The Colossus Of The New World - a worldbuilding project

[Višeslav]

The Colossus of the New World
A Collaborative Graphics TL

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"When we get a good quote to open the TL
It will go here, for all to see.
For now this spot waits, filled with empty words.

It yearns for its moment. Its time to shine.
It's gonna be waiting for a while though.
Did I trick you into reading this?
If so, don't post about it.
Feel free to reply for other reasons though.

So it begins."

- Wenceslaus Velda*​

Introduction:

Alright. Here goes nothing. There have been quite a few large-scale worldbuilding projects on this site, and they all seem to follow a similar theme: the United States (or some part of them) remaining under British rule. Here I want to flip that on its head, and have the US take almost all of British North America in the revolutionary war.

How much of this have you planned already?

Very little. The idea is that I will work with all of you (all 0.5 of the people that are likely to become interested in this) to paint a complete picture of this alternate world through maps, wikiboxes, news snippets, flags, and logos. I will be the final authority on decisions, but I will try to work with what the majority of people here want.

What does the map look like?

Right after the revolution it looks like this:

(light blue is territories, red/salmon is Britain, I've excluded the mosquito coast due to laziness)

The modern map is still a work in progress, as I am not enough of an expert to figure this stuff out on my own, for example I'm not sure how expansion into Mexican lands would go so I've left it out of the US for now.

I am open to suggestions for how to fix the internal and external borders here.

What's the POD?

The plan is that there will be a few related ones. Firstly, British sailors and naval officers stationed in the Maritimes behave worse than OTL, pushing the local population (who OTL wasn't happy with the taxes, but relied on and was largely friendly with the sailors and officers of the British navy stationed there) over the edge. Also the Quebec act is not passed, but taxes are increased a bit further (keeping the English-Speaking colonies as angry as OTL but not pitting them against Quebec since that hatred kind of prevented the absorption of all of Canada). Newfoundland is too connected to Britain at the time to break away and I like the idea of it as the last bastion of British rule in North America. If you think this is too unlikely and have a more plausible suggestion, please tell me.

So how is this going to go?

1. We write up a brief summary of the timeline, since without that, we can't know what the world will be like. (by brief I mean like just covering big global events or events that are big for the US)
2. Begin to flesh out the US
   1. Create a better map of the states and, maybe counties, and the electoral districts,
   2. History of politics in the US (lists of presidents, political parties, evolution of suffrage over time, etc.)
3. Fill in the details - everything from foreign political parties to pop culture, demographic maps and statistics of the US and the world, sports, television, literature, music. If you have a lot of knowledge about the development of the popular culture of the US, you'll be more or less left to your own devices.
4. Since all the cool kids are doing it, once we have a considerable amount of detail, and I get some free time, we'll run a presidential election, with news posts detailing the stances and statements of various candidates, maybe an rped presidential debate if someone wants to do that (I'm not interested in doing it myself, but I wouldn't stop anyone if they want one), and a survey (either a separate thread with a poll or just asking people who they would vote for), which will help us decide and for the fun of it (though ultimately it's in-world plausibility that determines the winner).
5. After that (if we even manage to get that far), we keep going. More detail won't hurt. Maybe after a while we run a German or British, or I don't know, Kiwi election.

Rules:

• To paraphrase my 10th grade civics teacher (this is all I remember from that class): "This thread is not a democracy, it's a benevolent dictatorship". I will ask for your input for everything, that's what makes this fun, but I always have the final say
• Anything that is threadmarked is cannon, anything that is not threadmarked can either be ignored or is new enough that my lazy a$s hasn't gotten around to threadmarking it
• Please run your ideas for wikiboxes by me and the general public before posting, because I don't want you to put in all that effort only for me to tell you that your idea doesn't fit in with the direction I see the world going in (with graphics it's of course different, since I need to see them to pick them)
• don't be intentionally rude or offensive
• If enough people get involved and this actually goes anywhere, I will delegate certain fields to other people
  
• Finally, but most importantly, keep things plausible. please.

Table of Contents:

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• Wikipedia-inspired material:
  • Wikiboxes:
    • Historical Figures: Tipu Sultan
    • Democratic-Republican Party Infobox
      
    • Republic of Canada infobox
  • Wiki Articles:
    • Historical Figures: Santiago de Liniers
• Vexillology:
  • State flags by region - New England
• Maps:
  • United States of America - State Map
  • Republic of California map
  • Animated Map of the South American Wars of Independence
  • Provinces of the UKCA (United Kingdom of Central America)
• History:
  • History: Mexican-American war
  • History | German Unification: Part 1
• Miscellaneous/Other:
  • Quote # 1: George Washington's "Indian Country" Speech

* If you were wondering, Wenceslaus Velda is a rough Anglicization of the name of the historical figure my account is named after (yes, Velda is actually an English last name, it comes from a proto Germanic word related to the Slavic words Vlad and Vlast). It is just a placeholder for the name that makes it look, at first glance, like there is actually a quote there.

