The British Army manpower crisis of 1943-45 and Bevin's Boys

Dave Shoup

Banned
By the look of correspondence on the 15th June, 1943, to the Minister of Aircraft production, a problem may have been starting to become obvious then, since Churchill writes to that minister that: '...What I am not quite clear about is your labour situation. I note that you have received a very much smaller quota than was allocated to you...'
On July 3, 1943, Churchill is writing to his chief statistician:
Sadly, any figures provided in response don't seem to have made it into the tables presented in my edition of volume V.

Thanks. Good insights.
 

Dave Shoup

Banned
Dave Shoup, remember that this is only a list of the British divisions. It does not include the African, Australian, Canadian, Indian, New Zealand and Polish divisions serving with the British, in NW Europe, the Middle East & Mediterranean and India.
  1. Home (L.E.) are infantry divisions on the Lower Establishment.
  2. N. Africa are divisions that were actually fighting in North Africa to May 1943. Some of the divisions listed as being in Egypt from 31s May 1943 onwards may not have been in Egypt, but were in Libya or French North Africa.
  3. Italy includes divisions that took part in the invasion of Scilly.
  4. India includes divisions in Burma.

And none of 1, 2, or 4 have any bearing on why sending ~20,000 or so physically fit British 18- and 19-year-olds into the coal mines, rather then the British Army infantry replacement pipeline for 21st Army Group or 15th Army Group, was a good decision or not, do they?

As far as 3 goes, obviously the transfer of the British 1st Airborne, 5th Infantry, 7th Armoured, and 50th and 51st infantry divisions, plus various separate brigades, corps and army troops, and the XXX Corps headquarters, makes it clear that the combat formations the British deployed into Italy in 1943-45 and northwestern Europe in 1944-45 were equivalents. Still has no bearing on whether it was wise policy to send ~20,000 or so physically fit British 18- and 19-year-olds into the coal mines, rather then the British Army infantry replacement pipeline for 21st Army Group or 15th Army Group.

It would be an increase.

As you can see from the table the number of British divisions in 21st Army Group increased from 11 at the end of June 1944 to 14 at the end of March 1945.
  • 6th Airborne Division was replaced by 7th Armoured Division and 56th Infantry Division in July 1944, increasing the total from 11 to 12
  • 79th Armoured Division arrived in August 1944, increasing the total to 13.
  • 59th Infantry Division was replaced by 52nd Infantry Division in October 1944, maintaining the total at 13
  • 50th Infantry Division was replaced by 6th Airborne Division in December 1944, maintaining the total at 13
  • 6th Airborne Division returned to the UK on 24th February 1945, presumably to prepare for the Rhine crossing, reducing the total to 12
  • 6th Airborne Division was back in 21st Army Group on 24th March 1945 and 5th Infantry Division had joined 21st Army group in March too, increasing the total to 14 divisions which was maintained until the end of the war in Europe.
1st Airborne Division was only in NW Europe from 17th to 29th September 1944 and didn't go to Norway until 10th May 1945. 1st Armoured Division was serving in Italy. I don't know why it was disbanded. It could have been to provide reinforcements for other units. It could also have been that the British Army didn't need 2 armoured divisions to fight in northern Italy.

That's all interesting, but after all, it would be difficult not to increase the number of combat formations (divisions and brigades) in 21st Army Group between June, 1944 and VE Day. The question is whether the larger number - two more infantry divisions and three additional full strength armoured brigades - could have been sustained in action with the manpower ordered into the coal mines and/or the seven light infantry brigades raised by converting AA, CA, and SL battalions, rather than keeping these units as Royal Artillery.

Also, 79th Armoured Division was not a combat division; it was an administrative headquarters for a brigade of armoured engineers and two tank brigade headquarters that functioned as administrative headquarters for battalions equipped with the various specialized combat engineering vehicles the British developed in 1942-44.

