The CSA Millitary

In a scenario where the CSA manage to out last the Civil War and win it's independence, gotten international recognition, and survives to WWII, how would there military history be like?

Rules:
1.No talking about "How can the CSA win" or "The CSA couldn't survive" We're here to focus on the military
2.No talking about slavery, if or if not it could survive in the CSA. The only time we talk about Africans in the racial segregation in the army or conscription (Which to be honest, the CSA wouldn't conscript blacks)

So to start the thread off, here are some questions:

What would their weaponry be like?
What would their military uniform and colors be like?
What would training and drills be like?
What wars would the CSA participate?
Would the CSA send troops overseas to conflicts like the Boxer Rebellion?
What alliances would the CSA join, like the Entente, the Central Powers, the Axis?
Would the CSA desire a colonial empire?
 

nbcman

Donor
Sorry, the questions are almost impossible to answer without knowing the answers described in Rule 1 - Did the CSA win early in the OTL Civil War (1861) or did they outlast the North in 1864? Regardless, a WW2 or even a WW1 analog is unlikely in a CSA victorious world due to the butterflies caused by the CSA surviving. The most likely guess for weapons, uniforms and training/drills is that they would closely match whatever major European power that was the CSA's supporter.

Do you have any answers to those questions to start the conversation?
 
Sorry, the questions are almost impossible to answer without knowing the answers described in Rule 1 - Did the CSA win early in the OTL Civil War (1861) or did they outlast the North in 1864? Regardless, a WW2 or even a WW1 analog is unlikely in a CSA victorious world due to the butterflies caused by the CSA surviving. The most likely guess for weapons, uniforms and training/drills is that they would closely match whatever major European power that was the CSA's supporter.

Do you have any answers to those questions to start the conversation?

That’s why I’m trying to start a thread, so people can discuss it

Also the CSA did outlast the war, and manage to get foreign support, so the Union gave up under Andrew Johnson, because Lincoln was assassinated
 
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Anchises

Banned
In a scenario where the CSA manage to out last the Civil War and win it's independence, gotten international recognition, and survives to WWII, how would there military history be like?

Rules:
1.No talking about "How can the CSA win" or "The CSA couldn't survive" We're here to focus on the military
2.No talking about slavery, if or if not it could survive in the CSA. The only time we talk about Africans in the racial segregation in the army or conscription (Which to be honest, the CSA wouldn't conscript blacks)

So to start the thread off, here are some questions:

What would their weaponry be like?
What would their military uniform and colors be like?
What would training and drills be like?
What wars would the CSA participate?
Would the CSA send troops overseas to conflicts like the Boxer Rebellion?
What alliances would the CSA join, like the Entente, the Central Powers, the Axis?
Would the CSA desire a colonial empire?

The CSA probably is poor. The Civil War has ravaged the country, the seperation from the USA has caused additional havock and the South was never rich to begin with.

WW1 is the first major butterfly: Do the USA still intervene? If not very different world....

Does the Great Depression still happen?

Is WW2 still happening?

Hard to give you answers without a somewhat concrete scenario. My best guess:

The CSA military is chronically underfunded and hampered by the fact that ITTL the USA never really slips into the "slumber" of OTL.

Racial segregation probably leads to "black work battalions" while only whites are allowed in combat formations. Due to the Civil War a military career probably is very prestigious.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
I
So to start the thread off, here are some questions:

What would their weaponry be like?
What would their military uniform and colors be like?
What would training and drills be like?
What wars would the CSA participate?
Would the CSA send troops overseas to conflicts like the Boxer Rebellion?
What alliances would the CSA join, like the Entente, the Central Powers, the Axis?
Would the CSA desire a colonial empire?

