The Confederation and Perpetual Union

My memory may be faulty, but I thought that the division was only made after the ARW. Before that it was the 'Province of Quebec', which was expanded to include part of the Ohio Country (pissing off the Americans, of course).

No, Thande, your memory is not faulty ;). Upper and Lower Canada was created following the Constitutional Act in 1791. They were united in 1840 to form the province of Canada, then separated again in 1867 to created the provinces of Ontario and Québec, in the Dominion of Canada.

http://www.collectionscanada.ca/confederation/023001-2101-e.html
 
Do I need to quote it?

In OTL, the Impost had eight states vote for. In TTL, due to the fact that requisitions can be forced, the Impost is viewed as an alternative better for the states themselves and does not need unanimity, because requisitions are already allowed in the alt-Articles.

Also in OTL, the Department of Finance was given Congressional authorization to spend requisitioned money, ignoring the 9 states assent by simply passing on the power.

In OTL, military actions against Indians and even against some would-be rebels were authorized by the weak Confederation. Most of the time, actions against Indian nations have not been treated as wars. In OTL, the Confederation enacted statehood legislation that would later come into being under the Constitution. Northwest Ordinance.....

In TTL and OTL, an amendment will be, basically, impossible, and most reform movements are going to find their highest level in the states themselves.

I still have a problem with this. The US would not stay stable under the Articles, because real important decisions could never reach such majority.
 

Japhy

Banned
I still have a problem with this. The US would not stay stable under the Articles, because real important decisions could never reach such majority.
Long Term your probably right. But I could see TTL's Articles working for a few decades before something akin to Nullification comes into existence.
 

HueyLong

Banned
I still have a problem with this. The US would not stay stable under the Articles, because real important decisions could never reach such majority.

After the ARW, you saw a big emphasis on consensus and against faction. That was ruined by the economic problems of the time, forging the factions that developed under the Constitution. This "American Ideal" basically meant one-party rule, with a rather broad party. And it had big support in American circles.

In TTL, the faction that has played the Federalist (i.e. become too identified with non-consensus and faction) is what would be termed under the Constitution the Anti-Federalists. As such, the faction that gains consensus and power is what are the OTL Federalists. Which means a broad interpretation of powers granted to Congress-assembled and a bit of Article-bending.

That is not to say that it won't fall apart or simply stop working for a time. As soon as the Anti-Feds (DR) gain power (which will happen when the NR wear out their welcome and step too far), expect the Confederation government to quit working.

Long Term your probably right. But I could see TTL's Articles working for a few decades before something akin to Nullification comes into existence.

The first decade of the 19th century will be TTL's first crisis. The power to tax has given the Articles a bit longer of a lifespan, simply by helping to avoid the debt and "scrip" crises, and by getting a lot more land sales out west as a result.
 

HueyLong

Banned
How I'm seeing the southwest.....

Franklin (OTL Tennessee, ending at TTL's Pelisipian Western border, much bigger than OTL Franklin)
Transylvania (OTL Tennessee, starting at TTL's Pelisipian Western border, different Transylvania purchase)
North Vandalia (Northern half of OTL Alabama and Mississippi, ending at the River)
South Vandalia (Southern half of OTL Alabama and Mississippi, ending at the River)
Florida (West Florida plus OTL Mississippi and Alabama's coastline)

So, basically, more east-west oriented states than in OTL, which is something I have seen in contemporary political divisions, as well as in later territorial divisions.
 
How I'm seeing the southwest.....

Franklin (OTL Tennessee, ending at TTL's Pelisipian Western border, much bigger than OTL Franklin)
Transylvania (OTL Tennessee, starting at TTL's Pelisipian Western border, different Transylvania purchase)
North Vandalia (Northern half of OTL Alabama and Mississippi, ending at the River)
South Vandalia (Southern half of OTL Alabama and Mississippi, ending at the River)
Florida (West Florida plus OTL Mississippi and Alabama's coastline)

So, basically, more east-west oriented states than in OTL, which is something I have seen in contemporary political divisions, as well as in later territorial divisions.

