The Cold War continued...

[KillerT]

Care to imagine how your nations forces would look today had the CW continued through to today?
For example has the USN got 500 warships with 15 being super carriers each loaded up with F22N, A12's, S3 successor etc etc. Does the USAF fly 450 F22, perhaps a 100 B2s along with its f16s, 15s and A10s. And so on...

I'll get the ball rolling, UK BAOR, 1 Corps with 2 RA regiments worth of MLRS and one with the missile variant. 2 Division HQs each with a single Recce regiment equipped with TRACER (this time it succeeded), 1 AAC regiment with 12 Apache and 12 lynx, 2 engineer regiments, 2 RA regiments each with 32 AS90, 1 AD regiment with Starstreak and Tracked Rapier version 2, along with 2 'square' brigades each with 2 MBT regiments using Chally 2 and 2 armoured infantry battalions. There is also a third division with pretty much the same except with a mechanised brigade in place of the 2nd square brigade. The final division is in the UK and is still TA. Other UK forces include 24th Airmobile Brigade, the revitalised 16th Airborne brigade and 3 Commando brigade.

The RN operates 12 Type 45 air defence destroyers, 4 type 22 command frigates, 24 type 23 ASW frigates, 6 type 22 ASW frigates (batch 2). The new ASW frigate is undergoing trials. The RN also has it's 4 Vanguard SSBNs, more than 20 attack boats (just 2 S class left now, along with 7 T boats, 7 W class and the new A class, plus a dozen U class patrol boats). Of course the Invincible class are still being replaced by the new class of ASW and light strike carrier flying Sea Harrier FA4 aircraft while the new F35B will be the definitive strike fighter for the class. The northern flank reinforcement capability is provided by the 2 new LPD's and the RFA with its bay class LSD's all working to move 3 commando brigade in as fast as possible. The Fleet Air Arm operates 60 Sea Harrier FA4/T5, 85 Lynx HAS8/NH90 and 95 Merlin HM2. Along this are the 20 Osprey AEW, and the 35 Merlin Commando helicopters.

The RAF operates 4 main commands, RAFG with its 16 squadrons of Typhoons, Tornados, Harriers, Chinooks and Merlin's. Strike Command has 3 squadrons of A 12 intruder strike aircraft, 6 squadrons of GR4 Tornado, 6 squadrons of Typhoons, 2 squadrons of Harriers and 6 squadrons of F5/ EF5 Tornado. The small batch of F22s will soon be entering service prior to the F35 replacing the remaining strike Tornado and Harrier fleet. Strike Command also flies the ubiquitous Nimrod MRA4, the sentry AEW, along with the air transport and tactical helicopter force. Support Command still fly emergency QRA but with T2 Hawks rather than with old T1 which are now only used at Valley for initial advanced training.

So what's changed from what we have OTL for the UK?
Army- over 90,000 extra personnel, additional AS90 order, Challenger numbers at around 900 rather than 300, very few if any protected vehicles. There are 120 Apaches rather than just 67. UAV use probably less, counter IED capability almost nil. AD capability greatly expanded. Heavy ATGW increased probably using a ground based Brimstone missile system mounted on Warrior chassis.
RN, personnel increase on OTL with extra 30k bunks. Destroyer and frigate force at or as near as possible to 50. RNR probably operates a second generation River class. The RN continues to operate conventional subs if only just to get numbers up. Litoral operations very much second/third fiddle unlike today.
RAF combat squadrons are still as they were in the 1980s no increase or decrease, so it's around four times strength of OTL BUT less investment in UAV and surveillance, although we still do have a single squadron of R1 sentinels just no Beechcraft Shadow R1 to accompany them.

Over to you...

 

[gloster meteor mk3]

No F35B on the Carriers but F18Ks on the QE class, the propulsion is nuclear reactors not what we have now, and steam catapults.(the f18s until the f35c cost is down)

The RAF gets the F35A (until the cost comes down) the Tiffie replaces the Tornadoes in active service.

