The Cathars

The Cathars were a religious group that existed in southern France, before they were exterminated. I saw a show about them on the History Channel, specifically a show about the movie "Angels and Demons" that mentioned them, and I wondered, how could they possibly survive?

And also, I wondered if there was a potential for the Christian denomination spreading.

Any thoughts or ideas? I am making my own little mod for Victoria, featuring mainly a Muslim Spain (or rather, Al-Andalus) and I was thinking that a different religion, Catharism (in place of Protestantism, since you can't make new religions in the game), would be a good addition.
 
The Cathars were a religious group that existed in southern France, before they were exterminated. I saw a show about them on the History Channel, specifically a show about the movie "Angels and Demons" that mentioned them, and I wondered, how could they possibly survive?

And also, I wondered if there was a potential for the Christian denomination spreading.

Any thoughts or ideas? I am making my own little mod for Victoria, featuring mainly a Muslim Spain (or rather, Al-Andalus) and I was thinking that a different religion, Catharism (in place of Protestantism, since you can't make new religions in the game), would be a good addition.

Really tough. The Church was very, VERY down on heretics, and if Catharism stays truly heretical then a crusade IS going to come down on them.

When Luther and Zwingli come along rather later, they have several things going for them. 1) their alternate theologies are well reasoned developments from Scripture 2) the printing press has happened and lots of people now own copies of Scripture and can compare what the Church teaches vs what the new preachers say 3) at a fundamental level - who and what God is and how HE relates to himself, neither of the main Protestant streams differs much from the established Church. Both fully accepted the Apostles' Creed and the Nicene Creed.

None of these are the case for Catharism.
 
I wondered, how could they possibly survive?
The best POD I can see is the victory of Peter II of Aragon over Simon de Montfort at Muret in 1213. This would lead to a surviving feudal Languedoc, all under the lordship of Peter II. He was basically the best friend of the Papacy at this time - even offering his kingdom to the pope. But at the same time, he was aligned with Raymond VI of Toulouse against the crusaders. Interestingly, Raymond was at the time a former brother-in-law of King John Lackland of England.

So here's an idea that just popped into my head while writing this post:
1213 - Peter II defeats the crusaders at the Battle of Muret. Simon de Montfort is killed, his army routed. Peter is thus able to prevent the siege of Muret from being lifted (as it was AIOTL by the victorious crusaders), and it shortly falls to the Aragonese troops.

After that, Peter is able to consolidate his hold upon Languedoc. But with the arrival of a fresh crusader army under Simon's son Amaury, Peter and Raymond feel threatened enough to make overtures to John Lackland. No friend of the Capetians, John could probably be persuaded to invade France in an attempt to reclaim Plantagenet lands lost a decade previously. Whether or not he succeeds is immaterial, the importance is that it would draw French troops and crusaders away from the south. Peter II would be given precious time to consolidate, maybe enough to ensure the survival of his small empire - and thus the Cathars he protected within.



And also, I wondered if there was a potential for the Christian denomination spreading.
They were spreading. Everywhere. There were Cathars in Languedoc, northern France, Germany, and Lombardy. And that was precisely why the Catholic Church felt threatened enough to call for a crusade.[/quote]
 
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