OTL Vandalia colony was basically W. Virginia.

There's no reason why *Tennessee couldn't have the same name, as the Tennessee river would still bisect it.

I the area north of the Mississippi Territory was briefly called the Yazoo Lands.

Your *Florida should probably be called "West Florida", since the *USA is probably still going after Spanish Florida...

Either that, or "Mobile".
 

HueyLong

Banned
OTL Vandalia colony was basically W. Virginia.

There's no reason why *Tennessee couldn't have the same name, as the Tennessee river would still bisect it.

I the area north of the Mississippi Territory was briefly called the Yazoo Lands.

Your *Florida should probably be called "West Florida", since the *USA is probably still going after Spanish Florida...

Either that, or "Mobile".

Why Transylvania? To place the Transylvania Purchase elsewhere and make the Northwest easier to divvy up into Jefferson's proposed states. Also, remember that these ordinances have tried to give the new states a republican, classical air and *Tennessee does not have that. "Franklin" and "Transylvania" do.....

OTL, Vandalia was applied to pretty much everywhere on the American continent. W. Virginia (first mention I recall was 1861 though), Ohio County, the real Northwest (Montana, IIRC) and I saw one map naming the Southwest territory as such. It may be an AH cliche to include it though, so I am considering other names.

The same classical, Republican air can discount Yazoo too.
 
HueyLong, this is an interesting concept for a TL here. The POD is that The US in Congress Assembled is allowed to tax (impost). From what I've read it seems that this tax is on foreign trade, which shouldn't be too hard to get by the various States and it should be able to provide some money for the Congress government to actually work....but a couple of things seems a bit out of place:

1. If the POD is in 1781 and is basically just that Congress is allowed to raise its own revenue via tax, how is it that Virginia gave up the Kentucky area to US government control? In OTL Virginia ceded all claims to areas north of the Ohio River (which it called Illinois County) with a provision that a set of lands variously called the Virginia Military District or Virginia Military Lands were reserved for its veterans of the ARW - sort of like the Connecticut Reserve. The cession happened around 1784, while Virginia definitively kept control of the land south of the Ohio (over which it had much greater control). In 1784 Jefferson put his proposed Ordinance before Congress, but his proposal was modified by removing references to a ban on slavery and removing the proposed names and boundaries of Jefferson's states (in addition to making a few additions). In your TL, you have a 1785 Northwest Ordinance, but that Ordinance cannot possibly cover the Kentucky/Caintuckee/Pelisipia area because the Ordinance was specifically designed to cover the "Territory Northwest of the River Ohio", while Kentucky/Caintuckee/Pelisipia was south of the River Ohio. Pelisipia/Caintuckee would have fallen under the purview of the Southwest Ordinance of TTL....assuming Virginia had even ceded it which seems doubtful considering that the POD gives no clear reason for Virginia to do otherwise than it did in OTL. If anything, "Caintuckee" (according to wikipedia's article, the various forms and supposed etymological origins of "Kentucky" all ended in either "-eh", "-ee" or "-y", not just "-tuck") might be formed as in OTL but it might be formed earlier than 1792 if reasons can be found.

2. A 1785 Northwest Ordinance would still not cover the whole Northwest since Massachussetts still had a claim in 1785 (although in TTL it probably would have dropped the claim in time for the Ordinance) and Connecticut still had a claim in 1786. At the very least Connecticut would dispute the Northwest Territory's governor's authority in its claimed area and would probably not vote for the Ordinance.

