The Comet vs The Panther

No, not a WWF match but rather a comparison of two WW2 tanks.

The British A34 Comet Cruiser Tank and the German Panzer V Panther.

In OTL the Comet was introduced into service too late in the war to see any serious action but for the purposes of this WI we'll assume it was in full scale use in time for D-Day. How would the two tanks have fared in combat against each other?
 
Which mark of the Panther? An Uhu Panther with those infrared gunsights (FG 1250) would fare better in the dark than the Comet.
Seeing that in daytime the Panthers were getting munched up by Allied airpower, the German staff would probably have to resort to night deployment. Those sights would help a lot.

OK the IR sights weren't that effective, but then the Germans had the Sd.Kfz.251/20 'Uhu' which were halftracks solely designed to mount some kind of searchlight to increase the range of the IR sights. 1 Sd.Kfz. per 5 tanks if I remember.

I can recall of one Sherman which was knocked out with these gunsights.
 
When I used to do a lot of war-gaming I found the Comet a match for the Panther, both could penetrate each others frontal amour at battle distances (Panther easily, Comet just about) IIRC, so it was really down to skillful usage who won.

Obviously that's not RL.:p
 
When I used to do a lot of war-gaming I found the Comet a match for the Panther, both could penetrate each others frontal amour at battle distances (Panther easily, Comet just about) IIRC, so it was really down to skillful usage who won.

Hmmmm....

How would a more direct British equivilant to the Panther fare?

Say a 40 - 45 ton tank with Christie suspension, a Meteor engine and a 17lber gun in a hull with heavily sloped armour?
 
Hmmmm....

How would a more direct British equivilant to the Panther fare?

Say a 40 - 45 ton tank with Christie suspension, a Meteor engine and a 17lber gun in a hull with heavily sloped armour?

Sounds like the early Centurion apart from the suspension. British tanks have always used (and still do use IIRC) the Horstmann suspension.

Same deal I'd say, roughly similar tanks (early Centurion is just a bigger better Comet really), so depends on the crews skill/battle plan/fortunes of war.

Centurion Mk 3 IMO is clearly superior to the Panther due to gun stabilisation.
 

Thande

Donor
I'm not sure if it's plausible to make the Comet come into service that much earlier; wasn't it only designed in response to the superiority of German tanks witnessed on the battlefield?
 
Sounds like the early Centurion apart from the suspension. British tanks have always used (and still do use IIRC) the Horstmann suspension.

Same deal I'd say, roughly similar tanks (early Centurion is just a bigger better Comet really), so depends on the crews skill/battle plan/fortunes of war.

Centurion Mk 3 IMO is clearly superior to the Panther due to gun stabilisation.

I might be wrong here but don't even the earlier models of Centurion have far heavier frontal armour than the Comet? I recall a max figure of 152mm & a design specification that it should be proof against 88mm hits.
 
I might be wrong here but don't even the earlier models of Centurion have far heavier frontal armour than the Comet? I recall a max figure of 152mm & a design specification that it should be proof against 88mm hits.

Quite right. What I'm saying though is that although the Centurion is a better tank than the Panther it isn't better enough to make it an unfair fight. The Centurion's amour is better but the Panther's better gun cancels that out.

It's a bit like this IMO Comet < Panther < Centurion Mk 1 (but in each case not by all that much).

On Thande's point that Comets couldn't have been ready for D-Day, the British captured Tiger's in Tunisia in 1943 and the Russians had been facing them since 1942, so it's not completely impossible, although it is cutting it a bit close. Something more like a Cromwell with a 17pdr might be more likely perhaps.
 
Quite right. What I'm saying though is that although the Centurion is a better tank than the Panther it isn't better enough to make it an unfair fight. The Centurion's amour is better but the Panther's better gun cancels that out.

Even the first models of the Centurion mounted a 17 pounder AT gun and I can't see how the Panther's 75mm gun was superior to that.
 
How about matching an early Centurion against a Panther II? It was proposed to fit an 75cm L100 on the latter.

IIRC they were planning an 88mm gun for the Panther II, (the vehicle is mentioned further down the Wikipedia article), a 75cm gun would be 29.5 inches wide!
 
Even the first models of the Centurion mounted a 17 pounder AT gun and I can't see how the Panther's 75mm gun was superior to that.

IIRC, because the 75/L70 had higher muzzle velocity than the 17 pounder, armour penetration was higher and it was more accurate.

The Centurion III's twenty-pounder (and definitely the 105mm) would be superior, but that's post-war.
 
The Centurion's stabilization wasn't all that great. Later variants (up to the Mark 6) still couldn't shoot on the move because of a lack of a rotating turret floor and fairly shallow turret basket (loader can't reload properly when the tank's floor is bouncing around.

Also, the Panther's engine is 700 hp vs. the Centurion's 600 hp Meteor. They had similar heights (~3m) and weights (45 tons). The early marks of the Panther were clearly better than the early marks of the Centurion.
 
IIRC, because the 75/L70 had higher muzzle velocity than the 17 pounder, armour penetration was higher and it was more accurate.

There wasn't that much in it:

75mm L/70 penetration at 1000 yards/30 degree impact (APCBC) = 121mm

17 pdr APCBC = 118mm
17 pdr APDS = 170mm

77mm Comet gun APCBC = c.100mm
77mm APDS = c.150mm

APDS was less accurate and less reliable in penetration, so APCBC was favoured unless facing really tough oppposition (like a Tiger II).
 
To keep to the 'Thread' i.e. Comet.

According to B.T. White, British Tanks 1915 - 45
Battle experience indicated the need for a cruiser tank with a gun heavier than the 75 mm., so in July '43 Leyland Motors Ltd., then responsible for the production oCentaur and Cromwell tanks, began the design of a new 'heavy cruiser' to be armed with a new gun. This weapon known as the 77 mm., was a version of the 17 pr. with a shorter barrel and a somewhat lower muzzle velocity. The new tank, named Comet, was similar in layout to the Cromwell and had the same Meteor engine.
The first prototype was ready for test in Feb '44, and after several modifications to the design the production models began to be delivered from September of the same year.
The Comet was not used in action until after the Rhine crossing in early '45. It was very successful, as it proved to be fast and reliable and the 77 mm. gun was highly accurate.
It's all too easy to wonder why the design couldn't have started perhaps six-months earlier!?
However there was an alternative - the Challenger, 1 ton lighter, with 17 pr., gun, max speed 32 mph.
The Challenger was a modification of the Cromwell design with a longer hull and modified suspension, including an extra pair of road wheels. A larger turret, designed and developed by Stothert and Pitt ltd., was fitted, mounted with the 17 pr. gun and a co-axial 0.30 Browning machine gun. This type of tank was used in small numbers in the campaign in North West Europe to stiffen up the fire power of regiments equpped with British cruiser tanks.
The initial design of the Challenger was drawn up in 1942 by the Birmingham Railway Carriage and Wagon Compny, and a toatl of 200 tanks was produced under the parentage of this firm.
Unfortunately no details were given on the service date of the Challenger, with a design date of '42 dhould have been earlier than the Comet. The only other alternative that would be compatable with the time-frame would be the A.33 Heavy Assault Tank - but with a 17 pr., gun rather than the 75 mm!
 
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The 77mm wasn't really a "version of the 17 pdr"; it fired the same projectiles, but had a very different, much smaller, cartridge case holding a lot less propellant, so the gun was also different accordingly.
 
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