The Army gets the Harriers from the RAF and FAA to complement there Apache longbows.The Harriers are armed with Brimstone anti tank missiles and sidewinders.

The Tiffie is armed with either AMRAAM or Meteor missiles,sidewinders, Stormshadow (conventional or Nuclear/chemical/biological or FAE) and Conformal fuel tanks attached to increase range.

AWACS/nimrods still in service.

 

[JudgeKing]

No F35B on the Carriers but F18Ks on the QE class, the propulsion is nuclear reactors not what we have now, and steam catapults.(the f18s until the f35c cost is down)

The RAF gets the F35A (until the cost comes down) the Tiffie replaces the Tornadoes in active service.

The Army gets the Harriers from the RAF and FAA to complement there Apache longbows.The Harriers are armed with Brimstone anti tank missiles and sidewinders.

The Tiffie is armed with either AMRAAM or Meteor missiles,sidewinders, Stormshadow (conventional or Nuclear/chemical/biological or FAE) and Conformal fuel tanks attached to increase range.

AWACS/nimrods still in service.

Wouldn't the QEs use electromagnetic catapults instead of steam catapults?

 

[gloster meteor mk3]

They would but until they are proven and the cost goes down we are not going to get EMCATS anytime soon. The current government wanted to put EMCATS on them until they found out you could not split the system putting two EMCATS on the carriers when they are built in fours and the cost would put another BILLION on the price of EACH carrier. They are already over budget and over time as it is If we put EMCATS on the carriers we might not get the carriers at all, we are pushing it as it is.

 

[KillerT]

I was attempting to do this with a nod to reality and how things were shaping up at the time. For example there would have been NO conventional carrier at all, so no chance of f18 what there would have been would have been a souped up invincible. That's what they were envisaging and that's what would have been, no offs nor buts. Remember littoral strike is OFF, overseas jaunts are OFF, the threat is the Warsaw Pact. So first line defence is the v class with Trident plus very likely ASMP or UK variant thereof toted by the RAF. Finally the AAC flying Harriers? Really? Never happen. Sorry.

 

[Have Blue-117]

In a continued Cold War the US armed forces are in pretty good shape compared to OTL. Without budget cuts and the Peace Dividends, we probably get the original 750 Raptors and 132 B-2 which take over much of the budget for the Air Force. B-52 re-engining likely takes place as well. Around 2020 we see the FB-22 replacing the Strike Eagle and the JSF is starting to come into service, having been delayed by Raptor and Spirit procurements.

The Navy is around 500 ships, 600 was unaffordable for any great length of time. I think a nuclear powered cruiser would replace the Ticos and act as escort for the Ford class carriers. In a prolonged Cold War the F-14 stays in service as its mission is still very relavent, eventually being replaced by a navalized F-22 derivative. The A-12 goes into service as well as a carrier based bomber replacing the A-6. We also retain our ASW prowess with an S-3 replacement coming online, The rest I can't say.

 

[KillerT]

Quite agree that the USN and USAF do well out of this compared to the army and indeed any other nation. Take the Netherlands for example, their army sticks at 18 infantry battalions although feasible still that 3 of them go airmobile. However not sure the rest would get CV90 but have to stick with the AIFV. Pretty sure they would still get Spike. Armour wise they get Leo2 possibly also getting a second batch for their 12 armoured battalions. Recce units still get the Fennek. However the Dutch cloggies don't get to have the strong battalions that they have now and are still only around 500 per unit. The rest of the Dutch Navy would probably currently stand at 4 air defence command frigates (no change there) they have kept all 8 m class ASW frigates (at present they only have 2) , new class of ASW frigate replacing the kortnears and of course they also would probably have at least a half dozen patrol subs unlike the current 4. Other big change NO LPD or major Amphibs just basic landing craft and reliance on RN and USN for projection. Dutch Air Force would probably have to have either got new f16s to replace the old aircraft OR got into the typhoon.