3. By 1785 more member of Congress had begun to disapprove of the idea of having 10 States being formed from any ceded land in the area Northwest of the Ohio as Jefferson had proposed. They had begun moving towards the idea of having fewer States being formed with a higher threshold population for admission (Jefferson's original proposal only required 20,000 people for Statehood but also seemed to require that any future State have the same population as the least populous State in the Confederation already for voting representation -the 1787 Ordinance simplified it to having 60,000 people for Statehood and voting representation). Combined with Virginia's retention of territory south of the Ohio then at most only 9 States could be formed and most likely that number would have been whittled down to a range of 5 - 8 States, with some members of Congress arguing for even less.

4. Arthur St. Clair becomes Governor in 1785. Does this mean he doesn't become a delegate of the Congress for Pennsylvania and become President of the United States in Congress Assembled in 1787?

5. In OTL the only State to cede territory Southwest of the Ohio to form the Southwest Territory was North Carolina and the cession was essentially Tennessee. As stated before Virginia never ceded any land south of the Ohio River (since it had a lot more control over that land than over its claimed Illinois County - Virginia's land south of the Ohio was first organized as Kentucky County before being divided into 10 different counties) and Georgia didn't cede its western lands until 1802.

6. I am not sure how a state of Franklin would develop or if it would even be accepted, but if a Southwest Ordinance covering OTL Tennessee was passed in 1785 instead of 1790 (OTL's Southwest Ordinance was passed under the Constitution instead of the Articles), then it might be possible that a population threshold of 20,000 would be in it (although this threshold might be altered in both the Southwest Ordinance and Northwest Ordinance in new, amended Ordinances passed later on in the period between 1786 and 1787). If a population threshold of 20,000 was in the Southwest Ordinance, then Franklin might qualify (anybody know what OTL's State of Franklin's approximate population was?). The rest of the Southwest Territory might be split between Franklin and any new State (which might well be called Tennessee as Analytical Engine surmised) or it might just be turned into a new State, with Franklin remaining a small State.
 
Why Transylvania? To place the Transylvania Purchase elsewhere and make the Northwest easier to divvy up into Jefferson's proposed states. Also, remember that these ordinances have tried to give the new states a republican, classical air and *Tennessee does not have that. "Franklin" and "Transylvania" do.....

OTL, Vandalia was applied to pretty much everywhere on the American continent. W. Virginia (first mention I recall was 1861 though), Ohio County, the real Northwest (Montana, IIRC) and I saw one map naming the Southwest territory as such. It may be an AH cliche to include it though, so I am considering other names.

The same classical, Republican air can discount Yazoo too.

But the original Transylvania colony was (mostly) in Kentucky...

Tennessee would just be the name of a river... no reason not to use the name...

The only "Vandalia" colony I can think of is the one in West Virginia...

british_colonies_1763-76.jpg
 
One problem is that the articles of Confederation were not adopted till march 1781.
Any attemp to include tarriff or tax power, into the Articles would probally have prevented their passage at all.
 

HueyLong

Banned
HueyLong, this is an interesting concept for a TL here. The POD is that The US in Congress Assembled is allowed to tax (impost). From what I've read it seems that this tax is on foreign trade, which shouldn't be too hard to get by the various States and it should be able to provide some money for the Congress government to actually work....but a couple of things seems a bit out of place:

The POD is that the Articles, when originally drafted, include a provision to force requisitions on the states. Not a direct tax laid by the Confederation government, but simply the ability to demand a sum from a state government and get it.

The Imposts (tariffs) are brought in under an interpretation of this clause, and as a way to relieve the burden of direct requisitions on a state.

