Hello everyone, I have been building an alternate story a few months ago in which Brazil became a great power comparable to the power of France during the 19th and 20th century. In this world Brazil industrialized very early being one of the first places to industrialize, after its independence annexed half of the Portuguese empire and from its independence begins a period of massive territorial expansion in south america.

The point of divergence begins around 1200 to 1300 in which Portugal annexes the region of Galicia before beginning the great navigations, thus Galicia integrates the Portuguese nation centuries before the beginning of colonialism; but what I am having trouble with is finding the exact period in which Portugal could have annexed Galicia before starting its empire and that Galicia is integrated into Portuguese culture, becoming just another region of Portugal. Thus Portugal annexing Galicia would increase its territory by about 30%, meaning that the Portuguese empire would be larger and thus would lead to a larger Brazil, since we would have more Portuguese to colonize.


Another difficulty I am having is finding a justification for Portugal (and later independent Brazil) to show interest in another region of South America besides the Plata region, leading Brazil to acquire a coast in the Pacific (I know that unlike North America South America has the Andes which is a geographical challenge).


After much analysis of South America's colonial history and the history of Portugal and Spain I came to the conclusion that:

• The best region for Brazil to expand to pacific in this story would be the region of Bolivia and northern Chile since this region even with the Andes in the middle is the least populated region between Brazil and the pacific, and if you look This map below shows the westward expansion of Brazil in that direction.


• The other point I noticed is that much of the Brazilian expansion beyond the Tordesillas treaty came during the Iberian union, so I would like to know that Portugal with Galicia during the Iberian union would expand further than it expanded in our line. from time, as you can see on this map before and after Brazil (all of this came because during the Iberian Union the Sao Paulo bandeirantes in Brazil started expeditions that caused Brazil to double the size of its territory as)

bandeirantes.png


So I ask a question how Portugal with Galicia, centuries before the beginning of his empire would justify the Portuguese and later Brazilian interest in this region of South America, leading Brazil to this territory today?

br.png
 
The scenario is not without merit. For if a United Kingdom which includes Brazil would be looking for opportunities to expand in South America during the imperialism period. Then it makes sense to take Advantage of instability and problems in the other sA countries.

Therefore Brazil could lead and direct expansion in rest of South America.
 
The scenario is not without merit. For if a United Kingdom which includes Brazil would be looking for opportunities to expand in South America during the imperialism period. Then it makes sense to take Advantage of instability and problems in the other sA countries.

Therefore Brazil could lead and direct expansion in rest of South America.
I understand your point, but in this case I still have in my scenario a problem that is how and when Portugal could integrate Galicia into the Portuguese nation before starting colonization. Do you have any suggestions regarding this?
 
I understand your point, but in this case I still have in my scenario a problem that is how and when Portugal could integrate Galicia into the Portuguese nation before starting colonization. Do you have any suggestions regarding this?
That is actually an easy one. Our first king d Alfonso Henriques conquered almost 3/4 of Galicia from Leão while Portugal also battled the Arab forces to the south. But was forced to give them back when his son, the heir was captured in Portuguese attempt to capture cidade Rodrigue.

Therefore have Portuguese win battle of Rodrigue and in subsequent peace treaty with Leao return the city for rest of Galicia. So we have a portugal and Galicia Union from beginning.
 
That is actually an easy one. Our first king d Alfonso Henriques conquered almost 3/4 of Galicia from Leão while Portugal also battled the Arab forces to the south. But was forced to give them back when his son, the heir was captured in Portuguese attempt to capture cidade Rodrigue.

Therefore have Portuguese win battle of Rodrigue and in subsequent peace treaty with Leao return the city for rest of Galicia. So we have a portugal and Galicia Union from beginning.

