The British develop the Intermodel Container between the world wars.

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Inspired by this excellent thread on logistics: https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=340674

What if, between 1918 and 1939, the British made steps to base their trade network, or at least their military logistics, on what we would now call the Intermodel Container, a post-war invention that revolutionised the way things were transported.

Shipping_containers_at_Clyde.jpg


World War II was the war won on logistics, and the existence of these things had the potential to cange the situation of the etirely.

I assume the British create them, as they are the perfect example of a modern, advanced nation that depended above all on trade, and using their material advantage to maximum effect in wartime. However, they don' need to invent, as I assume anybody who isn't drinking lead makes serious considerations on getting their own system. Even if the system isn't all in place, the war would be sure to accelerate adoption of it.

If you wish, any other power (France, the US, Germany etc.) could make the breakthrough.
 
I believe that a big problem with the containers is that the couldn't be used deeper in the Thames and were used closer to the opening, actually damaging London's economy.

If the do some renovations to accomidate this and remove/minimise the impact then i believe this will help a lot with logistic problems.
 
I believe that a big problem with the containers is that the couldn't be user deeper in the Thames and were used closer to the opening, actually damaging London's economy.

If the do some renovations to accomidate this and remove/minimise the impact then i believe this will help a lot with logistic problems.

There is no physical reason why the docks in London couldn't take containerised cargo (albeit from smaller vessels than are now usual). The biggest problem for moving to containerisation for all of the UK's ports was political - the dock worker's unions resisted it because containerisation (and the mechanisation involved) means that vastly fewer workers are needed to handle the same amount of cargo.
 
Well maybe some could be picked to stay on with moving the cargo, while many of the others could be moved to 'container inspection' duties, making sure the containers do in fact carry what the manifest has them down as containing?
 
if Britain would take containers for transport before WW2
They would much smaller as OTL container for several reason
the size of loading hatches of existent merchant ship, capacity of the loading cranes in Harbors.
and also the size of Trucks and Railway tunnels use in Britain in that time
 
if Britain would take containers for transport before WW2
They would much smaller as OTL container for several reason
the size of loading hatches of existent merchant ship, capacity of the loading cranes in Harbors.
and also the size of Trucks and Railway tunnels use in Britain in that time
Yeah, the big advantage of container isn't its size but the fact it's standardized across the world.

If anyone can invent that it's the French or the British because of the need for multimodal transport for colonial commerce. I would even say the British have a stronger chance as their colonies tend to go deeper in the continent. I know, French Africa and whatnot but the inside of the Sahel isn't nearly as developed as India for example. That increases the need for unified transportation as it's more multimodal, whereas French colonies' developments were closer to the coasts and needed less loading/unloading. Short time to the port, load to the boat, unload in France, stick it on a train
 
if Britain would take containers for transport before WW2
They would much smaller as OTL container for several reason
the size of loading hatches of existent merchant ship, capacity of the loading cranes in Harbors.
and also the size of Trucks and Railway tunnels use in Britain in that time
For a truly intermodal system you have to consider sea, rail, road and inner waterways transportation. The limitation of the size would be the rail network, however as the majority of the rail network has not changed since the interwar period you could see containers up to the size of the current ones used within the UK. These should not be confused with continental (ISO) containers which are larger.
 
if Britain would take containers for transport before WW2
They would much smaller as OTL container for several reason
the size of loading hatches of existent merchant ship, capacity of the loading cranes in Harbors.
and also the size of Trucks and Railway tunnels use in Britain in that time

Railways would be a problem, as one of the design points when the container was made. 95% of all British rail transport was completed by 1920. Lorries would just get bigger as they did OTL.
 
this is the british loading gauge
ukavgauge.jpg


i could see the standard container be developed for that
however i agree that earlier development probably means slightly smaller containers.

instead of the full 40feet, expect it to start with a 20 foot container
(size 8ft wide, 20ft long, 8ft high), especially, since such a container would fit easier on a modified truck trailer/ truckbed of the era

edit: i do see 1 problem though, the stevedores/dockworkers were highly unionised, when trying to introduce this and expect a whole lot of strikes.
the otl introduction of the container had to overcome quite a bit of resistance, and i expect the resistance to to it pre-war being even higher.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Containerization
 
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Regarding the size of the container

If developed in Britain between the wars then the size would be dictated by the transport network and therefore they would possibly be slightly smaller than the ISO container used today - but would very likely become the ISO standard in this ATL.