 

[Višeslav]

I can't get over this feeling that this thread is going to end in failure. It really scares me.

 

[ETGalaxy]

I do really like this idea, although I still doubt if Quebec would join the United States. Remember, the Seven Years War was only a decade ago, so even if the Thirteen Colonies don’t care about Quebec the people of Quebec wouldn’t join the United States. A Quebec nation akin to the Vermont Republic or the annexation of Quebec via a more successful Benedict’s Expedition is more likely IMO.

Anyway, I really like the idea behind this scenario! The internal borders of the United States look pretty good, and it opens up some interesting possibilities for alternate Anglo-American relations.

 

[Citizen Keynes]

As someone who always loves these types of projects (like the Yankee Dominion) but has never gotten in on one early, I'm excited!

If Quebec is part of the US, then that certainly leaves much more of an early precedent for bilingualism, so we may see immigrant groups with less pressure to drop their native languages, so for example German may be widely spoken in the Midwest, if Germans still migrate there.
Quebec in the US could also lead to more Catholic vs. Protestant conflict, perhaps a stronger and longer lasting Know-Nothings even earlier?

 

[Library of Alexandria]

As someone who always loves these types of projects (like the Yankee Dominion) but has never gotten in on one early, I'm excited!

If Quebec is part of the US, then that certainly leaves much more of an early precedent for bilingualism, so we may see immigrant groups with less pressure to drop their native languages, so for example German may be widely spoken in the Midwest, if Germans still migrate there.
Quebec in the US could also lead to more Catholic vs. Protestant conflict, perhaps a stronger and longer lasting Know-Nothings even earlier?

Yeah, I see a more brutal hatred of Mexicans and a larger German population ittl

 

[Whiteshore]

Can I do European lore?

 

[Višeslav]

Can I do European lore?

It will be more or less based on general consensus, but if you know a lot about European history and/or politics, I would be happy to let you take the wheel on that after the ball gets rolling. If I have Europe questions, I'll remember to ask you. This is my first time doing something like this, and like Citizen Keynes I've never gotten into one of these projects early enough to really contribute, so due to my relative inexperience your help is more than welcome.

Speaking of which, how much would you expect Britain's policy on the continent to change after the loss of almost all of its colonies? Obviously in Asia I expect more investment in the Indian colonies, but do they get more involved in European politics, especially considering that they still hold Hanover. Would Britain become more active in the HRE than OTL? Do you know how active they were there? (I'll to research this tomorrow, but I figured I'd also ask you).

I do really like this idea, although I still doubt if Quebec would join the United States. Remember, the Seven Years War was only a decade ago, so even if the Thirteen Colonies don’t care about Quebec the people of Quebec wouldn’t join the United States. A Quebec nation akin to the Vermont Republic or the annexation of Quebec via a more successful Benedict’s Expedition is more likely IMO.

Anyway, I really like the idea behind this scenario! The internal borders of the United States look pretty good, and it opens up some interesting possibilities for alternate Anglo-American relations.

Good point. The British not passing the Quebec Act takes the successful occupation of Quebec out of ASB territory, but I see how it wouldn't be enough to make the Quebecois want to join the US even if they revolt. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[mikroraptor]

I do really like this idea, although I still doubt if Quebec would join the United States. Remember, the Seven Years War was only a decade ago, so even if the Thirteen Colonies don’t care about Quebec the people of Quebec wouldn’t join the United States. A Quebec nation akin to the Vermont Republic or the annexation of Quebec via a more successful Benedict’s Expedition is more likely IMO.

Anyway, I really like the idea behind this scenario! The internal borders of the United States look pretty good, and it opens up some interesting possibilities for alternate Anglo-American relations.

What if the entirety of the Haudenausaunee League allied with the United States? That would clear a path to Quebec, and perhaps with some assistance from the French, a revolt in Quebec might be successful. And perhaps like Vermont it is initially a independent country that is closely linked to the US, and eventually joins the Union a few years later.

P.S- this might also lead to the Haudenausaunee being treated better by the Americans, and maybe even results in an Iroquois state?