So I could say it that way. That after conquest ¾ of Galicia, Portugal returned Ciudad Rodrigo in exchange for Galicia, right?
If you can take another question from me:
What was the Treaty and the name of the treaty that could have officially given Galicia to Portugal?
Do you think the name of this new nation can still be Portugal or has to be Portugaliza?
And the most important question: Would Galicia in Portugal have a real impact during the colonization of Brazil? (in relation to resources, population and etc.)
 
So I could say it that way. That after conquest ¾ of Galicia, Portugal returned Ciudad Rodrigo in exchange for Galicia, right?
If you can take another question from me:
What was the Treaty and the name of the treaty that could have officially given Galicia to Portugal?
Do you think the name of this new nation can still be Portugal or has to be Portugaliza?
And the most important question: Would Galicia in Portugal have a real impact during the colonization of Brazil? (in relation to resources, population and etc.)
The story could go two ways.

1) the Portuguese sign a peace treaty (cidade Rodrigo treaty) formalizing Portuguese control over Galicia and returning cidade Rodrigo to Leao.

2) portuguese follow up their conquest of Cidade Rodrigo with conquest of remaking part of Galicia. Take Badajoz also.

name

Kingdom of Portugal, Galicia and Algarve.

as for resources in conquering or settling Brazil not really. I always envision Galicians more adept at settling and colonizing new foundland and Atlantic Canada.

What a stronger Portugal will provide is the resources to colonize and keep its lands. More people, even North America colony with access to the Grand Banks, rich lumber would be a boon to Portuguese finances abd navy.

remember that a Portuguese South America you envision will be a gradual process.

1) do not sign any treaty with Spain limiting Portuguese in the Americas. Be good if Newfoundland and gulf of st Lawrence colonies already exist by 1490 só Spain can’t claim all the Americas. (Can be secret).
2) stronger Portugal no expulsion of Jews (that just wrecked the country and provide huge fortune to both holland and Ottoman Empire.
3) no iberian Union
4) the Portuguese priority will be India and Far East at first that where $$ is. Then Brazil start providing $$ in sugar and tobacco plantations slowly build up Brazil so that by 1700 it stretches from Amazon to Rio de la plata.
5) between 1700-1800 expand Brazil inland making sure you have access to both rivers since they provide only reasonable inland (deep inland).
6) during seven year war or equivalent fight Spain and conquer more inland including Peru till you reach pacific.
7) make the growth of Brazil organic and spurred by Brazilians

8) make sure you in middle of 18th century make Brazil part of kingdom and give them autonomy snd ability to build industry. Stop treating them as colony otherwise we have another (ARW). That goes for Portuguese North America.

hope it helps.
 
The story could go two ways.

1) the Portuguese sign a peace treaty (cidade Rodrigo treaty) formalizing Portuguese control over Galicia and returning cidade Rodrigo to Leao.

2) portuguese follow up their conquest of Cidade Rodrigo with conquest of remaking part of Galicia. Take Badajoz also.

name

Kingdom of Portugal, Galicia and Algarve.

as for resources in conquering or settling Brazil not really. I always envision Galicians more adept at settling and colonizing new foundland and Atlantic Canada.

What a stronger Portugal will provide is the resources to colonize and keep its lands. More people, even North America colony with access to the Grand Banks, rich lumber would be a boon to Portuguese finances abd navy.

remember that a Portuguese South America you envision will be a gradual process.

1) do not sign any treaty with Spain limiting Portuguese in the Americas. Be good if Newfoundland and gulf of st Lawrence colonies already exist by 1490 só Spain can’t claim all the Americas. (Can be secret).
2) stronger Portugal no expulsion of Jews (that just wrecked the country and provide huge fortune to both holland and Ottoman Empire.
3) no iberian Union
4) the Portuguese priority will be India and Far East at first that where $$ is. Then Brazil start providing $$ in sugar and tobacco plantations slowly build up Brazil so that by 1700 it stretches from Amazon to Rio de la plata.
5) between 1700-1800 expand Brazil inland making sure you have access to both rivers since they provide only reasonable inland (deep inland).
6) during seven year war or equivalent fight Spain and conquer more inland including Peru till you reach pacific.
7) make the growth of Brazil organic and spurred by Brazilians

8) make sure you in middle of 18th century make Brazil part of kingdom and give them autonomy snd ability to build industry. Stop treating them as colony otherwise we have another (ARW). That goes for Portuguese North America.

hope it helps.
Very interesting this scenario of yours.
But from what I understand you are suggesting that Portugal should not unite with Spain and then break free as in our timeline, so do you find it possible for Brazil to expand westward and into the Pacific Ocean without the Iberian Union?
 
