The Byzantine Commercial Revolution

In light of our discussion of the Byzantine Gunpowder Empire, I picked up Oxford's History of the Byzantine Economy, which makes a few interesting points:


We see some interesting developments in agriculture in the 11th century; there's an increase in sericulture, and a proliferation of references to watermills in our sources.

At the same time, se wee more active evidence of Byzantine goods in the west; Byzantine pottery replaces Sicilian and Egyptian ware in Italy, with a proliferation of silk production in Thebes and Corinth, as opposed to just centering it in Constantinople.

Byzantine merchants were surprisingly active as well; Benjamin of Tudela mentions their presencei n Barcelona and Montepellier, and there are other references to them in Cairo.

Merchants also became members of the senate in the 11th cetury, but this was stopped with the accession of Alxius I.
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So what happened, such that Byzantine merchants went into eclipse? As the Byzantine Empire went through crisis after crisis after Manzikert, the Venetians (and other Italians) were able to gain favorable benefits, such as tax advantages, that were unavailable to their Byzantien counterparts, putting them in a comparative disadvantage. IIn many ways the 4th Crusade was a death blow, as it turned the Aegaean into an Italian colony, with Byzantine merchants (lackin the security Venetians and others could rely on) playing an auxiliary role, at best.

But, in a Byzantine Empire that continues to grow and do well after Basil, things might end looking different. The buoyant conditions of the 12th century's economy, combined with a buoyant empire, might get interesting.

Thoughts?
 
A POD that prevents the Doukids from ever coming to power would drastically shift things in the ERE's favor.
 
The problem is, the Mongols are going to come knocking and would crush the Byzantines the same way the Persians, Polish and Hungarians were, rendering the whole thing moot.
 
I think your giving the Mongols too much credit, one they would still have to go through Rum if this after Manzikert. Two they can't take Constantinople. That being said they could theoretically loot and sack most of Anatolia, and worse case the Golden Horde makes it into Greece.
 
I think your giving the Mongols too much credit, one they would still have to go through Rum if this after Manzikert. Two they can't take Constantinople. That being said they could theoretically loot and sack most of Anatolia, and worse case the Golden Horde makes it into Greece.

Considering how Manzikert went OTL, even with a Stronger Byzantine Empire in control of Anatolia, it isn't going to matter much when you get Subotai sitting in the Black Tent outside Constantinople after visiting Hungary, and he'd be well versed in siege warfare by this point.
 
How will the Mongols get through the walls of the City?
The same way the Fourth Crusade did?

It's not like the Mongols had no experience in siegecraft; they'd dealt with walled cities before, and would again later. Besides, a Byzantium that's reduced to a city under siege is hardly going to emerge as a prosperous paradise.
 
The Mongols had alot of luck against Poland and Hungary and Anatolia is a similarly large distance from the Mongol centers of power. So IF the Mongols did experience their dizzying ascent (by no means inevitable, Temujin was one of the bona fide great men who changed history) they may present no serious challenge to the Byzantines at all. Or they may conquer the whole of Anatolia and Constantinople itself and we could end up with a Greek-Mongol hybrid society playing the part of the Ottomans...

There's just alot of ways that could play out.

fasquardon
 
The same way the Fourth Crusade did?

It's not like the Mongols had no experience in siegecraft; they'd dealt with walled cities before, and would again later. Besides, a Byzantium that's reduced to a city under siege is hardly going to emerge as a prosperous paradise.
no not really the crusaders got through because they used very powerful trebuchets against an already exhausted enemy and they had anavy. Byzantium only fell when the sea walls were breached. Till the sea walls get breached the Byzantines will hold. If this is astronger Byzantium rather than the one in 1204 then the capital would be richer and more prosperous hence more population. Plus it would not have been bankrupt either.

As for a mongol navy, yeah I doubt the mongols could build an effective navy. A stronger Byzantium that's more commercial would definatly have a much larger navy and even after the Niceanes retook Constantinople in 1264 a.d Byzantium could field around a100 galleys at least it had the resources to anyway.

Constantinoples fortifications are to be frank ridiculous. In the Ottomans were able to takea broke bankrupt city with less than 8000 people total, four galleys, and cannons,with over hundred thousand battle hardened Turkish soldiers and a ridiculously massive navy to take the walls. Not to mention th esiege almost failed and might've had that one western mercenary commander not died. The mongols will not have the same fvorable circmstances the ottomans did.


Thus taking the city is impossible.

At worst Anatolia is ravaged, maybe the Balkans if the mongols can get past the byzantine fleet somehow, but eventually peace will be signed with the byzantines paying tribute and the mongols returning to their lands for the elction of the new khan and later not being able to return due to the rivalries and infighting between the various khanates. By the way once ogedei dies subodei will be obligated to return to Karakorum to elect the new khan regardless of his other intentions. Ditto for the Illkhans and golden horde.

Oh and fasque with a pod in the 13th century I doubt the house of Osman would settle in northern Anatolia. Thus the ottomans would be butterflied away.
 

Deleted member 67076

The thing is the government elites didn't like trade. You need to change this. Its so much easier the later you get but that means the state will have much less resources.

The problem is, the Mongols are going to come knocking and would crush the Byzantines the same way the Persians, Polish and Hungarians were, rendering the whole thing moot.

The Byzantines could just bribe the Mongols not to attack and set up a mutually beneficial trade relationship. They left them alone IOTL.
 
Oh and fasque with a pod in the 13th century I doubt the house of Osman would settle in northern Anatolia. Thus the ottomans would be butterflied away.

I didn't say anything about the house of Osman doing anything - or indeed existing - read the post again.

The thing is the government elites didn't like trade. You need to change this. Its so much easier the later you get but that means the state will have much less resources.

Most government elites didn't like trade though.

I think the outright corruption of some of the Byzantine Emperors in this period might have been more important. In that a just ruler who hated trade could still do great things for the advancement of Greek trade.

fasquardon
 
I didn't say anything about the house of Osman doing anything - or indeed existing - read the post again.
Oh I see never mind that one point then. Though the only way you could have a mognol khan would be if a commander converted to orthodox Christianity, married a byzantine princess with ties to the royal family who then presed his claims during one of the various civil wars the mongols will not be seen in Constantinople.

On the other hand if a civil war does break out and the Khan declares himself emperor I could easily see him taking the city through bribery and in fact may even be welcomed by the populace depending on how ineffective or weak the existing ruler is.

But for this to work this kahn needs to be
1)Orthdox
2) have claim through blood or marriage to the imperial throne.
 
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