Are ISO containers moved via rail in teh UK?

If so then there would be little difference as the majority of Tunnels still in use today etc were made before this POD

I am not familier with the Rail gauge used in the UK and across the Empire but I assume it was the same?

If so the introduction of a standard container would be a boon

Yes it would cause employment issues but items could be moved faster and more efficently

Perhaps issues with unloading ships quickly enough during WW1 in the West coast ports drives the perceived need?
 
Regarding the size of the container

If developed in Britain between the wars then the size would be dictated by the transport network and therefore they would possibly be slightly smaller than the ISO container used today - but would very likely become the ISO standard in this ATL.

Are ISO containers moved via rail in teh UK?

If so then there would be little difference as the majority of Tunnels still in use today etc were made before this POD

I am not familier with the Rail gauge used in the UK and across the Empire but I assume it was the same?

If so the introduction of a standard container would be a boon

Yes it would cause employment issues but items could be moved faster and more efficently

Perhaps issues with unloading ships quickly enough during WW1 in the West coast ports drives the perceived need?
Brief bit of history:

The containers used in the UK were limited by the "W" freight gauges. The first freight gauge introduced in the early 1950's was the W5 soon to be be modified to W6 then to W6A which is now classified as the go anywhere gauge. In addition there are the W7, W8 and W9 and more recently the W10 and W12. The W6A fits within the W7 which fits within the W8 and so on (there are some slight differences which means that a small part of the W8 sits outside the W9 but you get the picture). Different routes on the UK network are assessed to determine which Gauge will fit ... all routes should be maintained to at least W6A, those that take the largest container traffic need to meet W12. So to answer one question, yes ISO containers do travel on the UK network but not on all routes as they are typically W9 or greater.

Now the W6A gauge allows for a container that is 8' wide by 8'6" tall so this would be a sensible size, as to length I think the limiting factor would not be the rail network but the road network. Remember these containers will be travelling via sea, rail, road and inland waterways. Even today in the UK the majority of containerised traffic travels by road with rail and inland waterways carrying roughly the same amount as each other.

Sorry to be a bit of a bore but I worked in this field for close to twenty years, mainly on the rail side. I was involved in several research projects for the Railway Safety and Standards Board one of which was looking at how to open more routes to larger containers. You can all stop yawning now lol
 
For an odd reason, I think the standard container in this ATL would be nicknamed the 'Tommy Can', to match the 'Jerry Can' sitting in most cars and garages today.

Speaking of the Jerrys, would the Germans try to copy the British system before their invasion of Barbarossa, if they ever get that far (the improved logistics is bound to help in the Battle of France, but material advantage didn't earn the Allies victory IOTL. Altough I could see more equipment being saved in a Dunkirk situation)?

A big hinderence to the Germans was sending supplies to the end of the European Gauge Railways, unloading those trains, loading trains on the Russian network, then sending the supplies to the depots in the USSR. Containers make that process much faster and easier. While I admire the German people for their efficiency, World War II was one case where I'm glad they were forced to do things the hard way!
 
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Brief bit of history:

The containers used in the UK were limited by the "W" freight gauges. The first freight gauge introduced in the early 1950's was the W5 soon to be be modified to W6 then to W6A which is now classified as the go anywhere gauge. In addition there are the W7, W8 and W9 and more recently the W10 and W12. The W6A fits within the W7 which fits within the W8 and so on (there are some slight differences which means that a small part of the W8 sits outside the W9 but you get the picture). Different routes on the UK network are assessed to determine which Gauge will fit ... all routes should be maintained to at least W6A, those that take the largest container traffic need to meet W12. So to answer one question, yes ISO containers do travel on the UK network but not on all routes as they are typically W9 or greater.

Now the W6A gauge allows for a container that is 8' wide by 8'6" tall so this would be a sensible size, as to length I think the limiting factor would not be the rail network but the road network. Remember these containers will be travelling via sea, rail, road and inland waterways. Even today in the UK the majority of containerised traffic travels by road with rail and inland waterways carrying roughly the same amount as each other.