Very interesting this scenario of yours.
But from what I understand you are suggesting that Portugal should not unite with Spain and then break free as in our timeline, so do you find it possible for Brazil to expand westward and into the Pacific Ocean without the Iberian Union?
Iberian Union was a disaster. We had our navy (one of the largest in world) destroyed in failed attempt to invade England. We became targets for Spain’s enemies and starved of resources to defend ourselves. Spain became increasingly involved in European wars and the Portuguese suffered As a result. The independence war of 1640 resulted in US loosing territory both to Spain and others. So yeah get away from it, don’t walk run as fast as you can.

a stronger Portugal could standout better to Spain and not be bullied around. So it could slowly expand at Spain’s expense.
 
Iberian Union was a disaster. We had our navy (one of the largest in world) destroyed in failed attempt to invade England. We became targets for Spain’s enemies and starved of resources to defend ourselves. Spain became increasingly involved in European wars and the Portuguese suffered As a result. The independence war of 1640 resulted in US loosing territory both to Spain and others. So yeah get away from it, don’t walk run as fast as you can.

a stronger Portugal could standout better to Spain and not be bullied around. So it could slowly expand at Spain’s expense.

I'm still working on the details of my timeline, but overall it would be:
• At the time of the formation of Portugal, Portugal annexes Galicia and other parties on the border with Castile.
• Begins colonization similar to the notion of timeline.
• Regarding the Jews in Portugal I haven't thought about them yet, but in the case of Brazil I thought about making Brazil a free colony for any religion thus attracting the Jews and Protestants.
• Brazil since the beginning of its colonization has a centralized government and is established as a viceroyalty, so over the centuries Brazil has acquired more and more autonomy.
• By the early 1700s, Brazil with a larger immigrant population expanded further and further inland.
• Napoleon still happens, causing the royal family to come to Brazil, providing the same to a kingdom on the same level as Portugal, then the Portuguese want Brazil to be a colony again and it then proclaims independence just like our timeline.
• Newly independent Brazil is a very strong and stable nation, yet Portugal does not recognize Brazil's independence, so Brazil uses its power to invade Portugal; obliging him to sign a treaty that recognizes the independence of Brazil and transfers half of his empire to Brazil. Thus Brazil in a few years already has a colonial empire
 
I'm still working on the details of my timeline, but overall it would be:
• At the time of the formation of Portugal, Portugal annexes Galicia and other parties on the border with Castile.
• Begins colonization similar to the notion of timeline.
• Regarding the Jews in Portugal I haven't thought about them yet, but in the case of Brazil I thought about making Brazil a free colony for any religion thus attracting the Jews and Protestants.
• Brazil since the beginning of its colonization has a centralized government and is established as a viceroyalty, so over the centuries Brazil has acquired more and more autonomy.
• By the early 1700s, Brazil with a larger immigrant population expanded further and further inland.
• Napoleon still happens, causing the royal family to come to Brazil, providing the same to a kingdom on the same level as Portugal, then the Portuguese want Brazil to be a colony again and it then proclaims independence just like our timeline.
• Newly independent Brazil is a very strong and stable nation, yet Portugal does not recognize Brazil's independence, so Brazil uses its power to invade Portugal; obliging him to sign a treaty that recognizes the independence of Brazil and transfers half of his empire to Brazil. Thus Brazil in a few years already has a colonial empire
Interesting, good luck.

few items read more on colonial Brazil. It was very decentralized for centuries. Only the arrival of royal family centralized. If no royal family then Brazil break apart like Spanish colonies. Remember that it was faster to sail from Maranhão to Lisbon than to Rio.

