The Colossus Of The New World - a worldbuilding project

[Višeslav]

So before we do anything else, I wanted to take a closer look at the Jersey Plan and understand how the TTL compromise between it and the Virginia plan (leaning more to the Jersey plan than OTL) would look.
Based on what I've read the plan's main points are

• Congress should remain unicameral with equal representation for all states
• Congress is given control of tariffs, interstate and international trade (in the original, congress doesn't get into this unless someone asks, if they don't the state handles it, but I think that TTL that would not be the case because compromise n' such)
• Congress can tax the states proportionally to their populations (with slaves counting as 3/5 of a person) if a majority of the state representatives agree
  
• In times of war each state will provide a percent of its white male population as soldiers
• Congress elects a "federal executive", a group of people, like a cabinet for 1 year whose term could be extended or cut short by Congress and whose members would not hold the position again (TTL I think a more fixed limit would make sense)
• The Federal Executive votes on judges in the Supreme Tribunal, basically the supreme court except it mainly deals with trying and impeaching government officials and if necessary national-level legal matters
• It has a sort of supremacy clause making the revised Articles of Confederation and any international treaties the supreme law of the land and allowing the federal executive to do whatever is necessary to make states follow
• A citizen of one state can be tried in another under their laws if they committed the crime there
• it says that there should be a policy for admitting new states but doesn't outline one. (I'd assume TTL after a mess in the northwest, a policy similar to the OTL one is put in place for this wherein the federal government (congress) creates a territory or district in newly acquired land whose parts are gradually admitted as states once their (white) populations are significant enough and/or enough states support their admission and lands not owned by the US can apply for statehood)
• Congress appoints judges to the lower courts and congress and the states appoint army officers
• There is a president of some sort in congress but he just presides over meetings, maintains order, and maybe organises committees, like the Speaker of the house today

TTL there would probably be a bit about freedom of religion or at least freedom of cult (basically the right to choose your Christian denomination) and a policy on bilingualism, I assume leaving it up to states but guaranteeing French speaking representatives a translator paid for by the federal government. I believe that economic centralization is a must, and that military unity beyond the states providing the country with soldiers like feudal fiefs would make sense and be useful in the long run. The main point of the NJ plan, especially TTL with Quebec is to prevent big states from treading on underpopulated ones, so there is quite a bit of leeway in these fields in my opinion.

 

[Višeslav]

The northern Georgia territory is a Cherokee Reserve, the NC-TS buffer is the OTL proposed state of Franklin, and the strip of land on Lake Erie is the OTL western reserve, which I show ITTL as a separate state.

Thanks! I did make the Poland map myself

Reserves in the modern day make sense, though I would maybe show them in the territory colour or another shade altogether. They don't make too much sense for earlier times, due to the government and people in general caring less about indigenous sovereignty, but that is the modern map so it makes sense. IDK about Franklin, on one hand its formation is more in line with how the proponents of the NJ plan envisioned the creation of states (frontiersmen form a government, apply for statehood, and get it if enough states agree), on the other it's tiny. I'll make some changes to the map and see how it fits in. The Cherokee would probably be slaughtered TTL as the Georgia government is given more autonomy in its handling of natives. There would be not trail of tears, but there would be genocide instead so that reserve is unlikely. The western reserve as a state is an interesting idea though OTL it was about half the size of what is shown on the map.

 

[Onerom]

Something I have realized is, if we continue with amended Articles of Confederation, does the government have the authority to make the Louisiana Purchase? I think even IOTL there were people who argued Jefferson extralimited in his executive power.

 

[Deleted member 107125]

Can I work on Asia?

 

[Višeslav]

Something I have realized is, if we continue with amended Articles of Confederation, does the government have the authority to make the Louisiana Purchase? I think even IOTL there were people who argued Jefferson extralimited in his executive power.

Obviously the articles would have to be heavily amended for any pro-Virginia plan states to accept it so maybe, remember, the NJ plan was never meant to be fully accepted, it was a bargaining chip. The argument for the government's authority to do it would probably be very weak, but France was giving the US a great deal. It was a vast tract of land with some good ports in the south and complete control of a large river for relatively cheap, so it would definitely have a number of proponents. Also, early on, Americans kind of had a habit of going west when they ran out of space or were in trouble in their home state, so even if it wasn't bought as it was OTL, there would probably be homesteaders there who want to be incorporated into the US a little later on.
On the other hand, I might just be dumb and you might be 100% correct.

