The Congress of Prague, 1813

Any thoughts on how long Napoleon himself rests content with the deal?


you're right.
he is Ogre Bogey Boney, after all; and you cannot trust those continentals in principle.
only allow me to have a bit of rest to recuperate the proper victorian attitude.
or write it yourself: this is meant to be a collaboration :D
 
Any thoughts on how long Napoleon himself rests content with the deal?

He's been given a breathing space to rebuild his armies, but isn't it only a matter of time before he remembers something or other that absolutely has to be done before the peace can be final? Once that happens, we're off again.

Not from Boney's end. After the birth of the King of Rome, even when he invaded Russia, we was thinking he was too old for this crap. If he could get a peace settlement embracing Britain and dress it up as some kind of victory, he'd be happy. Whether we or the Russians would be is something else altogether, of course...

You mean she wasn't crowned just after Cromwell and sat on the throne up to WW2?
:eek: I am shocked ! :eek:

Actually, in both reality and folk memory, the Regency was really, really differant from Victorian times. The Victorians were prim and proper and repressed and neurotic. The Regency was... well. The nation's elite were yet to be injected with the Solid Middle-Class Virtues of the rising industrial strata. Noel Coward put it best:

You may thiiink, lookingatthe four of us,
Food and driiink, constitutethe core of us,
That may, be but, still you'll, see our,
Names onposterity's paaaaaaage!
You will reaaaaaaad, historiesgaLORE OF US,
Strutting, England's, staaaaaaage!
We represent to a certain extent the ineffable scent of our aaaaaaaage...

We're Regency Raaakes!, and each one of us taaakes,
A personal pride in the thickness of hide
Which prevents us from seeing how vulgar we're being
With-OUT making us wiiiiince!
We're ruthless and ruuude, and boast of a cruuude
And lordly disdain both for mind and for brain;
Though obtuse and slow witted, we're not to be pittied
For WE follow the Priiiiiince!

Ev'ry AWWW-jeh, with our JAWWW-jeh,
Last till dawn with-OUT a luuuuuuull!
We can VEEEN-ture, without CEEEN-sure,
To be noisy, DRUNK, and duuuuuull!
We revel in spooort, Madeira and Pooort,
And when we pass out with sclerosis and gout
All our children will rue our mis-TAAAAAAAAAKES...
We're ROI-stering RE-gency Rakes!

Yeah. It was a differant time under the Prince Regent. Things were done differantly then.
 
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Not from Boney's end. After the birth of the King of Rome, even when he invaded Russia, we was thinking he was too old for this crap. If he could get a peace settlement embracing Britain and dress it up as some kind of victory, he'd be happy. Whether we or the Russians would be is something else altogether, of course....


You'll notice, though, that he turned down the terms he was offered in 1813. Iirc, didn't he suggest that if the GD of Warsaw were dissolved, then Prussia should compensate the King of Saxony with a chunk of Prussian territory including Berlin??

Doesn't sound like he was ready to concede enough to satisfy even the Continentals, let alone Britain. And had his arm been twisted enough to make him do so, it sounds even less likely that he'd have rested content for very long.
 
You'll notice, though, that he turned down the terms he was offered in 1813. Iirc, didn't he suggest that if the GD of Warsaw were dissolved, then Prussia should compensate the King of Saxony with a chunk of Prussian territory including Berlin??

He had tremendous moodswings: the "peace at all costs" thing at Prague reached Narbonne and Coulaincourt after some time of playing hardball. He once flipped his shits at Metternich, attacked his own hat, and then regained his composure and carried on in a very civilised fashion. And he was not fond of the Prussians. I don't remember Zamoyski mentioning that episode, but if he was feeling confidant it wouldn't be impossible.

Also, he was never "offered terms" ultimatum style in 1813: that was in 1814, after Leipzig/

Doesn't sound like he was ready to concede enough to satisfy even the Continentals, let alone Britain.

He never got a proper chance to negotiate with Britain, but since 1810 he'd been holding out for it as his main aim.

He obviously should have cut his losses and conceded more, earlier - some of his closest advisors told him so - but he was deeply (irrationally, I think) insecure about his own position on the throne after the attempted putsch while he was in Russia, and fixated with his own prestige. His natural response to an uncertain situation was to organise an army, march out, and win a battle; but when he'd done that, his terms of course went up. Still, on his return from Russia he was settled on making peace with the Russians as soon as he could.

And had his arm been twisted enough to make him do so, it sounds even less likely that he'd have rested content for very long.

Why not? This wasn't Bridge of the Arcole Napoleon. He was still Napoleon (witness the 1814 campaign), but he was tired, rather chubby, and a dad, and had moaned a lot about having to invade Russia.
 
He had tremendous moodswings: the "peace at all costs" thing at Prague reached Narbonne and Coulaincourt after some time of playing hardball. He once flipped his shits at Metternich, attacked his own hat, and then regained his composure and carried on in a very civilised fashion.


Exactly. And is there the slightest reason to think these moodswings would have stopped once the peace was signed?

Sounds like a racing certainty that within a a year or two his mood would have swung yet again and we'd all be back at war.
 