Sorry to be a bit of a bore but I worked in this field for close to twenty years, mainly on the rail side. I was involved in several research projects for the Railway Safety and Standards Board one of which was looking at how to open more routes to larger containers. You can all stop yawning now lol

Nono, thank you for the input. I bet you're chuffed to see a topic on AH.com where that expertise comes in handy! ;)
 
Brief bit of history:

The containers used in the UK were limited by the "W" freight gauges. The first freight gauge introduced in the early 1950's was the W5 soon to be be modified to W6 then to W6A which is now classified as the go anywhere gauge. In addition there are the W7, W8 and W9 and more recently the W10 and W12. The W6A fits within the W7 which fits within the W8 and so on (there are some slight differences which means that a small part of the W8 sits outside the W9 but you get the picture). Different routes on the UK network are assessed to determine which Gauge will fit ... all routes should be maintained to at least W6A, those that take the largest container traffic need to meet W12. So to answer one question, yes ISO containers do travel on the UK network but not on all routes as they are typically W9 or greater.

Now the W6A gauge allows for a container that is 8' wide by 8'6" tall so this would be a sensible size, as to length I think the limiting factor would not be the rail network but the road network. Remember these containers will be travelling via sea, rail, road and inland waterways. Even today in the UK the majority of containerised traffic travels by road with rail and inland waterways carrying roughly the same amount as each other.

Sorry to be a bit of a bore but I worked in this field for close to twenty years, mainly on the rail side. I was involved in several research projects for the Railway Safety and Standards Board one of which was looking at how to open more routes to larger containers. You can all stop yawning now lol


No No thank you

So in 1930ish we are looking at a container to suit W6 gauge across the country?

Do I take it that the 'track' is the same - ie rolling stock and Engines could operate across the country even if certain routes limited the height and width of what could be carried etc? Or does that too change - and how standardised would it have been across the Empire?

So mainly the UK and India and I guess any 'bespoke' rail links such as those in the middle east built during WW1?
 
There is no physical reason why the docks in London couldn't take containerised cargo (albeit from smaller vessels than are now usual). The biggest problem for moving to containerisation for all of the UK's ports was political - the dock worker's unions resisted it because containerisation (and the mechanisation involved) means that vastly fewer workers are needed to handle the same amount of cargo.

It's not just that. Containers are much harder to steal from than looser cargo, which was apparently considered an unofficial perk by many of the dock workers.
 

Devvy

Donor
Do I take it that the 'track' is the same - ie rolling stock and Engines could operate across the country even if certain routes limited the height and width of what could be carried etc? Or does that too change - and how standardised would it have been across the Empire?

So mainly the UK and India and I guess any 'bespoke' rail links such as those in the middle east built during WW1?

The track varies wildly across the empire; it's not even standard in the UK (Ireland - and successor Republic & Northern Ireland - uses a different track gauge to Great Britain). Canada, GB, Australia, NZ generally used standard gauge. India and Ireland use a broader gauge. Africa generally a narrower gauge.

I would guess that something like 8ft x 8ft x 30ft would be reasonable though; the shorter length would make it easier to be introduced on existing track as the wagons could be shorter (less problem of overhang going around corners) and probably many existing wagons could be retrofitted.
 
As said above, the exact dimensions of each container is not really all that important (though a smaller container offers less capacity for every tonne of steel used to make containers, an important consideration if significant numbers of containers are lost to U-boats and need to be replaced). The key is the standardisation and speed the system offers. Raw materials could be gathered all across the United States, put into containers and sent either by rail or road to the East Coast, where they board a ship, cross the Atlantic, get unloaded in Britain, are put on trains and lorries for the factories, processed into the guns, bullets, clothes, cars, fuel, tea and toilet paper, which is then wheeled back to the ports, loaded back on to the ships, sent either around Africa or through the Med, then lands in Alexandria to get sent to 8th Army that is at the very end of their supply tether and are on the verge of stalling if they don't get those supplies now.
 
For the POD, you could have a company (rather than a government) introducing a standard container during WW1 as a way of speeding up loading and unloading from their ships (purely as a way of making money - the less time the ship takes loading and unloading the more money it can earn).

Following its introduction, other companies would take notice, and start introducing their own containers, all of varying sizes styles and materials.

With more and more companies doing this, the government could then step in during the Interwar period and introduce a standard container, that all companies would use etc
 
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