What is the purpose of your timeline, for Brazil to be independent and expand to pacific or be part of Portuguese empire and the empire expand to pacific?

your answer will determine how you proceed with the TL. Remember why US and Brazil became independent. If Brazil becomes too different from rest of Portugal then it will become independent.

My last piece of advice is to read a lot Nd research. You have a good year of two ahead of you to research and write before you post.
 
Interesting, good luck.

few items read more on colonial Brazil. It was very decentralized for centuries. Only the arrival of royal family centralized. If no royal family then Brazil break apart like Spanish colonies. Remember that it was faster to sail from Maranhão to Lisbon than to Rio.

What is the purpose of your timeline, for Brazil to be independent and expand to pacific or be part of Portuguese empire and the empire expand to pacific?

your answer will determine how you proceed with the TL. Remember why US and Brazil became independent. If Brazil becomes too different from rest of Portugal then it will become independent.

My last piece of advice is to read a lot Nd research. You have a good year of two ahead of you to research and write before you post.

Thanks for the advice.
I chose a Brazil Empire that annexes most of the Portuguese empire after its independence.
Here is the map of the Brazilian colonial empire to its fullest extent (just after WW1)
maior extenção do imperio unido.png
 
Thanks for the advice.
I chose a Brazil Empire that annexes most of the Portuguese empire after its independence.
Here is the map of the Brazilian colonial empire to its fullest extent (just after WW1)View attachment 510717
You are going be be fighting Britain then for that was prevented iotl. The Europeans and Britain the most powerful of them are not going to allow a two but little rebel country to play imperial game. That is reserved for the Europeans only.

It! Took the Americans over 100 years to be able to become imperialist themselves.
 
You are going be be fighting Britain then for that was prevented iotl. The Europeans and Britain the most powerful of them are not going to allow a two but little rebel country to play imperial game. That is reserved for the Europeans only.

It! Took the Americans over 100 years to be able to become imperialist themselves.

Well, the fight will be fun !LOL!. And I am already assembling all the pieces to make this story as true as possible, we will see how it will progress in the coming months.
 
Well, the fight will be fun !LOL!. And I am already assembling all the pieces to make this story as true as possible, we will see how it will progress in the coming months.
Ok good luck for Brazil will need it. You are going up against the largest empire at its zenith.
 
How the heck will Portugal take Peru? Bolivia is ASB. Peru is a step too far. You are taking the MOST valuable Spanish colony. Spain will defend it by taking Lisbon.
 
There are many holes inveje proposed TL for the map is not well thought out.

the mistake some writers (which I did at beginning when I joined the community over 10 years. To think I change my country but rest stay the same.

My recommendation is to start from the POD where Portugal get Galicia. From there built it forward. Research and determine what happens.

Does Portugal (Galicia) get Newfoundland and settle at Lawrence? Where the French end up New York?

do the Dutch become colonizers?

how much of India does Portugal get?

what happens in Spain? Does Columbus still sail integrity behalf?

Do the Portuguese conquer more of North Africa?

so far we only got to middle of 16th century.

way too soon to design a map?

Without Iberian union Portugal keeps Tangier’s, Bombay and Ceuta plus North Africa and western Indian coast.

so unfortunately there no way to correlate the TL to the map.

Why is there a USA? Or Canada??? British India?

so the purpose of me pointing all the out is that if your POD is 12/13th century then that where you need to start and see where the TL takes you.

Good luck and feliz natal.
 
With a POD all the way back in the 1200s, you could just have the entirety of South America be Portuguese. I mean, shit, with a POD that early you could butterfly away Christian South Iberia in total. I think the answer to your questions depends on what you define as a "Brazilian."
 
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