed to be pronounced The North), made their way back to their homelands and were not replaced by new arrivals. With less foreigners, there was less need for Latin, and even in the towns the language of Rome was rarely heard in the streets, though it remained the language of the educated classes.

Britain had become more, well, British, and with this, old pagan British ways came creeping back.

Patricius, Father Patricius, raged against these practices. The veneration of rocks and stones by supposed Christians, the feeding of house gods (now euphemistically called “house spirits” or “bucci”), the telling of tales about “the fair folk”, who were clearly none but the old gods in half-hearted masque... hardly a single Briton was entirely free of these vestiges of pagan devil-worship.

For six years Patricius threatened hellfire and damnation to backsliders, and built up the church in The North through his talents for persuasion and politics. He was particularly adept at convincing noble widows to marry Christ and join monastic communities. Of course, Christ demanded a significant dowry in such cases.

For all his good work he felt something missing. Through all his years of exile he had longed for his home, and yet he had found it so changed that he felt a stranger there. One midsummer night, he dreamt of Christ the King. A huge beautiful golden man, dressed in the purple of an emperor. He spoke sadly to Patricius.
“Brother Catroicos, why do you now rage at peasants for leaving milk for the bucci, when you once watched in silence as an Irishman was burnt alive to feed false gods?”

The next day Patricius wrote pious letters to all the magistrati of the north, politely requesting funds to allow him to begin the conversion of the Irish. The letters pointedly quoted certain verses of scripture relating to the grave difficulties rich men faced in entering into the kingdom of heaven, and were thoughtfully illustrated with a drawing of a man riding camel, to clarify matters for those who might be unsure as to the exact dimensions of such a beast.

 

[Deleted member 5719]

Huh, I'd only ever heard of reincarnation from human to human, usually within family lines. Karma... Well, pretty far, I think.

De Mirabilibus Sacrae Scripturae of Augustinus Hibernicus describes "Magi" in 7th century Ireland who preach reincarnation as birds. But we come back to your initial question, is he misrepresenting pagan beliefs?

I suspect reincarnation as animals was part of belief, at some times amongst some Celtic peoples, basically because of the motifs of rebirth in the mabinogion and Taliesen. Though I wouldn't say it was solid developed doctrine like in India.

 

[Hendryk]

A fundamentalist is born…

We see what you mean, but "fundamentalist" is an anachronistic term. Maybe you should just say a zealot.

 

[Deleted member 5719]

We see what you mean, but "fundamentalist" is an anachronistic term. Maybe you should just say a zealot.

Point taken, I couldn't think of the right word when I was posting.

 

[Dom]

I'm liking your latest little offering.

I really should make an effort to comment more than just "I like" but my knowledge of history is pretty shoddy, considering what site I find myself on...

Nice focus on Paddy though.

 

[Deleted member 5719]

From The dialogues of Master Enechuaglasos, cerca 850 AD.

Pupil: Master, look at the fields, the new lambs are born and gamboling, the apples blossom and bud, and the blessed birds of summer have returned to join their brothers, the faithful birds of winter. The spring in Ireland is a true wonder of Danua! How is it that it came to be so beautiful?

Master Enechuaglasos: Moni Croi! What long and difficult answers simple questions often demand!

But a good master must be patient with his pupil, so his learning does not die with him and may in turn be taught to the next generation.

I have this tale from Bivaidonos, who had it from Cartainos, who had it from Murchadaos, who had it from Casanos, who had it from Cunalughos, who had it from Malighnos, who had it from Lugadonnos, who had it from Cunallatos, who had it from Tlachtgaos, who had it from Ivagenios, who had it from Ivos, who had it from the Dagda, who had it from Cerunnos.

When Danua came to Ireland it was entirely waste. There was nothing, not plant, nor bird, nor animal, not so much as the vilest and most despicable of vermin. A barren prospect that all other gods thought not worth their time.

But Danua can see things as they are and as they were and as they will be, so knew that this place would be her beloved country, her chosen land. So she looked about for ways to make it so. After a while she saw a great mountain, and hit upon an idea. She walked up to the mountain and kissed, aroused and seduced it to such an extent that it became a huge raging bull, all white but for its great red ears. This bull was called the White Bull of Tara, because the base of the mountain still exists, and is the Hill of Tara, where our High King is crowned.