I'm actually trying to figure out the most likely way for the NJ plan to be changed TTL before being accepted, maybe you could help me with that?

Can I work on Asia?

Sure. I've looked at your work and you seem to know a lot more about Asia, especially south and southwest Asia than most people. I want to at least figure out how the US government works TTL before looking too much at the rest of the world, but we have some things going on in Europe, so why not get some work done around Asia too.

@mikroraptor I've looked at the Kosciuzcko uprising, and at Tadeusz Kosciuzcko himself and I found out some interesting things. First of all, he was affiliated with the Democratic Republican party, which would be more powerful TTL, negating his lack of popularity with American politicians. This means that Poland is likely to have good relations with the US if his revolt succeeds (if he is not given a high ranking role in government, he may end up as ambassador to the US). Now, Poland is a mostly catholic country and Kosciuzcko was a catholic, so good relations with Poland and his popularity may improve the American Protestant's opinions of Catholics. Then again, the Federalists and their supporters were the main anti Catholic faction, and they already disliked Kosciuzcko.

 

[mikroraptor]

@mikroraptor I've looked at the Kosciuzcko uprising, and at Tadeusz Kosciuzcko himself and I found out some interesting things. First of all, he was affiliated with the Democratic Republican party, which would be more powerful TTL, negating his lack of popularity with American politicians. This means that Poland is likely to have good relations with the US if his revolt succeeds (if he is not given a high ranking role in government, he may end up as ambassador to the US). Now, Poland is a mostly catholic country and Kosciuzcko was a catholic, so good relations with Poland and his popularity may improve the American Protestant's opinions of Catholics. Then again, the Federalists and their supporters were the main anti Catholic faction, and they already disliked Kosciuzcko.

That is pretty much what I was thinking, especially since it seems that the Federalists are a lot weaker ITTL. However, that seems like it might mean that Russia, Austria, and Prussia are probably not going to be too friendly to the United States.

Do you think that Kosciuszko would remain in a leadership role in the new government in Poland, or would you prefer that he steps down?

 

[Višeslav]

That is pretty much what I was thinking, especially since it seems that the Federalists are a lot weaker ITTL. However, that seems like it might mean that Russia, Austria, and Prussia are probably not going to be too friendly to the United States.

Do you think that Kosciuszko would remain in a leadership role in the new government in Poland, or would you prefer that he steps down?

I don't mind either. I didn't plan anything for Poland, so pick whatever you think he as an individual would have been more likely to do.

 

[Citizen Keynes]

Alright so it seems we are agreed that the Federalists are going to be much weaker, probably never getting into power TTL though they may survive longer without the War of 1812. As such, here is my idea for how things go politically from there. Given the unpopularity of the Federalists, and the nature of TTL's US, I think that the gradual absorption of Federalist ideas by Dem-Reps during the Era of Good Feelings that occurred OTL wouldn't happen, but rather they remain content with a very limited government. Then, my idea is that a sort of alt-Jacksonian, populist, nationalist movement begins growing in the 1830s, forming a party and becoming the opposition to the *Jeffersonian Republicans. These *Jacksonians could be the ones who expand suffrage to all white males, try to expand westward, and later implement proportional representation.
I also think this works because I can see Quebec being both small government (edit: as in anti-centralization) and anti-expansionist, and thus it makes sense to have a more nationalistic movement that OTL 17th century Democrats championing expansion.
Edit: I could see Louis McLane (Federalist-turned-Jacksonian) being an important figure in this party, as well as some Anti-Masons (similar policies as Federalists and Whigs, but more populist).

 

[Višeslav]

Ok, so I've decided to compare Virginia and New Jersey plans to figure out a reasonable compromise for ttl.