 

[TheMann]

Before I can answer what I figure would be, what is the status of the USSR here? If its just limping along stuck in its own malaise and civil strife as it was in the late 1980s, there is no real need for the military force to stay huge, as the Soviet armed forces would be a paper tiger which couldn't take on the NATO forces. If they have managed to get their economy moving stronger in the 1970s and 1980s, that would in itself cause some changes to the world as they see it and as it exists.

 

[Usili]

KillerT, as a question, can there be any PODs in regards to naval sizes or types used?

 

[KillerT]

Perhaps there was no Gorbachev and no perestroika, either way we are still stuck with a split Europe and the fear, that all pervasive fear that some of us experienced at various times of things getting hot.

So it's fantasy tank, army time! (But tempered by some reality please)

 

[KillerT]

The only POD is that things in the 90s and on into the 2000s just continued as before ie paranoia on both sides of the curtain, such fun!

 

[TheMann]

The only POD is that things in the 90s and on into the 2000s just continued as before ie paranoia on both sides of the curtain, such fun!

This is impossible without major changes in the USSR's economy. Are we assuming that happens and that their armed forces doctrines don't change?

 

[TheMann]

PART 1

For Canada, the most high-end possibility is that the original plans from the various governments are merged, and I'll go with the biggest ones.

Navy

Canada proposed to construction of three helicopter carriers (variants of the Invincible class) as well as a fleet of nuclear submarines. This would result in a major shipbuilding program by Canada in the second half of the 1980s, with the aircraft carriers and the Halifax-class frigates being built in the late 1980s, with the first carrier commissioned in 1989 and the first frigate in 1991. Canada would planned three Trafalgar-class nuclear submarines in the 1990s, but I stopped at two because of the costs of also building a submarine fleet. Canada's building of Trafalgar-class SSN stopped at three as they would get involved in next-generation SSN planning with the UK. Thus, Canada would in 2013 be awaiting delivery of its first Astute-class SSN from the UK, and its first home-built Astute would be under construction. The Oberons would be retired in the late 1990s by the Upholders, which are extensively rebuilt before entering service in the early 2000s, and four more such subs are built in Canada with Canadian improvements. The Iroquois-class vessels are retired in the early 2000s, replaced first by the first four examples of the Ticonderoga-class cruiser bought from the Americans and then the Province-class destroyer, built on an extended Burke-class hull and looking similar to the Japanese Atago-class destroyers. The Kingstons are built as proper minesweepers, and the 1980s plan would include the building of two Polar 8 class heavy icebreakers, which are built with nuclear power in large part to provide additional capability and provide training for the RCN's nuclear reactor operators. Sixteen Halifax-class vessels are built, the last delivered to the Navy in 1999. The Provider-class and Protecteur-class supply ships are replaced by five new vessels between 2007 and 2013. Canada builds two copies of the Albion-class LPD between 2001 and 2005, followed by two Bay-class LPDs were built between 2007 and 2010. A small support and sealift ship (like the New Zealand Navy's HMNZS Canterbury) is on the drawing board.

The air wing for this would use the EH101 for the maritime helicopter, with over sixty of them delivered from Britain and Italy or made in Canada between 1995 and 2001 to replace the ancient Sea Kings used by the RCN. The Invincibles were equipped with AV-8B Harrier IIs in the 1990s, and after the retirement of the Sea Kings Canada purchased thirty-five V-22 Ospreys for transport and AEW duties in 2004-2006, as well as a small number of CH-53E Super Stallions between 2001-2003. The CP-140 Aurora is delivered in the 1980s, and plans for replacement by Canada are centered on the use of Bombardier CS300 airliners with the equipment from the P-8 Poseidon patrol aircraft. Talk of replacing the Harrier II with the F-35B Joint Strike Fighter have been talked about but cost has reduced the chances of this happening. The CH-146 is never bought because of its being too small and underpowered to serve in its demanded role, instead a fleet of MH-60 Blackhawks are delivered to the Canadian Forces between 1997 and 2003, with the Canuck Blackhawks used to complement the EH101s.