  • As to weapons, the CSA has to be allied with other Great Powers to survive. The CSA has limited industrial capacity compared to major European powers. The CSA weapons will likely be similar to whichever Great Power they are most closely allied to.
  • Uniforms did not change until right before or during WW1, so the CSA uniforms will be the same colors as the war, just better fabric, better dies, and maybe a few fashion changes. So Grey with the yellow trim will remain.
  • Drills will stay the same. i.e. 1859 West Point Manuals.
  • Unknowable which wars will be fought.
  • CSA send troops to things like the Boxer Rebellion if it helps the alliance system.
  • CSA will covet land to the south.
  • OTL Entente will not exist. CSA will ally with whoever intervened to save them, so the UK saving the CSA ATL is vastly different from France saves the CSA. So let's run with one example, Trent Affairs saves the CSA. The CSA is stuck with the UK like the Portugal. USA had great relations with Russia. USA/Russia alliance is likely. Handwaivum, Germany still forms like OTL. Austria-Hungary is firm German Ally. Handwavium, Italy still forms. Handwavium, Ottomans still decline and lose Balkins.
  • If you look at this above, you will see OTL Alliances is hard to form. CSA/USA hate each other. This tends to flip UK/Russia into much more hostile regime. France really, really needs an ally. Who is it? You could easily end up with French/Italian Alliance facing off against German/A-H. So say Balkans blow up, but Russia main ally is the USA. USA has a large standing army. Would Russia even force the issue over Serbia? Especially if the UK is likely to jump in on German side after USA invades CSA?
 
CSA is horribly poor and socially stratified. Elite battalions of planter heirs lording it over crappy conscripted infantry who are treated like dirt, with slaves used for labor. Think modern Saudi Arabia but poor as dirt and with crappy tech.

The Union comes back 20 years later and crushes them like an ant. Assuming a CSA alliance with the British, Prussia and Russia are USA allies and help kick the French and British in the fork. USA dominates NA with a powerful and professional army, probably helps Republican Mexico and promises them the Gadsden purchase back in exchange for carving off the west half of Canada and maybe the Russians letting the USA buy Alaska? USA is going to be rich, industrialized, and mad as hell.

End result, USA crushes the incompetent and poorly equipped joke the CSA sends against them, and Mexico and a slave rebellion cripple the traitors from behind. Prussia forms Germany and acts really snooty. Russia either gets gold from Alaska or gets some needed US cash to give breathing room to modernize.
 
Planter heirs are cavalry but used to beating up starving slave rebels with makeshift gear. They are shredded by Union Maxim guns or equivalents. Conscripted infantry then break and run.

Next war is circa 1882 and results in Union victory in about 2years tops. European theater lasts another year before Brits bow out. Union sponsors mass immigration of Northerners and Irish (allies against Brits) to South and Canada. Alliance with black rebels means South redrawn, race relations improved greatly in North. South subjected to occupation and Union-approved antiracist education for 2decades, undercutting KKK diehard activities. Black militias folded into National Guard and used for hunting KKK. WW1 is Germany-Usa-Russia vs. British-austrians-France, the former wins but Russia is left unstable and France goes radical revanchist. WW2 if it happens (I think moderately likely) is USA and Germany and Russia vs. Japan, British, and France. USA wins because unsurpassed raw industrial might.
 
It is probably a given that the CSA from 1865 to 1914 will have even fewer immigrants than those who went to the states of the "CSA" OTL. For at least a good chunk of this time the CSA will still have slavery, and if/when slavery abolished a serf equivalent class. Not attractive for immigrants in large numbers, who for any entry level/low skill jobs will have to compete for slave wages (literally). This means a south where the white population of the states of the CSA are less than they were OTL as part of the USA. So there are significant limits on the size of the CS active military, although I expect "militia" service will be either mandatory or strongly encouraged. No matter what, the industrial capacity of the CSA is going to be limited, I expect many weapons will either be imported or license built copies. The CS navy is going to be small, and very much last in line for funding, especially if there is any sort of alliance or affinity with the UK and therefore the RN seen as the naval shield. Having the industry for a modern navy is going to be hard for the CS, especially as you go from sail to steam to ironclad to steel and the dreadnoughts.

As far as the army goes, I expect in the absence of major conflicts you'll still have a sort of dual system, with small national forces, and most forces even on active duty as state forces.
 

Anchises

Banned
It is probably a given that the CSA from 1865 to 1914 will have even fewer immigrants than those who went to the states of the "CSA" OTL. For at least a good chunk of this time the CSA will still have slavery, and if/when slavery abolished a serf equivalent class. Not attractive for immigrants in large numbers, who for any entry level/low skill jobs will have to compete for slave wages (literally). This means a south where the white population of the states of the CSA are less than they were OTL as part of the USA. So there are significant limits on the size of the CS active military, although I expect "militia" service will be either mandatory or strongly encouraged. No matter what, the industrial capacity of the CSA is going to be limited, I expect many weapons will either be imported or license built copies. The CS navy is going to be small, and very much last in line for funding, especially if there is any sort of alliance or affinity with the UK and therefore the RN seen as the naval shield. Having the industry for a modern navy is going to be hard for the CS, especially as you go from sail to steam to ironclad to steel and the dreadnoughts.