 

[Onerom]

Hey, congrats on starting this project and good luck! I've also never gotten into one of these, but I would be glad to put my two cents (however, outside Spain, I'm afraid other people would easily beat me).

I suppose the French Revolution happens on schedule, does it follows OTL? Without the British in Canada, there's no war of 1812 (or is it a naval one?), so maybe the United States can press Spain to accept the Bravo river as the border of the Louisiana Purchase and get Texas early on. Depending on how is the French Revolution and the Napoleonic Wars (if such exist), we can begin to think about repercussions in Latin America, but I'm of the opinion that this US will grab at least OTL Mexican Cession, if only to compensate for greater Northern representation and appease Southern states.

 

[Library of Alexandria]

No Canadian Colony would lead to an even larger imperative for Australasian colonization, as that'd be the only colony (Draka-style SA probably wouldn't happen). So, would Waitangi also die?

 

[Višeslav]

@APeninSpace

Do you mean does the settlement fail or are you asking if the treaty would never be signed or is there someone/something else with that name that I don't know of?

 

[TheKutKu]

That adams-onis treaty border is very convergent, i'd suggest looking at some of the various proposals to get an idea of how to make an original one, while still keeping the same geopolitical priorities that led to it

 

[mikroraptor]

That adams-onis treaty border is very convergent, i'd suggest looking at some of the various proposals to get an idea of how to make an original one, while still keeping the same geopolitical priorities that led to it

What about drawing the border at the Colorado river, if anyone wants an independent Texas, it would be between the Rio Grande and the Colorado
By this, I'm referring to the southern border

 

[Višeslav]

That adams-onis treaty border is very convergent, i'd suggest looking at some of the various proposals to get an idea of how to make an original one, while still keeping the same geopolitical priorities that led to it

This is very interesting, thank you. I'll probably use one of those for the border between the purchase and a Mexican-American war (if one happens).

See that's the thing, I'm not sure if a similar border with Mexico would be maintained for a very long time (meaning that the border will only really show up on a few maps). I can really see it going either way. The US might get bogged down incorporating Rupert's Land and Louisiana, expanding into Oregon country, and then into the far north (though that might take a backseat to other expansion) and that a different political situation might not result in that crazy slave-state expansionism. However, the US could get into Oregon country quicker than OTL, since they'd be the only power that could claim it and wouldn't have to negotiate a border with Britain, and, since OTL, all of this expansion happened before the Mex-Am war, the only thing that could really shift US interests away TTL is Rupert's land, but they would have got that quite early, and probably start incorporating it right away (which is more or less what the US did with all of their territories OTL, at least once they became majority white, due to the desire to give the people living there representation, and because they don't want to seem like colonizers), meaning that the US would just be bigger/have more resources and win the war more decisively. This is kind of a big dilemma for me going in, because I can't really do anything before I know how big the modern US is.

 

[Onerom]

This is kind of a big dilemma for me going in, because I can't really do anything before I know how big the modern US is.

I would suggest deciding first how the early US is changed by the addition of the Canadas and Maritimes (articles of confederation, constitution, early presidencies and political divides...), and then with the character of this US decide whether they would go for Mexico or not. I feel that with more northern states early on, the urge to establish a Missouri Compromise analogue will exist, and so southern expansion is the only thing to prevent a civil war. Then again, we may consider that more northern representation prevents the slaveocracy from hijacking early power, and thus slavery is contained in a South that does not feel strong enough to enforce its expansion while the north remains less anxious about slavery being forced upon them by the federal govenrnment.

 

[mikroraptor]

My proposal for the US border and (some) of the states

P.S apologies for the crappy hand-drawn borders, feel free to edit them if you like

 

[Višeslav]

View attachment 483519
My proposal for the US border and (some) of the states

P.S apologies for the crappy hand-drawn borders, feel free to edit them if you like

I feel like the US wouldn't significantly change the borders of the original states, and definitely won't expand one of the original states at the expense of another, OTL it only ever split up Virginia and Georgia, but there were more complex reasons for that (so New Brunswick being absorbed into Quebec is unlikely even if it makes sense population wise). Also, Texas has lost most of what was actually controlled by the original Texas Republic, including most population centres, so I doubt they'd prefer that over annexation.

