The Book of the Holy Mountain - An Alternate Seminar in Alternate Pre- and Ancient History

Do you know that this entire time, I've been reading this under the impression that Prof. Hadjeamin was a woman? Must be the notion of a more matrifocal culture being explored, making me automatically identify persons in positions of authority as women unless otherwise specified.
In my imagination, Prof Hadjeamin changed from female to male, to be honest. I started with the same mindset you described, but later thought that the Amaloxian civilization is going to be for TTL´s Historical Studies what Sumer and Egypt are for ours, not like what the Danubian cultures are IOTL: one of the major areas of ancient history, insted of a subject covered by a lot of feminists. Of course Prof Hadjeamin could still be a female under these circumstances, but later he clearly became male in my imagination somehow. (Maybe because I´m a male lecturer?) So when I read these lines, I had to check my first posting to see if I had used female personal pronouns before, and I was relieved to see that I hadn`t.

Anyway, we're really getting to the "oh, wow!"-bit of the TL right about now, in my opinion. Time for some off-the-wall analysis!
:)
I loved your analysis and this kind of discussion is really what makes writing a TL worth the effort. I think I share a lot of your views, so if this does not transpire in my following rant because I focus on the differences or something, let it be stated beforehand.

Interesting stuff, right here! Personally, I've always had some serious caveats when it comes to the image of "Old Europe" that Gimbutas played up. Matriarchal and peaceful? I don't buy that. Matrifocal, certainly! I suspect a key factor here is that "Old Europe" was simply a far more localised amalgation of tribes or clans.
I suspect as much, too, but it´s really really hard to tell, and we have next to no information as to which groups may have been matrifocal, patrifocal, matrilinear, patrilinear etc. Just like we don`t know about where language groups began and ended. In this timeline, I´ll posit that the groups living in what is today Romania, Moldavia, much of Bulgaria and Serbia and parts of Hungary spoke varieties of the same language and shared a significant degree of cultural similarities / convergences. This is the area in which Vinca signs, miniature figurines, very early metalworking, Aegaen-imported spondylus shells as symbols of, well, something, and the absence of megalithic architecture coincide. Upriver all along the Danube and farther West, there was another sort of early trade network and highway of influence, so similarities do occur and it makes sense to group all the Linear Ceramics (LBK) populations under the "Old Europe" umbrella, but as we move West (or South, for that matter), there are also marked divergences among these early agricultural societies. Maybe there were three, four, five or even more language groups in this area? Maybe in some of them, daughters went to live with their husbands` families when they married, while in others, the sons went into the wife`s family? Maybe in the "elders` councils" of some of them, women used to talk more than men, while in others, it was the other way round. Where were things how? We simply don`t know. I´ll go distribute some of these characteristics randomly all over the map of "Old Europe", therefore. This is going to be counterbalanced ITTL by the powerful influence which Amaloxia is going to exert, of course.

We see among several North American tribes that they had structures where a council of "wise mothers" ran daily affairs, and appointed male war-chiefs when needed. And we also see that the "wars" in question were often very minor clashes, rather than protracted campaigns. When I picture "Old Europe", I see something very much like that.
The analogy is quite fitting, I agree. Crop packages, herded animals and the kinds of metalworking provide for a significantly different foundation, too, of course.

I'd like to suggest it was the other way around: they developed the right tech (hello, horsie!) to conduct raids and warfare on a vastly greater scale. This made warfare more importanrt to them, and thus gave greater prominence to war-leaders (who have in almost all cultures in history tended to be overwhelmingly male).
I absolutely agree.

I think Gumbutas had cause and effect mixed up, basically. And that she saw it as too black and white.
Does she really spell out a causal chain opposed to the one you portrayed? Also, I think, there are only so many realistic ways to sell a theory in a given social background. But yeah, I`m sure it wasn`t a black-and-white situation IOTL. Which doesn`t mean
a) that later Amaloxian civilization wouldn`t develop just that kind of black-and-white view ITTL as their cultural, political, and social foundation and
b) that the scholars of my timeline are going to converge and agree on the issue more than those of OTL.

This implies that weapons had to be converted from agricultural tools, or adopted from the enemy. It hints at the notion of the peaceful, idealised "Old Europe". That smells fishy to me. I'd like to know, at some point, just how accurate this really is.
I agree that the fact that we haven`t found a lot of_unambiguous_weapons in "Old European" sites doesn`t mean nobody ever smashed another one´s head in, or that no clan or village ever engaged in mass violence against another. It is very probable, in my view, that they didn`t use their axes just for cutting down trees, and they didn`t use their sickles just for cutting emmer wheat, and that they didn`t use their bows and flintstone-headed arrows just for hunting deer. Yet, the absence of_unambiguous_weapons does tell us something in a context in which other simultaneous cultures had such items (the copper-spiked mace heads of Novodanilovka, for example): it can mean that they had no special social group whose role it was (at least prominently among other things) to conduct military activities.
(There is another possible interpretation, too: the PIE groups, living in the woodless steppe, had no use for axes, and not being agriculturalists, they had no use for sickles, either. So maybe their improvements in mace-head durity and strength were prompted by the sheer need for a close-combat weapon. This is a viable explanation. I´ll still go with the other one, even in the absence of horses, because while agriculturalist small-scale warfare is often burning down the Other`s village, pastoralist small-scale warfare is often stealing cattle. The former tends to be avoided until deemed inevitable, and when it becomes inevitable, it requires a lot of people from your group to engage in the attack. The latter is reversible and often practiced as a ritual, and it works best with just a couple of fast guys. I´m oversimplifying here, of course.)