As far as the army goes, I expect in the absence of major conflicts you'll still have a sort of dual system, with small national forces, and most forces even on active duty as state forces.

This makes any kind of CSA adventurism/expansionism in South America really unlikely.

Getting all the CSA federal states to agree to such a venture is unlikely and managing to fund a long term occupation is going to be a non starter.

At a certain point in the 20th century, imho somwhere between 1930-1950, I really doubt that the CSA could even pull of such victories. A bunch of glorified part-time militias is simply not enough in the age of combined arms.

Sure, the CSA might strive for a centralized and professionalized army but funding will be a huge problem.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
That’s why I’m trying to start a thread, so people can discuss it

Also the CSA did outlast the war, and manage to get foreign support, so the Union gave up under Andrew Johnson, because Lincoln was assassinated
Actually, you aren't

You are doing exactly what DOESN'T work. You have a page and a half of reason that were posted in reply to your question as to why "the outcome, not the how" does not work.

Lets look at this thread here

The South could win (with extreme difficulty) on its own if the Army of the Potomac ever completely folded and retreated to New Jersey, leaving DC unprotected. How such a defeat would be possible would have ENORMOUS impact on the post-war world.

The South could win if the European Powers intervened, blockaded the Northern ports, destroyed the Federal fleet, and threatened the North with invasion from Canada. Again, massive butterflies that would change world history. All of those butterflies would have to be addressed. As an example, there is zero chance in this scenario that the United States assists the Entente, either with funding or troops. That alone means that WW I proceeds in an entirely different fashion. That in turn dramatically impacts WW II, might even eliminate it which eliminates the remarkable revolution in weapon design and lethality that marked 1939-1945.

The South wins because the North decides that the entire effort is costing too much. Now you have a divided mid-continent scenario. Slaves will still try to flee to the North, the South will still want to get them back except now crossing into Kansas or Maryland is an invasion and act of war. The South continues with its agrarian, plantation based economy while the North industrializes. At some point you wind up with Civil War 2.0. Depending on when that happens you might see the pace of weapon development speed up so you have early jets in 1930 and supersonic fighter by 1940. In this scenario you could have practical railgun and particle beam tech.

You can just ask a question in a vacuum. Doesn't work.
 
Actually, you aren't

The South wins because the North decides that the entire effort is costing too much. Now you have a divided mid-continent scenario. Slaves will still try to flee to the North, the South will still want to get them back except now crossing into Kansas or Maryland is an invasion and act of war. The South continues with its agrarian, plantation based economy while the North industrializes. At some point you wind up with Civil War 2.0. Depending on when that happens you might see the pace of weapon development speed up so you have early jets in 1930 and supersonic fighter by 1940. In this scenario you could have practical railgun and particle beam tech.

You can just ask a question in a vacuum. Doesn't work.

Let's go for the third scenario, where the North decides that the entire effort is a waste.

In an alternate scenario, in 1865, the South continues to fight because of an alliance of Spain, Prussia, and France, while Britain and Russia was heavily against it (Yes, I know France wanted British support, and Spain was neutral also because of Cuba, and Prussia was invading Denmark, but let's ignore that for now, I'll discuss that later.) To relieve some stress, Lincoln and his wife goes to ford theater, where he is assassinated. Andrew Johnson succeeds him as President. Although heavily against succession, but afraid being assassinated himself (He was targeted OTL, but the guy got drunk and wandered off) he ends the war and allows the CSA to be an independent country.

Quick note, in 1868, after vetoing every law for blacks in the USA, Andrew Johnson was Impeached. His successor purchases Alaska (You may argue about the USA wouldn't have to money to purchases it, but I argue with three reasons:
1. Everything that made the North better than the South, like better industrialization, would still continue
2. The USA lost territory, so wouldn't they look for more territory to one up the CSA?
3.Manifest Destiny
Now given a slightly, better scenario, how will the CSA change their military?
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Let's go for the third scenario, where the North decides that the entire effort is a waste.