And the 1st Armoured Division was broken up so the 18th Infantry Brigade could be disbanded in 1945 to provide infantry replacements for the rest of 8th Army; the 2nd Armoured Brigade remained in the 8th Army's order of battle until the end.

All of the above is from Joslen.

I admit that the destruction of Normandie was nearly 2 years before the OP. I put it in to give an idea of how significant its loss was. However, the UK's manpower shortage had been an issue for some time, so I think it's legitimate to have some sort of alternative action taken sooner than the POD. I still think that you are overestimating the amount of spare shipping that was available and that it would be harder to find transport than you think even for these small numbers.

Not really, actually; moving 1,000 laborers across the Atlantic would have required the equivalent of one voyage each of two Liberty ships converted as ad hoc troopers; more than 200 were converted for such duties from 1943 onward, historically.

As the table of divisions shows there wasn't a decrease in the number of British divisions NW Europe didn't decline between June 1944 and May 1945, it increased. Therefore, 21st Army Group would have needed more supplies would have been required for the 50th and 59th Divisions had they not been disbanded. Also note that from September 1943 to May 1944 an average of 6½ British divisions were fighting, compared to an average of 19 from June 1944 until the end of the war.

Actually, the loss of the three infantry divisions (including the 1st Airborne) and the 27th Armoured Brigade in northwest Europe, the loss of the 1st Armoured Division in Italy, and the diversion of the British 4th and 46th divisions (and the 23rd Armoured Brigade and the 4th Indian Division) from Italy to Greece in 1944-45 under Scobie's III Corps most certainly decreased the number of British Army divisions deployed to active fronts in Europe, from 22 (Guards, 1st, 6th, 7th, and 11th Armoured divisions; 1st and 6th Airborne divisions; and 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 15th, 43rd, 46th, 49th, 50th, 51st, 52nd, 53rd, 56th, 59th, and 78th Infantry divisions) to 16 (Guards, 6th, 7th, and 11th Armoured; 6th Airborne; and 1st, 3rd, 5th, 15th, 43rd, 49th, 51st, 52nd, 53rd, 56th, and 78th Infantry divisions). One can argue that a decease from 22 combat-capable divisions to 16 was insignificant, but it seems rather doubtful any general officer responsible for holding a given front - much less preparing for an offensive - would agree

Obviously, it was a good thing for the Allied cause that the US Army, the French, the Italians, the Poles, etc,. could fill in the gaps, in Italy and northwest Europe.

Likewise, given the realities of Allied production in 1944-45, there would be no need to disband combat forces to buildup equipment or supply pools. If nothing else, divisions could be "grounded" on the defensive or in theater reserve pending any supply build-up, and then go back into action - obviously, in 1945.
 
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True enough, but the OP POD wasn't what could they have done differently in 1939-45, but in 1943-45, given the POD that Bevin asks for the conscripts, is denied, and asked to find additional personnel for the labor pool for the British coal mining industry.

I understand that but British manpower was pretty well maxed out OTL and IMO it would take an earlier POD to resolve (if it really needed resolving - they won after all)
 
The problem is that without the aid of Great Britain if it came to the Irish army physically defending Irish territory the battle for Ireland would have been lost before it could begin. The deserters were realistically probably doing more to defend Ireland by deserting and joining the British forces then they actually would have by remaining with Irish forces.
Then they shouldn't have joined the DF, they should have joined the British military. Would any other nation just ignore deserters from their military? Is the US policy "ah sure it's grand"?
 
Then they shouldn't have joined the DF, they should have joined the British military. Would any other nation just ignore deserters from their military? Is the US policy "ah sure it's grand"?

If men had deserted from the US army in say 1939 or 1940 for the express purpose of joining the British/Canadian/Free French armies and had then served honorably I would urge strongly against punishing them.

World War Two was a war between civilization and barbarism. Someone leaving a neutral army that wasn't doing anything to fight against that barbarism so they could fight were doing the morally correct thing. And I'd argue they were doing far more to defend Ireland in a British uniform then they ever could have in a Irish one.
 