On a positive note, I'm a fan of the colour scheme. The similarly sized but not convergent territorial exchange with Mexico is a nice touch (I had trouble visualizing the Colorado border but it's not bad), and your base map is actually pretty good (the coast is nice and detailed. I struggle to find good base maps). I like the Alaskan panhandle being a state and the upper peninsula's borders look good. I agree with the Idea of reducing OTL BC but not nearly as much. Also, your borders aren't drawn that badly. If that's from memory then you're a legend, but if not, the east coast still looks pretty good, and I wouldn't get that close without tracing from another map.

One question: what's that thing in Sonora? Is that another American Anglo country in OTL Mexico or is it separate for another reason?

 

[mikroraptor]

I feel like the US wouldn't significantly change the borders of the original states, and definitely won't expand one of the original states at the expense of another, OTL it only ever split up Virginia and Georgia, but there were more complex reasons for that (so New Brunswick being absorbed into Quebec is unlikely even if it makes sense population wise). Also, Texas has lost most of what was actually controlled by the original Texas Republic, including most population centres, so I doubt they'd prefer that over annexation.

On a positive note, I'm a fan of the colour scheme. The similarly sized but not convergent territorial exchange with Mexico is a nice touch (I had trouble visualizing the Colorado border but it's not bad), and your base map is actually pretty good (the coast is nice and detailed. I struggle to find good base maps). I like the Alaskan panhandle being a state and the upper peninsula's borders look good. I agree with the Idea of reducing OTL BC but not nearly as much. Also, your borders aren't drawn that badly. If that's from memory then you're a legend, but if not, the east coast still looks pretty good, and I wouldn't get that close without tracing from another map.

One question: what's that thing in Sonora? Is that another American Anglo country in OTL Mexico or is it separate for another reason?

-All of the internals are subject to change, I mainly added them in so that the map wouldn't look empty.
-I was imagining Texas and Sonora starting off as filibuster Republics, but being backed by the US as a buffer zone between a more nationalist Mexico
-Yes that was drawn mostly from memory, which is why the borders aren't that sensical on the eastern seaboard

 

[Višeslav]

I would suggest deciding first how the early US is changed by the addition of the Canadas and Maritimes (articles of confederation, constitution, early presidencies and political divides...), and then with the character of this US decide whether they would go for Mexico or not.

You're right. I think that it's not just the addition of OTL Canada, but also the decreased British presence. The British having only Newfoundland makes it about as easy to trade with them as it is to trade with the Spanish in Florida or the Caribbean. Also, not having to avoid war with Britain at every step of their expansion makes the reconciliation process slower. The US will still likely need British manufactured goods early on though.

I'm gonna say the French revolution goes more or less as OTL, which means that the pro-French pro-British divide in the government might still happen with the Democratic-Republicans seeing France as the US's natural ally, being a republic, and having been an ally in the revolutionary war (albeit as a monarchy) and the federalists fearing France's more extreme policies, having strong links to pro-American French aristocrats, and apparently supporting greater trade with Britain (to prevent reliance on France), they were also fairly religious (protestant), and supported centralized government (so I get the feeling that if Quebec is incorporated early on, they'll hate the Federalists). OTL the French sent an ambassador who interfered way too much in American politics, which greatly improved the Federalist's public image but that is far from guaranteed TTL. The Federalists being less popular could be a problem for the constitution, but their other policies largely developed after the constitution was ratified (since, once the issue they were centered around is resolved they need some other common beliefs to center their identity around), also one extra vote against the constitution from Quebec (in those days it was one vote per state) wouldn't guarantee the end of the constitution. I feel like the "state autonomy" anti-federalists and to a lesser extent the later Democratic-Republicans would be very popular in Quebec.

The maritimes could be seen almost as an extension of New England just poorer, with a larger Gaelic population and having previously had more loyalists. The maritimes can be expected to be a mixed bag, but PEI being small would likely support centralization of government due to its need for resources from the rest of the country, which would be easier to access if the laws were more consistent across the union. I'm really not sure about Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, but if I remember correctly they were fairly underdeveloped compared the US.

Overall, whether or not the Federalists get the Constitution through, they're not likely to do too well later on (much like OTL actually just for different reasons).

What does everyone think of all of this?

 

[Citizen Keynes]

What does everyone think of all of this?

I agree that this could be a problem for the Constitution. I can see a more decentralized system emerging, perhaps the Articles of Confederation being reformed per the New Jersey Plan, given that much of the added territories would be considered small states population-wise and would probably not want to be dominated by the larger states in a centralized system like the Virginia Plan that was revised into the Constitution.
EDIT: Perhaps we could end up with a parliamentary system that way, given that the NJ Plan and the AoC had the executive weaker and elected by Congress.