Deftly, Our Lady avoided the bulls’ advances as it grew more and more enraged and lustful. Then with a graceful thrust she stabbed it through the heart with her spear. In its agony, the bull ran three times round Ireland, spilling its blood onto the land and its seed into the rivers and lakes. And from its blood sprang all the plants and animals of Ireland, and from its seed came all the freshwater fish of Ireland. Finally the bull collapsed in Connemara, and that land on which it fell did not receive the benefit of its blood and so must be constantly fed with seaweed so aught might grow.

Danua saw the beauty of her island, and was pleased. So she made hundreds of gateways to the otherworld, and invited her Tuatha to come settle here. And that was at the beginning of the world, but still we sacrifice a white bull at the start of Spring, to ensure Ireland’s fertility.

Pupil: But master, where did Danua come from?

Master Enechuaglasos: Though a pupil must ask questions, he must also learn to reflect on his master's answers. Away and ask me no more questions till dusk.

 

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

In seperate thread to this, one which discusses the future of Britain if Boudicca's revolt was successful, I forwarded my opinion that Celtic Polytheism would survive in some form if the Druidic centre in Ynys Mon/Anglesey was not attacked by Suetonius Paulinus. Its my reckoning that the Celts of Britain and Ireland had the closest thing to a coherent and uniform clerical force whose authority in spiritual matters and secular law was recognized and respected by all the tribes in Britain and Ireland. And that a progressive and centralizing element among the Druids in an independent Britain AND Ireland could create a bulwark against possible Christian missionary activity in the centuries ahead.

I'd like to hear your opinion in the matter, Boynamedsue, if you'll indulge it.

 

[EvolvedSaurian]

De Mirabilibus Sacrae Scripturae of Augustinus Hibernicus describes "Magi" in 7th century Ireland who preach reincarnation as birds. But we come back to your initial question, is he misrepresenting pagan beliefs?

I suspect reincarnation as animals was part of belief, at some times amongst some Celtic peoples, basically because of the motifs of rebirth in the mabinogion and Taliesen. Though I wouldn't say it was solid developed doctrine like in India.

I'd imagine you're right, to some extent. Beliefs changed a great deal from tribe to tribe, with deities specifically for that tribe, for landmarks in their territory and that sort. Rather less survives about their more metaphysical beliefs, but I'd imagine that same tribal dissonance applies, that some believed in human or animal or plant or rock or whatever reincarnation, and maybe some didn't beleve in reinacarnation at all.

Anyway, I quite liked these last two sections, very interesting. Was the semi-rebirth of the old ways in Britain as OTL?

 

[Deleted member 5719]

In seperate thread to this, one which discusses the future of Britain if Boudicca's revolt was successful, I forwarded my opinion that Celtic Polytheism would survive in some form if the Druidic centre in Ynys Mon/Anglesey was not attacked by Suetonius Paulinus. Its my reckoning that the Celts of Britain and Ireland had the closest thing to a coherent and uniform clerical force whose authority in spiritual matters and secular law was recognized and respected by all the tribes in Britain and Ireland. And that a progressive and centralizing element among the Druids in an independent Britain AND Ireland could create a bulwark against possible Christian missionary activity in the centuries ahead.

I'd like to hear your opinion in the matter, Boynamedsue, if you'll indulge it.

The evolution of "the druidry" into an organised, uniform priesthood could have created a bulwark against christianity but it is difficult to see how this would occur unless linked to a new more united secular power. After all, it didn't happen in Gaul.

Another problem is that polytheism is just too damn tolerant! They tended to accept the existance of their enemies gods, and rarely tried to exterminate their worship... even the Romans who otherwise were utter shits.

Monotheism is a very powerful meme, and tends to win its confrontation with almost anything else religious, unless it is an ideology very solidly locked into a powerful state.

My plan is to have Ireland "innoculated" by Christianity between 400-500, developing institutions and beliefs that are sufficiently robust to withstand later confrontations with monotheism.

 

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

The evolution of "the druidry" into an organised, uniform priesthood could have created a bulwark against christianity but it is difficult to see how this would occur unless linked to a new more united secular power. After all, it didn't happen in Gaul.

Gaul was divided between different tribal states and confederations before it was conquered. By the 400's, its indigenous culture was quite marginalized and reduced by the time the Emperors had introduced the new ideology of Christianity. It was a bad time for Gaul when Julius Caesar became Proconsul of Cisalpina and Transalpina. Gaul seemed to be on track to centralization.

Another problem is that polytheism is just too damn tolerant! They tended to accept the existance of their enemies gods, and rarely tried to exterminate their worship... even the Romans who otherwise were utter shits.