So, ITTL, when the Amaloxians begin to build a proto-state and maintain a sort of professional military force, I think it makes a lot of sense for them to move from using any kind of object in reach which is suited to inflicting damage to using a broader variety of instruments and to adapt them for improved efficiency. If you`re a farmer most of the time, and you sometimes want to avenge a family member or maybe your village has to drive off a bunch of foragers who have been plundering your orchards and hunting your goats, then you`ll take your sickle and your flail and your axe to the conflict, but since you need your sickle most of the time for cutting wheat, you want it to be suited for that task. Not too straight or long or heavy, and just sharp enough for cereals. Such stuff isn`t cheap in the eneolithic or early bronze age, so the habit of keeping various sickles around - some for warfare, some for cutting weat - won`t necessarily pop up. When you have a "temple guard", though, you can expect them to adapt what is there to create something which is primarily good at killing other people.

This also hints at a lack of internal conflict. "The Other" brings war, to a previously peaceful land. It can, of course, also be read as "the external threat ended ages of local skirmishes between local clans/tribes, and forced them to unite against the greater foe." Which I think would be a more realistic interpretation.
So you`re closer to TTL`s position of Lenefr than to that of Hadjeamin? ;-)
I`m not sure. I tend to think that the quality of war is changing at that moment, too.
Just to qualify: I´m not a follower of the ideological agenda of our myth`s author, and I don`t think the Danubian culture was peaceful because it was matriarchal. To note: Several centuries before PIE groups probably had a great role in bringing about the collapse of the Gumelnita culture and its replacement with the Cernavoda culture, "Old European" Cris / Pre-Cucuteni groups moved Eastwards and completely made the mostly-foraging Bug-Dniester culture disappear. And the entire arrival of the agricultural groups from Anatolia in a hunting-and-gathering Europe millennia before certainly wasn`t only peaceful, either.
But the wave of new arrivals certainly changed things deeply along the Danube in the late 5th millennium BCE, too. "Uniting against the greater foe" could be an apt description for what I´m making the Old Europeans do ITTL, but I´d also emphasise that with that, a new stage of military development is reached.

This whole part, even when reading the myth itself, at once reminded me of Isaac Asimov's Guide to the Bible (a truly fascinating book). When analysing the earliest books of the OT, Asimov points out that when persons are mentioned, tribes are meant. We must not see Cain and Abel as men, but as analogies for tribes. The same thing may well be at work here, with the "nine women" representing various tribes/clans in the region, forces to set aside their divisions and join together.
That`s no coincidence, I had something similar on my mind as well.

You know what this reminds me of? This reminds me of what the Indo-Europeans did in OTL! Establish yourself as the upper class, and use the conquered as a slave/serf underclass.
A very interesting judgment.
While I`m not perfectly sure if this is really how it happened IOTL, I think some interesting similarities and differences can be drawn from this analogy.
A similarity is that this model is not going to remain a local exception if it is successful; it´s going to cause ripples of influence around it.
Among the differences, I´d note that here, the massively larger (or a part thereof), technologically more advanced and less mobile group is enslaving a smaller group. That should provide for a different dissemination of the new social structures compared to OTL.
 
Also, we now officially have someone who stated that Gimbutas was influential in shaping their worldview, and someone who says they`ve always been critical of her.
This should be fun :)
 

Skallagrim

Banned
Also, we now officially have someone who stated that Gimbutas was influential in shaping their worldview, and someone who says they`ve always been critical of her.
This should be fun :)

To be clear: I'm critical of that particular part of her views. I'm 100% on board with the Kurgan hypothesis*, and in general she has my deep respect for her pioneering work.

[*Technically, Anthony's Revised Steppe Theory is my go-to, but his work is in essence simply the best defence and revision of the Kurgan model we have.]
 
:) I´m glad you like it!
I may add, yesterday I was attending a book presentation about Feminism in Syrian Kurdistan where some of the very issues you tackle here were touched (the Goddess was mentioned several times, with all the historical connections to Anatolia, early agriculture, and the birth of state organizations, incidentally all stuff that I happen to briefly touch in my courses); a colleague was among the speakers and a very brilliant student of mine was among the organizers, both somewhat engaged in Feminist militancy. Then we talked about PIE etymologies, the relationship between state structures and gender hierachies, and such. Today I saw this. So you struck a chord.
 
This is a fascinating (and ambitious) project! Very much enjoying it, although it's really just revealing to me my own abyssally poor knowledge of this sort of prehistorical period.
 