The Virginia plan wants a bicameral legislature, with one chamber being elected by the people and then voting on members of the second chamber from a pool of candidates provided by state legislatures. There is of course the controversial call for representation by population. The Virginia plan has a better division of powers, also creating a Supreme Tribunal, lesser courts, and an executive office (held by an individual rather than a group as per the NJ plan) as well as a council of revision consisting of the federal executive and some supreme court judges which can vote to veto the legislative branch's decisions. The Legislature and/or the council of revision can both veto state decisions if they are deemed unconstitutional.

These are the Wikipedia graphics for each proposal (green is the judiciary branch, purple the executive, and blue the legislative):


New Jersey:

Virginia plan:

So Considering that TTL there are more small states, I think we agree that there would be a unicameral legislature with equal representation for all states at least to begin with (with reform coming later). There would be multiple representatives, 2-7 per state, based on population, but states would vote as one block. I think that there would be a federal executive committee or council selected by congress for a term of 4 or 5 years that functions like a cabinet, with each member having a specific field that they're in charge of (managing the fields that the federal government controls, so finance, foreign affairs, interstate affairs like border disputes, defence in other words a department of foreign affairs, a department of the treasury, a department of the interior, and a defence department). I like the idea of a single head of state though, so I think that there should be some sort of head of the executive branch (I don't want to use the term chief executive). I think that the Federal Executive council would select supreme court judges, who would serve for life, the way the president picks judges OTL. I see states appointing judges for lower courts. The states are responsible for fielding an army in times of war, but training and equipment are standardized across the country and run by the federal government. A permanent standing army would be under the control of the federal government. State governments can request the removal of executives, which Congress will then vote on. State governments appoint lower military officers (below the rank of colonel) while congress appoints higher ones. Congress is lead by president who is similar to the OTL speaker of the house, though I'm not sure if it would make sense for the prez to be the head of state or if some head of the executive council is better. There would probably be some kind of bill of rights but it would be vague. Beyond the constitution, states control their internal laws, and importantly can decide whether to have a second official language at the state level (this is for Quebec)

So this leaves us with a relatively decentralized federation or maybe more of a confederation run by a unicameral legislature with a head of state with limited power.

If the president of congress is the head of state, then we get a system where the head of state isn't elected by the people but is the leader of the majority party in congress, like the Canadian PM OTL, which is an idea i'm starting to like.

What do y'all think? What corrections do you have (gotta keep this sh*t plausible)?​

 

[Citizen Keynes]

Ok, so I've decided to compare Virginia and New Jersey plans to figure out a reasonable compromise for ttl.​

​

I'm a bit confused by these diagrams. Is the Executive in the VA Plan part of the Council of Revision? If so that could be merged with the NJ Plan's multi-person executive.

 

[mikroraptor]

Ok, so I've decided to compare Virginia and New Jersey plans to figure out a reasonable compromise for ttl.

The Virginia plan wants a bicameral legislature, with one chamber being elected by the people and then voting on members of the second chamber from a pool of candidates provided by state legislatures. There is of course the controversial call for representation by population. The Virginia plan has a better division of powers, also creating a Supreme Tribunal, lesser courts, and an executive office (held by an individual rather than a group as per the NJ plan) as well as a council of revision consisting of the federal executive and some supreme court judges which can vote to veto the legislative branch's decisions. The Legislature and/or the council of revision can both veto state decisions if they are deemed unconstitutional.

These are the Wikipedia graphics for each proposal (green is the judiciary branch, purple the executive, and blue the legislative):


New Jersey:

View attachment 484115

Virginia plan:

View attachment 484116

So Considering that TTL there are more small states, I think we agree that there would be a unicameral legislature with equal representation for all states at least to begin with (with reform coming later). There would be multiple representatives, 2-7 per state, based on population, but states would vote as one block. I think that there would be a federal executive committee or council selected by congress for a term of 4 or 5 years that functions like a cabinet, with each member having a specific field that they're in charge of (managing the fields that the federal government controls, so finance, foreign affairs, interstate affairs like border disputes, defence in other words a department of foreign affairs, a department of the treasury, a department of the interior, and a defence department). I like the idea of a single head of state though, so I think that there should be some sort of head of the executive branch (I don't want to use the term chief executive). I think that the Federal Executive council would select supreme court judges, who would serve for life, the way the president picks judges OTL. I see states appointing judges for lower courts. The states are responsible for fielding an army in times of war, but training and equipment are standardized across the country and run by the federal government. A permanent standing army would be under the control of the federal government. State governments can request the removal of executives, which Congress will then vote on. State governments appoint lower military officers (below the rank of colonel) while congress appoints higher ones. Congress is lead by president who is similar to the OTL speaker of the house, though I'm not sure if it would make sense for the prez to be the head of state or if some head of the executive council is better. There would probably be some kind of bill of rights but it would be vague. Beyond the constitution, states control their internal laws, and importantly can decide whether to have a second official language at the state level (this is for Quebec)