Overall Fleet

Warrior (Invincible) class light aircraft carrier (2)
- Warrior, Bonaventure
Battle (Ticonderoga) class guided missile destroyer (4)
- Vimy Ridge, Passchendaele, Juno Beach, Kapyong
Province class guided missile destroyer (2, 6 planned)
- Ontario, Quebec, Alberta, British Columbia, Nova Scotia, Manitoba
Halifax class patrol frigate (16)
- Halifax, Vancouver, Ville de Quebec, Toronto, Regina, Calgary, Montreal, Fredericton, Winnipeg, Charlottetown, St. Johns, Ottawa, Edmonton, Kamloops, Sydney, Saskatoon
Kingston class patrol corvette (12)
- Kingston, Glace Bay, Nanaimo, Iqaluit, Shawinigan, Yellowknife, Whitehorse, Goose Bay, Moncton, Brandon, Summerside, St. Catharines
Rocky Mountain (Albion) class landing platform dock (2)
- Rocky Mountain, Canadian Shield
James Bay (Bay) class dock landing ship (2)
- James Bay, Salish Sea
Great Lakes (Trafalgar) class nuclear attack submarine (3)
- Lake Superior, Lake Huron, Lake Ontario
Tribal (Astute) class nuclear attack submarines (4 planned)
- Blackfoot, Haida, Anishinaabe, Squamish
Victoria (modified Upholder) class diesel-electric attack submarine (8)
- Victoria, Windsor, Corner Brook, Chicoutimi, Hamilton, Lethbridge, Kitchener, Trois-Rivieres
Islands class fleet replenishment ship (5)
- Newfoundland, Prince Edward Island, Vancouver Island, Manitoulin Island, Anticosti Island
Polar 8 class heavy arctic icebreakers (2)
- Arctic Wind, Polar Wind
Arctic Islands (modified Svalbard) class arctic patrol ship (2, 5 planned)
- Baffin Island, Ellesmere Island, Banks Island, Devon Island, Melville Island

Navy Air Wing

- McDonnell Douglas CA-182 (AV-8B) Harrier II multi-role attack aircraft (42)
- Bell-Boeing CV-202 (MV-22C) Osprey tiltrotor transport aircraft (34)
- Sikorsky CH-153 (CH-53E) Super Stallion heavy transport helicopter (18)
- AgustaWestland CH-148 (EH101) Cyclone maritime helicopter (75)
- Sikorsky CH-152 (MH-60) Blackhawk maritime transport helicopter (32)
- Lockheed CP-140 (P-3C) Aurora maritime patrol aircraft (30)

Air Force

If the USSR is still around and still able to have some prosperity to fund its huge armed forces, it would force the Canadian Air Force to continue to have a considerable ability to operate up north and force it to have a long reach, owing to its bases primarily being far to the south of Arctic regions. The concern over the Northwest Passage would add to this problem, so the air force would be forced to expand its fighter fleet in the 1990s as the Hornets start getting old and the CF-5 exits RCAF service in the 1990s. This would result in a massive fighter competition in the mid-2000s to replace the Freedom Fighter and then the Hornet, with an emphasis on long range and multi-role capability. I see four potential aircraft that would suit the role bang on - the Eurofighter Typhoon, Dassault Rafale and Boeing's Super Hornet and Strike Eagle. (The Saab Gripen's range is too short, and Canada tends to not like single-engine fighters so the F-16 goes out the door, and Canada would probably be not too keen on the F-35 here because of its interminable delays.) I'd take the Rafale of this set as it would be the most likely to be made in Canada. Canada would purchase a number of E-3 Sentry aircraft in the early 1990s, and the purchase of tankers in the 1990s and 2000s would massively expand the air force's reach. 206 examples of the Rafale are delivered to the RCAF between 2007 and 2013, with the first 35 made in France by Dassault and the rest by Bombardier in Mirabel, Quebec, and Magellan Aerospace in Missassauga, Ontario and Winnipeg, Manitoba. The Canadian Forces is also evaluating the prospect of lighter aircraft for close-air-support and counter-insurgency duties, and has to this end tested the Embarer Super Tucano and FMA IA 58D Pucara Delta. A number of ex-USMC Harrier IIs are also used by ground-attack squadrons of the RCAF.