In an alternate scenario, in 1865, the South continues to fight because of an alliance of Spain, Prussia, and France, while Britain and Russia was heavily against it (Yes, I know France wanted British support, and Spain was neutral also because of Cuba, and Prussia was invading Denmark, but let's ignore that for now, I'll discuss that later.) To relieve some stress, Lincoln and his wife goes to ford theater, where he is assassinated. Andrew Johnson succeeds him as President. Although heavily against succession, but afraid being assassinated himself (He was targeted OTL, but the guy got drunk and wandered off) he ends the war and allows the CSA to be an independent country.

Quick note, in 1868, after vetoing every law for blacks in the USA, Andrew Johnson was Impeached. His successor purchases Alaska (You may argue about the USA wouldn't have to money to purchases it, but I argue with three reasons:
1. Everything that made the North better than the South, like better industrialization, would still continue
2. The USA lost territory, so wouldn't they look for more territory to one up the CSA?
3.Manifest Destiny
Now given a slightly, better scenario, how will the CSA change their military?
The North in this scenario would, at a guess, in 1885 or thereabout invade and destroy the Confederacy, assuming the war doesn't start sooner because of border incidents. This time, however, the North has four times the South's population, 15x its industrial base, a heavily drilled professional military that is at par with the British army, is better armed, and Northern troops have blood in their eye following two decades of constant rhetoric about the evils of slavery and how the Confederates are right bastards, sexual predators, violate the New Testaments, and don't tip their hat to ladies (and we hear they said something bad about everyone in the company's mother).

With the British as de facto allies the South is cut off from any supply by a much larger USN backed up by RN shipping. We get a war of conquest like nothing that has been seen in the New Hemisphere since Cortez. All surviving political leaders who originally voted for secession and any U.S Regular army officer who violated their Oath are captured, tried for treason and hanged. The South is then broken to heel by a generation of men who lack Lincoln's sense of right and wrong. The first former Confederate state is readmitted to the Union in 1936 following half a century of what comes to be known as de-Plantationization.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Perhaps the league of three emperors will endure!

You could be right. You have the 3 emperors weakly allied with the USA. CSA has a strong alliance with the UK. The UK continues its traditional support of the Ottomans. France goes with the UK. Italy wants both A-H land and Ottoman land. These alliance system might be balance enough to create a Great War type scenario. Maybe with Italy playing king maker.
 
The North in this scenario would, at a guess, in 1885 or thereabout invade and destroy the Confederacy, assuming the war doesn't start sooner because of border incidents. This time, however, the North has four times the South's population, 15x its industrial base, a heavily drilled professional military that is at par with the British army, is better armed, and Northern troops have blood in their eye following two decades of constant rhetoric about the evils of slavery and how the Confederates are right bastards, sexual predators, violate the New Testaments, and don't tip their hat to ladies (and we hear they said something bad about everyone in the company's mother).
I'm trying to come up with an appropriate comparison for the level of curbstomp that will ensue and all I can come up with is a hypothetical war between 1910 Britain and 17th century Albania.
 
The CSA would be a low-end developed nation, and within the US's sphere and a NATO member. Not really all that large or impressive armed forces.
 
The North in this scenario would, at a guess, in 1885 or thereabout invade and destroy the Confederacy, assuming the war doesn't start sooner because of border incidents. This time, however, the North has four times the South's population, 15x its industrial base, a heavily drilled professional military that is at par with the British army, is better armed, and Northern troops have blood in their eye following two decades of constant rhetoric about the evils of slavery and how the Confederates are right bastards, sexual predators, violate the New Testaments, and don't tip their hat to ladies (and we hear they said something bad about everyone in the company's mother).

With the British as de facto allies the South is cut off from any supply by a much larger USN backed up by RN shipping. We get a war of conquest like nothing that has been seen in the New Hemisphere since Cortez. All surviving political leaders who originally voted for secession and any U.S Regular army officer who violated their Oath are captured, tried for treason and hanged. The South is then broken to heel by a generation of men who lack Lincoln's sense of right and wrong. The first former Confederate state is readmitted to the Union in 1936 following half a century of what comes to be known as de-Plantationization.

That's...……...pretty stark. Reminds me of Turtledove's "Must and Shall".
 
Never read it.

I have about 10,000 words of a T/L on the basic subject (not identical, but close enough to hum along).

A quick short story of Turtledove's. It actually wasn't bad....until the end. Essentially, Lincoln is killed in 1864 and Hannibal Hamlin enacts a harsh (by OTL's standards) occupation of the South. So harsh that the its still in effect in the 1930's.
 
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