So this leaves us with a relatively decentralized federation or maybe more of a confederation run by a unicameral legislature with a head of state with limited power.

If the president of congress is the head of state, then we get a system where the head of state isn't elected by the people but is the leader of the majority party in congress, like the Canadian PM OTL, which is an idea i'm starting to like.

What do y'all think? What corrections do you have (gotta keep this sh*t plausible)?​

Interesting. I'm not sure about the whole
"Party majority leader becomes the President" concept though



The United States annexes Canada, only to become...Canada

 

[Citizen Keynes]

Interesting. I'm not sure about the whole
"Party majority leader becomes the President" concept though

Well the closest thing to an executive in the Articles of Confederation was elected by Congress, and in both of these plans the executive is elected by Congress, so it seemed to me like it makes the most sense that the AoC gets revised, and the "President of Congress" position is just given more powers.

 

[mikroraptor]

Does anyone have any plans for Latin America? I don't have much, but I thought that a surviving Peru-Bolivia could be Interesting. Also the British are probably going to want to hold on to their remaining colonies in America even more, so maybe more British influence in Central America?

 

[Višeslav]

Interesting. I'm not sure about the whole
"Party majority leader becomes the President" concept though

The United States annexes Canada, only to become...Canada

Seriously though I didn't suggest it for that reason but it's a good point.

 

[Višeslav]

Well the closest thing to an executive in the Articles of Confederation was elected by Congress, and in both of these plans the executive is elected by Congress, so it seemed to me like it makes the most sense that the AoC gets revised, and the "President of Congress" position is just given more powers.

That makes more sense. I guess I was just tied to the OTL idea of a head of state that's elected or at least whose appointment depends on the popular vote.

 

[Oliveia]

The main problem is that, in essence, it's... hard to reconcile the two Plans. You can't have different number of seats based off of state population because that's mostly the Virginia Plan, and Jerseyites wouldn't like that because that favors the big states. The big states wouldn't not want their large populations to play some role in government. It's all confusing and, honestly, compromise would be incredibly difficult without creating a bicameral legislature.

 

[mikroraptor]

The main problem is that, in essence, it's... hard to reconcile the two Plans. You can't have different number of seats based off of state population because that's mostly the Virginia Plan, and Jerseyites wouldn't like that because that favors the big states. The big states wouldn't not want their large populations to play some role in government. It's all confusing and, honestly, compromise would be incredibly difficult without creating a bicameral legislature.

What about a Congres by population, but a "Executive Council" or something, led by the President of Congress, with one representative per state?
Essentially a lower and upper houses of a Congress. Call it the "insert state name here compromise" and you might have a somewhat functional government

 

[Višeslav]

Does anyone have any plans for Latin America? I don't have much, but I thought that a surviving Peru-Bolivia could be Interesting. Also the British are probably going to want to hold on to their remaining colonies in America even more, so maybe more British influence in Central America?

Interesting, I was actually thinking of increased British activity in central America as a possibility. How did you plan to keep Peru-Bolivia together? I know next to nothing about it, so I want to know.

 

[Višeslav]

What about a Congres by population, but a "Executive Council" or something, led by the President of Congress, with one representative per state?
Essentially a lower and upper houses of a Congress. Call it the "insert state name here compromise" and you might have a somewhat functional government

That's basically what happened OTL, just the house of representatives and the senate

 

[Oliveia]

The Miskito Kingdom might be directly annexed into the UK, considering that it was technically an independent state under British influence.