If men had deserted from the US army in say 1939 or 1940 for the express purpose of joining the British/Canadian/Free French armies and had then served honorably I would urge strongly against punishing them.

World War Two was a war between civilization and barbarism. Someone leaving a neutral army that wasn't doing anything to fight against that barbarism so they could fight were doing the morally correct thing. And I'd argue they were doing far more to defend Ireland in a British uniform then they ever could have in a Irish one.
If men had deserted from the US army in say 1939 or 1940 for the express purpose of joining the British/Canadian/Free French armies and had then served honorably I would urge strongly against punishing them.

World War Two was a war between civilization and barbarism. Someone leaving a neutral army that wasn't doing anything to fight against that barbarism so they could fight were doing the morally correct thing. And I'd argue they were doing far more to defend Ireland in a British uniform then they ever could have in a Irish one.

And given at that time said U.K. was actively looking/planning of invading the Free State does that make desertion the right choice? The US wasn’t at risk of the U.K. deciding it suited them to seize it.
 
And given at that time said U.K. was actively looking/planning of invading the Free State does that make desertion the right choice? The US wasn’t at risk of the U.K. deciding it suited them to seize it.

What? All nations create theoretical war plans of various unrealistic degrees. By 1939 the odds that the UK are going to try and actually seize control and try to recolonize Ireland is non existent. And while the odds of GB falling are pretty damned small Ireland's future at the time depended heavily on the Brits winning. Any future involving a independent and democratic Ireland relied on Great Britain's success.
 
What? All nations create theoretical war plans of various unrealistic degrees. By 1939 the odds that the UK are going to try and actually seize control and try to recolonize Ireland is non existent. And while the odds of GB falling are pretty damned small Ireland's future at the time depended heavily on the Brits winning. Any future involving a independent and democratic Ireland relied on Great Britain's success.

Ah no there was active lobbying and planning at cabinet level either to invade or from Churchill just to retake the treaty ports.

And Ireland was well aware of the U.K. needing to stay free which is why it never impeded anyone who hasn’t volunteered to serve the DF from joining British Forces.
 

Dave Shoup

Banned
I understand that but British manpower was pretty well maxed out OTL and IMO it would take an earlier POD to resolve (if it really needed resolving - they won after all)

Disbanding or converting combat formations (the 1st Armoured and 50th and 59th infantry divisions and the 23rd, 25th, and 27th armoured brigades, with a total of 37 maneuver battalions) in the middle of active operations, converting RA and RM units (or reconverting, in the case of the RM) back to infantry (nine brigades total, with some 27 maneuver battalion), and in the same period the Ministry of Labor was diverting tens of thousands of fit conscripts into mine labor assignments pretty much makes clear the situation did need resolving.
 
And none of 1, 2, or 4 have any bearing on why sending ~20,000 or so physically fit British 18- and 19-year-olds into the coal mines, rather then the British Army infantry replacement pipeline for 21st Army Group or 15th Army Group, was a good decision or not, do they?
You are missing the point of points 1, 2 and 4. (Pun intended.)

The table showed the distribution of British Army divisions from the end of 1942 to the end of the war. Points 1, 2 and 4 were merely to clarify what Home (L.E), N. Africa and India meant in the context of the table.
 
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As far as 3 goes, obviously the transfer of the British 1st Airborne, 5th Infantry, 7th Armoured, and 50th and 51st infantry divisions, plus various separate brigades, corps and army troops, and the XXX Corps headquarters, makes it clear that the combat formations the British deployed into Italy in 1943-45 and northwestern Europe in 1944-45 were equivalents. Still has no bearing on whether it was wise policy to send ~20,000 or so physically fit British 18- and 19-year-olds into the coal mines, rather then the British Army infantry replacement pipeline for 21st Army Group or 15th Army Group.
You have missed the point of Point Three. If I hadn't put Point Three people might have read the table and thought, "Why are there divisions in Italy in July and August 1943 when the invasion of mainland Italy didn't begin until September 1943?"
 