The 767 program was originally begun in 1995, with the goal of giving the RCAF a much longer reach by rebuilding Air Canada-owned airliners that were being phased out of service. First up for the program (thanks to Boeing's lobbying) was a number of Boeing 747-200M airliners retired by Air Canada in 1997 and 1998, followed by a bunch of older Boeing 767-200s. Eventually eleven 747s and twenty-four 767s were converted into combination transport aircraft and tankers, with the last delivered in 2004. Equipped with a boom as well as three probe and drogue systems, the 747s proved the ability to fill three aircraft at once on more than one occasion, and the airplanes became the backbone of the RCAF's fleet of cargo hauling aircraft, which ultimately resulted in the order of eight C-17A Globemaster III cargo aircraft in 2006 to alleviate concerns about the tankers' availability. Five Airbus A310s used for this role were converted to one VIP aircraft and four aeromedical evacuation aircraft in the 2000s as the 747s and 767s took over the refueling duties. All of the A310s, 747s and 767s all use Orenda-built Rolls-Royce Trent engines, and Canadian C-17s were also equipped with these engines. (The performance of the RR Trent on the C-17 was so good that RAF, Indian AF and RAAF C-17s were also fitted with these engines.) Canada`s fleet of C-130s was also refurbished with C-130Js in the late 2000s. Canada uses the Harvard II and Hawk aircraft from OTL, just with a few more of each, for training duties. The RCAF also operates a number of basic trainer aircraft and smaller transport aircraft for lighter transport duties.

Canada`s aging Huey helicopters were replaced by Sikorsky Blackhawks in the 1990s, with some made in Connecticut and others made in Canada by Sikorsky Canada at Downsview, Ontario. Eventually over 160 helicopters were bought and deployed. Canada`s fleet of Chinooks was upgraded in the 1990s and additional units were bought in the early 2000s, while Canada co-operated with British and Dutch on the license-build of Westland Apache attack helicopters, a deal which saw the WAH-64D in the service of all three nations. Canada's WAH-64s are effectively Westland-built Apache Longbows, with Orenda-built engines, Canadian communications systems and waterproofing and folding blades systems to allow them to be operated from ships. The RCAF also operates a considerable number of smaller helicopters as escorts and scout helicopters, most of these being based on the Bell 407 light helicopter, these replacing more UH-1s in the late 1990s and early 2000s. The V-22 Osprey is also used by the Canadian Army's special forces units and the Airborne Regiment, though the majority of the RCAF's transport duties are done by the Blackhawks or Chinooks, and one squadron of RCAF units is assigned specifically to the aircraft used by the special forces and one squadron uses rebuilt C-130Hs used as tankers for helicopters. Seven examples of the Raytheon Sentinel are also used by the RCAF for supporting Canadian Army units on the ground, and have been proven to be effective in UN peacekeeping operations.

The RCAF's future plans include the possibility of F-22A Raptors for interceptor and air defense forces, the replacement of the aging E-3 Sentry AWACS aircraft and the acquisition of UAVs, with the preferred options this being the RQ-4 Global Hawk, RQ-15 Neptune and Boeing ScanEagle, for various roles.