I'm persuaded that a brand of Polytheism thats espoused by a solid doctrine and/or a centralized clergy could potentially survive anything.

Monotheism is a very powerful meme, and tends to win its confrontation with almost anything else religious, unless it is an ideology very solidly locked into a powerful state.

Rather than because it was Monotheistic, Christianity's success actually lay with its disciplined and organized clergy, and that such men would ostensibly render their services to a heathen sovereign as de facto bureaucrats and secretaries, in exchange for increased power and trust to operate the civil government.

My plan is to have Ireland "innoculated" by Christianity between 400-500, developing institutions and beliefs that are sufficiently robust to withstand later confrontations with monotheism.

So this possibly Henotheistic Cult of Dagda evolves in the face of Christian missionary activity?!

 

[Deleted member 5719]

Anyway, I quite liked these last two sections, very interesting. Was the semi-rebirth of the old ways in Britain as OTL?

Difficult to say as far as religion is concerned.

In social terms, there was an incredibly quick recelticisation of politics and language. Old tribal groupings re-emmerged (Dumnoni, Cornovii, Damnonii) and new ones were created. The Romanised south of Britain was probably taken over by a tyrant from more Celtic highland Wales (Vortigern, if that is your real name). Fatally, the division of territory between sons took over from primogeniture, a disease which probably contributed more to the creation of Anglo-Saxon England than anything else.

I suspect that Christianity suffered a crisis after the 406 invasions of Gaul and Constantine's withdrawal of the legions. Romano-British Christianity was isolated, and probably took time to adjust to the new situation, leaving space for overt or covert pagan revivals. Aneirin, along with various saints' lives refer to pagan magicians in the 5th and 6th centuries, but were they part of an organised cultic tradition or "freelancers"?

Paganism probably wasn't dead amongst British-speakers until after the fall of Caer Gwendoleu in the 6th century.

 

[Deleted member 5719]

So this possibly Henotheistic Cult of Dagda evolves in the face of Christian missionary activity?!

Initially, you'll have various polytheistic cults... but supremacy will eventually come to one of them. As far as henotheism, Danua would be the one, but I think she's gonna be.... distant.

 

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

Initially, you'll have various polytheistic cults... but supremacy will eventually come to one of them. As far as henotheism, Danua would be the one, but I think she's gonna be.... distant.

I guess the important thing is that some kind of organized doctrine emerges from the native British/Irish religious tradition, instead of having to see another scenario where Christianity inevitably takes over (shudders). Even if this one gradually adopts some monotheistic dimensions, at least it won't demonize its Druidic forebears, and faithfully records the myths and legends as part of its core identity. One affect of having a new rival religion to Christianity in northern Europe would be that Jews being persecuted in southern Europe might experience less oppression in Britain, Ireland, and any other country where this religion of Dagda is adopted.

 

[EvolvedSaurian]

In social terms, there was an incredibly quick recelticisation of politics and language. Old tribal groupings re-emmerged (Dumnoni, Cornovii, Damnonii) and new ones were created. The Romanised south of Britain was probably taken over by a tyrant from more Celtic highland Wales (Vortigern, if that is your real name). Fatally, the division of territory between sons took over from primogeniture, a disease which probably contributed more to the creation of Anglo-Saxon England than anything else.

And the civil wars that resulted from brothers trying to take control of the entirety of the old kingdom.

I suspect that Christianity suffered a crisis after the 406 invasions of Gaul and Constantine's withdrawal of the legions. Romano-British Christianity was isolated, and probably took time to adjust to the new situation, leaving space for overt or covert pagan revivals. Aneirin, along with various saints' lives refer to pagan magicians in the 5th and 6th centuries, but were they part of an organised cultic tradition or "freelancers"?

Paganism probably wasn't dead amongst British-speakers until after the fall of Caer Gwendoleu in the 6th century.

That would make sense, especially as Christianity wasn't likely very entrenched to begin with, as compared with the old ways and the old gods. Lots of old survivals in the new religion, but you already know that.

 

[Geekhis Khan]

This is genius!

It's great to see such a unique TL with such great local flavor.

Consider me subscribed.

 

[Valdemar II]

Massive butterflies as we enter the 6th century, by the 7th the whole place will be a mess!

It's a strange feeling to know that you've killed Charlemagne... a thousand generations of *French schoolkids will love me!

Except without Charlemagde, there unlikely to be any French or *French.