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All of the above is from Joslen.
I own a copy. That's what I compiled the spreadsheet from. It's a reduced version. The full spreadsheet goes back to September 1939, has the African divisions in it and the armoured divisions on a separate tile.
 
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I understand that but British manpower was pretty well maxed out OTL and IMO it would take an earlier POD to resolve (if it really needed resolving - they won after all)
It only makes a difference if it shortens the war in Europe. E.g. if it resulted in the war in Europe being over by the end of 1944. And if that happened the disbanding of units due to a shortage of manpower would become irrelevant, because the war would be over before some of said units were disbanded IOTL.
 

Dave Shoup

Banned
You are missing the point of points 1, 2 and 4. (Pun intended.) The table showed the distribution of British Army divisions from the end of 1942 to the end of the war. Points 1, 2 and 4 were merely to clarify what Home (L.E), N. Africa and India meant in the context of the table.

You have missed the point of Point Three. If I hadn't put Point Three people might have read the table and though, "Why are there divisions in Italy in July and August 1943 when the invasion of mainland Italy didn't begin until September 1943?"

I own a copy. That's what I compiled the spreadsheet from. It's a reduced version. The full spreadsheet goes back to September 1939, has the African divisions in it and the armoured divisions on a separate tile.

Okay, so not pertinent to the question of how best to use the available British manpower in Europe in 1943-45. Understood.
 

Dave Shoup

Banned
It only makes a difference if it shortens the war in Europe. E.g. if it resulted in the war in Europe being over by the end of 1944. And if that happened the disbanding of units due to a shortage of manpower would become irrelevant, because the war would be over before some of said units were disbanded IOTL.

With that logic, why bother transferring the British 5th Infantry Division from the 15th Army Group to the 21st Army Group in February, 1945 in Operation GOLDFLAKE - much less the Canadian I Corps headquarters, the Canadian 1st Infantry and 5th Armoured divisions, as well as the 1st Armoured Brigade and the other corps troops?

Or, for that matter, why organize the 301st, 303rd, 304th, 305th, 306th, 307th, and 308th infantry brigades, and the 116th and 117th RM brigades, in January, 1945, and begin deploying them to the COntinent in February, 1945?

For that matter, why even maintain the British elements of the 15th and 21st army groups in Europe after New Year's Day, 1945?

Presumably keeping the British Army in the field, up to strength, and in action until the Germans surrendered was the point for the Allied cause.
 
Okay, so not pertinent to the question of how best to use the available British manpower in Europe in 1943-45. Understood.
A different used of the available manpower in Europe 1943-45 might have shortened the war in Europe and therefore it is a pertinent question.

However, I think what you're suggesting isn't the best use of the available manpower in Europe 1943-45 and am explaining why I think that.

I'm also suggesting alternatives that might make better use of the available manpower in Europe 1943-45.

The purpose of the spreadsheet was to provide some facts to aid the discussion.

So, no, you don't understand.
 

Dave Shoup

Banned
A different used of the available manpower in Europe 1943-45 might have shortened the war in Europe and therefore it is a pertinent question. However, I think what you're suggesting isn't the best use of the available manpower in Europe 1943-45 and am explaining why I think that. I'm also suggesting alternatives that might make better use of the available manpower in Europe 1943-45. The purpose of the spreadsheet was to provide some facts to aid the discussion. So, no, you don't understand.

Now you're just being insulting. The OP is simple enough: how can the British come up with an extra 20,000 men in 1943-45, physically fit enough to work in the coal mining industry, but not otherwise subject to conscription for military service?

Nothing you've offered addresses that question.
 
Does Pile's book give any details about the organization of the 301st, 303rd, 304th, 305th, 306th, 307th, 308th brigades by mass conversion of coast artillery, searchlight, and anti-aircraft artillery battalions?
Have just finished reading it again. He mentions conversion of searchlight units to light and heavy AA in general terms. Not once is a battery, regiment, brigade, division or group identified.
 
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