RCAF Equipment

- Dassault CF-186 (Rafale M) Rafale multirole fighter (206)

- Boeing CE-173 (E-3C) Sentry airborne early warning and control aircraft (10)
- Raytheon CE-190 (Sentinel R1) airborne battlefield surveillance aircraft (7)

- Boeing CC-177 (C-17ER) Globemaster III strategic airlifter (8)
- Boeing CC-180 (747-200M) Argonaut aerial refueling tanker / strategic airlifter (11)
- Boeing CC-181 (767-200) Skylifter aerial refueling tanker / strategic airlifter (24)

TBC....

 

[Have Blue-117]

If the Soviet Union is still around this means that reformers got into office after Khrushchev, preventing the stagnation that occurred under Brezhnev and continuing to liberalise the economy. If we're going to be generous, lets say they have a state capitalist type system with a relatively strong, manufacturing and resource based economy, allowing more money to be invested in the arms race with the West. Lets say a Bondarenko-esque figure starts overhauling the military, moving away from the conscript army, stopping the hoarding and procurement of old equipment.

Army
During the 90s, the AK-74 is replaced by the AEK-971 as a general issue assault rifle while the more expensive AN-94 is procured in smaller numbers for the KGB and Spetsnaz. The rest of their small arms and infantry weapons are basically the same used now by Russian forces. All tanks older than the T-72 were sold or scrapped, the T-72 and T-80 have received overhauls and are at the same standard as the OTL T-90. Most of these were reverted to second line and reserve units who were using T-55s and T-62s while frontline units in Europe and on the Chinese border are starting to use the T-95 which started coming into service in 2010. The BMP-1s in Soviet service were all sold or scrapped, most BMP-2s shared this fate with a small portion of the fleet receiving upgrades, these were rotated to second line and reserve units who were using the BMP-1s. The BMP-3 is used alongside the T-95 in frontline units. I'm not sure of any plans for the BTR series so I assume updated BTR-80s being used by most units and if it is ordered the BTR-90 as well. The 2S19 Msta replaced all older self propelled howitzers with an updated version on the T-95 chassis being adopted as well, the 2A45 Sprut replaced the T-12 anti-tank gun, the BM-21/27/30 MLRS were upgraded with new chassis, updated munitions and fire control systems similar to OTL's Tornado MLRS and all older towed howitzers have been scrapped in favor of updated 2A36 and 2A65 152mm guns. I think air defense equipment is pretty similar to OTL with SA-18 and SA-24 Igla manpads, updated Tor and Buk variants, updated S-300 variants and the S-400 which entered service around 2001, S-500 and Morfey in development, and a mix of upgraded Tunguska and Pantsir-S1 SPAAGs.

Air Force
I think the PVO and VVS still get unified ITTL but their units maintain their original missions. The MiG 1.42 enters service around 2006 for use by frontline units. The MiG-21/23/25 and SU-9/15/17 are all retired and scrapped by 2000, second line and reserve units receive older but upgraded MiG-29, Su-24, MiG-31 and Su-27 formerly from front line units. The MiG-29M, Su-34, MiG-31BM and Su-35 (with canards) are being procured to complement the low volume MiG 1.42 in front line roles. For bombers, the older Tu-95s, Tu-16, and Tu-22 are all retired by 2000, the Soviets have 100 Tu-160 armed with the hypersonic KH-90 cruise missile to replace the Tu-95MS, and the Sukhoi T-60S is beginning to replace the Tu-22M through 2003. Transport aircraft consist of the An-124, An-70 replacing the Il-76, An-72/74 replace the older An-26/32, the Tu-204 is used as an ELINT and MPA aircraft, and the Il-96 replaces the Il-78 for aerial refuelling and the A-50 in the AWACS role. The Mi-8/17 are in process of being replaced by the Mi-38, the Ka-50 has been replacing the Mi-24 since the late 90s, some Mi-24s were upgraded to the Mi-24VM standard to complement the Ka-50, and an Mi-26 replacement is in the works. The Yak-130 is replacing the L-39 like OTL.

I will explain the Navy in another post.