1. If the POD is in 1781 and is basically just that Congress is allowed to raise its own revenue via tax, how is it that Virginia gave up the Kentucky area to US government control? In OTL Virginia ceded all claims to areas north of the Ohio River (which it called Illinois County) with a provision that a set of lands variously called the Virginia Military District or Virginia Military Lands were reserved for its veterans of the ARW - sort of like the Connecticut Reserve. The cession happened around 1784, while Virginia definitively kept control of the land south of the Ohio (over which it had much greater control). In 1784 Jefferson put his proposed Ordinance before Congress, but his proposal was modified by removing references to a ban on slavery and removing the proposed names and boundaries of Jefferson's states (in addition to making a few additions). In your TL, you have a 1785 Northwest Ordinance, but that Ordinance cannot possibly cover the Kentucky/Caintuckee/Pelisipia area because the Ordinance was specifically designed to cover the "Territory Northwest of the River Ohio", while Kentucky/Caintuckee/Pelisipia was south of the River Ohio. Pelisipia/Caintuckee would have fallen under the purview of the Southwest Ordinance of TTL....assuming Virginia had even ceded it which seems doubtful considering that the POD gives no clear reason for Virginia to do otherwise than it did in OTL. If anything, "Caintuckee" (according to wikipedia's article, the various forms and supposed etymological origins of "Kentucky" all ended in either "-eh", "-ee" or "-y", not just "-tuck") might be formed as in OTL but it might be formed earlier than 1792 if reasons can be found.

As I understood it, Virginia's land claims were ceded in 1781 when the Articles were ratified by the final states. I will check to see if I'm wrong, but from what I've read, its the only reason Maryland finally ratified the Articles.

2. A 1785 Northwest Ordinance would still not cover the whole Northwest since Massachussetts still had a claim in 1785 (although in TTL it probably would have dropped the claim in time for the Ordinance) and Connecticut still had a claim in 1786. At the very least Connecticut would dispute the Northwest Territory's governor's authority in its claimed area and would probably not vote for the Ordinance.

I will look into this.... thanks for the info. I thought all land claims had been dropped before '85, except in the South. (Georgia's Yazoo Lands)

4. Arthur St. Clair becomes Governor in 1785. Does this mean he doesn't become a delegate of the Congress for Pennsylvania and become President of the United States in Congress Assembled in 1787?

Correct.

5. In OTL the only State to cede territory Southwest of the Ohio to form the Southwest Territory was North Carolina and the cession was essentially Tennessee. As stated before Virginia never ceded any land south of the Ohio River (since it had a lot more control over that land than over its claimed Illinois County - Virginia's land south of the Ohio was first organized as Kentucky County before being divided into 10 different counties) and Georgia didn't cede its western lands until 1802.

As said, I will check on this.

6. I am not sure how a state of Franklin would develop or if it would even be accepted, but if a Southwest Ordinance covering OTL Tennessee was passed in 1785 instead of 1790 (OTL's Southwest Ordinance was passed under the Constitution instead of the Articles), then it might be possible that a population threshold of 20,000 would be in it (although this threshold might be altered in both the Southwest Ordinance and Northwest Ordinance in new, amended Ordinances passed later on in the period between 1786 and 1787). If a population threshold of 20,000 was in the Southwest Ordinance, then Franklin might qualify (anybody know what OTL's State of Franklin's approximate population was?). The rest of the Southwest Territory might be split between Franklin and any new State (which might well be called Tennessee as Analytical Engine surmised) or it might just be turned into a new State, with Franklin remaining a small state.

In OTL, Franklin was seriously considered and, with a larger land claim ITTL, would not be so improbable. Its basically half of Tennessee ITTL, where it was a few impoverished counties in OTL.
 
The POD is that the Articles, when originally drafted, include a provision to force requisitions on the states. Not a direct tax laid by the Confederation government, but simply the ability to demand a sum from a state government and get it.

The Imposts (tariffs) are brought in under an interpretation of this clause, and as a way to relieve the burden of direct requisitions on a state.

As I understood it, Virginia's land claims were ceded in 1781 when the Articles were ratified by the final states. I will check to see if I'm wrong, but from what I've read, its the only reason Maryland finally ratified the Articles.

I think the general agreement by the "landed states" to cede lands west of the Appalachians was why Maryland finally ratified the Articles, but Virginia only ceded most, not all of its lands west of the Appalachians.

