The Coast of Switzerland
- Thread starter Darkest
- Start date
They were alive and well since the 15th century afaik. Their federeation grew most in the first few hundred years afterwards, also afaik. Italy was weak nearly the whole time up until the 19th century, again afaik (too lazy too look it all up). That should be enough possibilities. Before a war in the 16th century (?) or later, they didn't even have their neutrality policy. Let's just make this war turn out a little bit less bloody or a little bit more victorious, and neutrality might never have been adopted. Imo, they had one of the most advanced political systems of Europe during most of their existence. So it should be possible to stabilize gains.
One of their biggest mistakes was to not give new territories the same rights as old territories. There should be a certain path to full recognition and equal rights for newcomers.
There were enough fights in that time to be used for expansion - Sardinia against Sicily or the Vatican or Austria or France would all be perfect for making an alliance and getting a nice warm patch of beach. As much of Italies industrialized area is between Switzerland and the coast, that would give the Swiss a pretty strong position.
One of their biggest mistakes was to not give new territories the same rights as old territories. There should be a certain path to full recognition and equal rights for newcomers.
There were enough fights in that time to be used for expansion - Sardinia against Sicily or the Vatican or Austria or France would all be perfect for making an alliance and getting a nice warm patch of beach. As much of Italies industrialized area is between Switzerland and the coast, that would give the Swiss a pretty strong position.
Savoy would be the best bet for a few reasons the main one being that obviously its the most direct route to the sea. Geneva declared independance from Savoy and joined Switzerland, I suppose more places in Savoy could follow suite in the rake of a really dumb duke.
The only trouble is that would bring France down on Switzerland... Maybe this could happen during the French wars of religion during which the protestants win out?
The only trouble is that would bring France down on Switzerland... Maybe this could happen during the French wars of religion during which the protestants win out?
Do we have a swiss member on the board?
I am german, but have sort of a residence in switzerland at the moment. and of course i read about swiss history.
The swiss had never been a unit. There where always misstunes between protestants and catholics and romandies (frenchspeaking swiss) and german tongued people. They kept together because sometimes the french and german protestants had to unify against the catholics and sometimes the french protestants and catholics and to unify against the germans....Very tricky policy. So they would not have been able to maintain unified long enough to fight a major war outside their borders.
Nevertheless, the swiss army was in a good shape, as their well known mercenaries show.
The largest of the swiss countries, Bern, actually tried to pull a expansionist politics. But several "wise men" warned "not to put the fence too far out" when they were discussing expansion as far as Rottweil, germany. So, the swiss people did not really want to have a sea harbour. And, what should they have done with it? They feel like honest agriculturalists, even today in industrialized times this seems to be an ideal (actual Mr. Swiss is a farmer!)
So, the only way switzerland gets a piece of the sea is like a donation! and even then I am not sure if they would have taken it.
I am german, but have sort of a residence in switzerland at the moment. and of course i read about swiss history.
The swiss had never been a unit. There where always misstunes between protestants and catholics and romandies (frenchspeaking swiss) and german tongued people. They kept together because sometimes the french and german protestants had to unify against the catholics and sometimes the french protestants and catholics and to unify against the germans....Very tricky policy. So they would not have been able to maintain unified long enough to fight a major war outside their borders.
Nevertheless, the swiss army was in a good shape, as their well known mercenaries show.
The largest of the swiss countries, Bern, actually tried to pull a expansionist politics. But several "wise men" warned "not to put the fence too far out" when they were discussing expansion as far as Rottweil, germany. So, the swiss people did not really want to have a sea harbour. And, what should they have done with it? They feel like honest agriculturalists, even today in industrialized times this seems to be an ideal (actual Mr. Swiss is a farmer!)
So, the only way switzerland gets a piece of the sea is like a donation! and even then I am not sure if they would have taken it.
Valamyr
Banned
The unique meld of the three major cultures of west-central europe found in Switzerland means that if its legal, social and political outlook was expanding, it could potentially become an impressive tri-cultural, isolationist, modern state. Given the right circumstances, i could see this appealing to the peoples of the neighbouring nations.