Actually there is a point here: if this is Tilsit all over again, the fear that could go Borodino-shaped all over again is a thought that is going to occurr to people, even if Napoleon is not intending to do it again
 
Zamoyski's work is nice but several his maps are dead wrong, and the characters are somewhat stereotipized (the sly and self centered Austrian minister, the moody Nap, the sheepish prussian king, the honorable english envoy, the Tsar hearing voices in his head).
I hope he is more accurate regard documentation
 
Exactly. And is there the slightest reason to think these moodswings would have stopped once the peace was signed?

Sounds like a racing certainty that within a a year or two his mood would have swung yet again and we'd all be back at war.

Napoleon did quite a lot of things on a whim, but he didn't declare war. Took him two years after Russia has started thumbing him off to actually take the plunge. Napoleon was not a lunatic, and he was surrounded by advisors and professionals. He thought things over - more and more as time went on, in fact.

Actually there is a point here: if this is Tilsit all over again, the fear that could go Borodino-shaped all over again is a thought that is going to occurr to people, even if Napoleon is not intending to do it again

That's one of the reasons why I think Britain and Russia would be willing to make an advantageous treaty at all: they can always break it later.
 
Zamoyski's work is nice but several his maps are dead wrong,

As are maps in a great many history books including most textbooks I've seen. Unfortunately, publishing houses don't seem to know that if they wanted good maps free of charge, they could just come here. ;)

and the characters are somewhat stereotipized (the sly and self centered Austrian minister, the moody Nap, the sheepish prussian king, the honorable english envoy, the Tsar hearing voices in his head).

Possibly those stereotypes are stereotypes in the first place because Napoleon was moody, Friedrich Wilhelm was timid, Metternich was sly and self-centred, and Alexander was a religious headcase?

All of them are extensively quoted and their deeds cited, and one certainly doesn't gain the impression of an ice-cool and calculating emperor, a suave and fearless king, a bumbling, self-effacing chancellor, or an agnostic tsar from the record of facts.

As for the "honourable Englishman": again, Castlereagh by all available records was a solid middle-class type, by contrast to the rest. The idea that the British are Best is certainly not what he's aiming at: Wellington is Wellington, and as for the rest of them... urgh...

I don't really see how historians can be obligated to put new twists on the old cast when the old cast are real people who's actions have to be accurately recorded.

I hope he is more accurate regard documentation

He's plenty-cited and has lots of quotation - much of that quotation and documentation illustrating his characterisations. One can't draw a clear line between them in diplomatic history. Documents are made by men.
 
Is not an author deciding the images of his own book?
I cheerish my ignorance on the subject.

Regarding stereotypes... I don't know.
It is just that it strikes as unlikely.
And I have read too many one-sided stalin biographies to accept that :eek:
 
Napoleon did quite a lot of things on a whim, but he didn't declare war. Took him two years after Russia has started thumbing him off to actually take the plunge. Napoleon was not a lunatic, and he was surrounded by advisors and professionals. He thought things over - more and more as time went on, in fact.



That's one of the reasons why I think Britain and Russia would be willing to make an advantageous treaty at all: they can always break it later.

I agree with you on this - as Napoleon gets older and more entrenched then his advisors actually get more entrenched with him. He also has some VERY intelligent, or at least strategically aware, people of long-standing including Davout and Eugene.

If Britain makes a good peace then they can restart the war later, maybe 5 years later, but when it suits them

Napoleon weakened militarily will come to rely more on institutions he initially sidelined such as the senate, just like his nephew did

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 

Tellus

Banned
Sorry to necro, but I was googling the Congress of Prague quite unsuccessfully.

I thought a compromise peace that sees a surviving Napoleonic France could have been a great starting point for a "Victoria II" mod.

Napoleon II would be on the throne by 1836, and Id just have to redraw a few boundaries... :) This would be a scenario where the Continental powers decided to make peace and where Britain grudgingly accepted it despite not being entirely satisfied. Franco-British rivalry would thus persist, though Im thinking no more general war between 1813 and 1836, but plenty of opportunities for renewed conflict from there onwards.

Scenario would probably be called "Point de Divergence". Im open to other PODs around that date, but I need a viable balance of power in '36, so it cant be pre-1812, and I want a French Empire, so it cant be after Waterloo. I find victory in the 100 Days both cliché and unrealistic, hence Prague. Thoughts?
 
Sorry to necro, but I was googling the Congress of Prague quite unsuccessfully.

I thought a compromise peace that sees a surviving Napoleonic France could have been a great starting point for a "Victoria II" mod.

Napoleon II would be on the throne by 1836, and Id just have to redraw a few boundaries... :) This would be a scenario where the Continental powers decided to make peace and where Britain grudgingly accepted it despite not being entirely satisfied. Franco-British rivalry would thus persist, though Im thinking no more general war between 1813 and 1836, but plenty of opportunities for renewed conflict from there onwards.

Scenario would probably be called "Point de Divergence". Im open to other PODs around that date, but I need a viable balance of power in '36, so it cant be pre-1812, and I want a French Empire, so it cant be after Waterloo. I find victory in the 100 Days both cliché and unrealistic, hence Prague. Thoughts?

No worries, we welcome fellow gravediggers :D
You're right, Prague could be the point.
pretty everyone wanted the peace at the time, and the armies wouldn't be so overstretched to cause one of the Powers to collapse.
The main obstacle to peace was Alexander (his generals counseled peace, too).
Maybe a bottle of vodka could do the trick
 
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