Here's some relevant links for most of the info I found:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_territory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Ordinance
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Northwest_Ordinance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_St._Clair
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_Ordinance_of_1785
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_cessions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connecticut_Western_Reserve
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Military_District
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest_Territory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Franklin
http://www.tngenweb.org/law/ordinance1784.html (text of 1784 - seems a bit incomplete to me)
http://www.primaryresearch.org/PRTHB/Dane/Murray/murray.htm (about the 1787 Ordinance and has a facsimile of Jefferson's original 1784 ordinance)
http://www.primaryresearch.org/PRTHB/Dane/Murray/resolution1784.jpg (facsimile of the 1784 Ordinance from the above link)
http://www.jlindquist.com/maps.html
http://www.jlindquist.com/mapsupp1.html (including notes on interesting historical proposals such as "Chippewa Territory", "Huron Territory" and "Ouisconsin Territory"/Wisconsin)
http://www.jlindquist.com/OM2images/jefferson.gif
http://www.rootsweb.com/~vagenweb/illinois.htm
http://www.perrycountyindiana.org/history/pelipsia.cfm
http://www.perrycountyindiana.org/history/images/pelipsia_map.gif
http://www.lib.niu.edu/ipo/1995/iht29502.html (mainly for maps)
http://www.lib.niu.edu/ipo/1995/iht29502cm.html (mainly for maps)
http://www.lib.niu.edu/ipo/1999/ihwt9928.html (mainly for maps)
http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/2001_summer_fall/monroe.html (details how why the USCA eventually reduced the number of states to be formed from 10 to just" 3-5" - everything from part II (II. Monroe's Legislative Actions) onwards is especially important).


HueyLong said:
Chris S said:
4. Arthur St. Clair becomes Governor in 1785. Does this mean he doesn't become a delegate of the Congress for Pennsylvania and become President of the United States in Congress Assembled in 1787?
Correct.

Okay, but I thought Arthur St. Clair had been chosen as Governor in OTL because he had been a delegate and President of the US in Congress Assembled (hereafter I will use USCA for United States in Congress Assembled). I wonder if he will still be able to produce Maxwell's Code (the first written laws of the Northwest Territory).


HueyLong said:
In OTL, Franklin was seriously considered and, with a larger land claim ITTL, would not be so improbable. Its basically half of Tennessee ITTL, where it was a few impoverished counties in OTL.

Okay, but it could still just begin as a few impoverished counties in TTL. If an alternate Southwest Ordinance is passed in the same year as your alternate Northwest Ordinance, most likely its statehood population threshold will be low initially at something like 20,000. The State of Franklin could then be given more of the Southwest Territory (especially if residents in the area wish to join Franklin as opposed to forming their own State). Alternately, instead of a State of Franklin, perhaps the self-declared State of Franklin would become organized as a Territory of Franklin by the USCA in preparation for statehood and the new Franklin Territory would then be expanded to include half of the Southwest Territory. You are correct that a majority voted to admit it (under its original name of Frankland) but that majority was short by just two states (OTL seven voted to admit it when nine states were needed).

On another note, the other river that flows through OTL Tennessee is the Cumberland River (there is also the Cumberland Plateau, but that would probably end up in the State of Franklin if Franklin encompasses the eastern half of OTL Tennessee). Like the Tennesse River, it flows through more than one of OTL states, but is basically shared between Kentucky and Tennessee. In TTL, the Tennessee River will still be the dominant geographical feature in a smaller Southwest Territory...but the Cumberland River could be the other feature which provides a name (especially if the initial population is centred around the northern areas of the Southwest Territory).

Oh, and you also saw TTL southwest containing a state of Florida (encompassing OTL East Florida and the coastal areas of West Florida now in Alabama and Mississippi), however at the time the Floridas were still Spanish colonies (having been regained from Britain following the ARW, the Floridas were first Spanish colonies and then became British colonies from 1763-1783). The US wouldn't gain control over any of the Floridas until 1810-1819 (except the interior area of the former British West Florida colony which was disputed between the US and Spain until 1795).
 
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