Imagine a Switzerland that stretches deep into North italy, that encompasses burgundy in the west, and southern germany in the east. It could really change all european dynamics.
Imagine a Switzerland that stretches deep into North italy, that encompasses burgundy in the west, and southern germany in the east. It could really change all european dynamics.
Darkest90 said:
The Swiss actually occupied Milan for a while. Out of there, they could push either towards Genoa, or towards Venice. Would however be difficult, as (1) in Milan, they were in the middle of the ambitions of the Habsburgs and Valois in Italy; (2) Venice and Genoa had all the money to buy allies (or even the Swiss away).
No Neutrality
I would expect that, if Switzerland has a seaport before the Great War, Neutrality would have been impossible--they would have been drawn into The Great War or World War II. A seaport is too valuable to leave unmollested. If one side controls the sea, and the other has borders on Switzerland, there's a fine chance to turn that sea command into a beach head, either by diplomacy or surprise attack. Both sides in the Great War were quite heedless of the rights of neutrals...
If there's an adequate Swiss fleet to insure said neutrality, don't forget Copenhagen or Pearl Harbor.
They were able to stay neutral, IMHO, largely because the value of the place wasn't worth the price of invasion.
(I suspect that even a victorious Third Reich would likely not bother, but simply bring the place under its economic dominion, at least for some time. Perhaps dismemberiong the place, to bring all Germans under German rule.)
I would expect that, if Switzerland has a seaport before the Great War, Neutrality would have been impossible--they would have been drawn into The Great War or World War II. A seaport is too valuable to leave unmollested. If one side controls the sea, and the other has borders on Switzerland, there's a fine chance to turn that sea command into a beach head, either by diplomacy or surprise attack. Both sides in the Great War were quite heedless of the rights of neutrals...
If there's an adequate Swiss fleet to insure said neutrality, don't forget Copenhagen or Pearl Harbor.
They were able to stay neutral, IMHO, largely because the value of the place wasn't worth the price of invasion.
(I suspect that even a victorious Third Reich would likely not bother, but simply bring the place under its economic dominion, at least for some time. Perhaps dismemberiong the place, to bring all Germans under German rule.)
Glen
Moderator
Alayta said:
They did on numerous occasions OTL, and successfully so.
That's hindsight, I would suggest. At the time in the middle ages they were taking chunks here and there as needed. Those 'wise men' were heeded in the end because of a disasterous battle that basically knocked the Swiss out for a generation, after which they lost a lot of their momentum...
Getting larger is possible through the French Savoy and northern Italy. It would still be capable of neutrality even if it had a harbor or two like Genoa or Venice.
Perhaps a Venetian and Swiss alliance against the Prince of Milan and then gradual expansion as the neighboring countries went through civil wars and Switzerland picked up pieces that wanted to be neutral? It would always get agreement by both sides before annexing any piece of land, and the two sides would agree because if one side did not agree, that piece of land would declare for the other side.
Italian, French, and German. Slovenian? Trieste is a good harbor.
Perhaps a Venetian and Swiss alliance against the Prince of Milan and then gradual expansion as the neighboring countries went through civil wars and Switzerland picked up pieces that wanted to be neutral? It would always get agreement by both sides before annexing any piece of land, and the two sides would agree because if one side did not agree, that piece of land would declare for the other side.
Italian, French, and German. Slovenian? Trieste is a good harbor.
Savoy acquired Nice in 1388. Was that the first Savoyard access to the coast, anyone know?Glen Finney said:
Savoy was in the Burgundian orbit in the 15th century, and in 1474 the Swiss apparently officially declared war on Savoy as well as Burgundy (so says http://www.zum.de/whkmla/military/15cen/swissburg14741477.html at least). So the earliest chance to get the Swiss to the sea is probably if they followed up their victory over Charles by overrunning all Savoy. Why they should choose to do so, and how they would be alllowed by their neighbours to get away with it, I don't know. Apart from anything else, such a bloc would cut off French access to Italy, which would be interesting come 1494.