This is a fascinating (and ambitious) project! Very much enjoying it, although it's really just revealing to me my own abyssally poor knowledge of this sort of prehistorical period.
I am extremely honored and glad to count you among my readers!
hows north Africa and the middle east?
So far (around 3900 BCE), not quite changed from OTL's course. North africa had zero interaction with the Pontic-Caspian steppe and an unknown amount, likely also near zero, with the Danube. Butterflies will take a long while to reach there. Mesopotamia, on the other hand, has nothing to do with the Danube, and exchange with the steppe began IOTL during the Maykop period centuries later. When this fails to happen or takes another course, butterflies will not be tremendous still, at first. When No Yamnaya happens, that's when the fun really starts.

The greatest changes have so far occurred in places we know very little about: of course, in the steppe, but also among its northern hunting-gathering woodland neighbours and ripples have been felt all along the Danube corridor Westwards already. Next update will either include or be followed by an overview of the situation ca. 3500 BCE.

One thing I'm pondering and where I can use input is whether the massive use of brass by a state-level society is going to delay the discovery and use of real Bronze, and if so, where.
 
hows north Africa and the middle east?
It just dawned on me that your question could also be interpreted differently.
So, here are links to wikipedia articles for anyone who needs broad strokes of overview:
In Mesopotamia, the transition from the Ubaid to the Uruk period is more or less completed. Across North Africa, the same climate change which wreaked havoc on the cattle-herders of the Pontic steppe has led to the desertification of the Sahara and brought an end to a number of cultures there, leading to pressures and a concentration in the still green parts; in Egypt, the Amratian and the Gerzeh cultures have evolved. In the Levante, some of the earliest workers in Bronze live in the Jordan Rift Valley, the Ghassulian culture.
All over this broad region, large parts of territory are being abandoned for lack of water, and more and more towns emerge. Social stratification increases, proto-writing develops in several places.
 
@Falecius cool to have your Background knowledge in this thread, too! Any comments and suggestions always welcome!
I am not really an expert about Old Europe though, I am a bit more familiar with Near Eastern Bronze Age. David Anthony however is really a fascinating and compelling read. Most of my understanding of the era comes from that book.
Incidentally, a point on language, where I feel slightly more confident to comment about (I am not strictly speaking a linguist, but I have some training). You are obviously right that we know vanishingly little about Old Europe linguistical landscapes, simply because they left no readable documentation whatsoever (I am skeptical about an understanding of the Vinca symbols as actual writing, but even in that case, we are unlikely to ever find a way to crack the code anyway). And, while i know very little about Hattic, I gather that the language and its grouping connections are very poorly understood as well. However, there are some structural and lexical similarities between Afro-Asiatic (especially Semitic), Indo-European, and some Caucasian groups (as well as between Uralic and IE, but largely not shared with the other sides) that seem to support the notion floated by Anthony, that the language of Old Europe might have been a branch of Afro-Asiatic (plausibly originating from a sister branch to Proto-Semitic or Proto-Northern-Afro-Asiatic, given chronology; I am assuming, as Anthony does, Militar'ev's diffusion model for Afro-Asiatic, which is of course not that clear to be the correct one). This basically hinges on very similar words such as *tawr (most likely a very early loanword in IE, though internal derivation is also possible). Of course, both Semitic and IE could have borrowed that root from some other language group of Anatolia/Caucasus, as it is likely to be the case for the other famously shared root *wayn (probably from Kartvelian). However, there are other compelling similarities (*ghdhom for "Earth" - also connected to words for "man" in both groups. And also the other word for "Earth" of course, is suspiciously close).
What do you think on this?
 
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I am not really an expert about Old Europe though, I am a bit more familiar with Near Eastern Bronze Age. David Anthony however is really a fascinating and compelling read. Most of my understanding of the era comes from that book.
Incidentally, a point on language, where I feel slightly more confident to comment about (I am not strictly speaking a linguist, but I have some training). You are obviously right that we know vanishingly little about Old Europe linguistical landscapes, simply because they left no readable documentation whatsoever (I am skeptical about an understanding of the Vinca symbols as actual writing, but even in that case, we are unlikely to ever find a way to crack the code anyway). And, while i know very little about Hattic, I gather that the language and its grouping connections are very poorly understood as well. However, there are some structural and lexical similarities between Afro-Asiatic (especially Semitic), Indo-European, and some Caucasian groups (as well as between Uralic and IE, but largely not shared with the other sides) that seem to support the notion floated by Anthony, that the language of Old Europe might have been a branch of Afro-Asiatic (plausibly originating from a sister branch to Proto-Semitic or Proto-Northern-Afro-Asiatic, given chronology; I am assuming, as Anthony does, Militar'ev's diffusion model for Afro-Asiatic, which is of course not that clear to be the correct one). This basically hinges on very similar words such as *tawr (most likely a very early loanword in IE, though internal derivation is also possible). Of course, both Semitic and IE could have borrowed that root from some other language group of Anatolia/Caucasus, as it is likely to be the case for the other famously shared root *wayn (probably from Kartvelian). However, there are other compelling similarities (*ghdhom for "Earth" - also connected to words for "man" in both groups. And also the other word for "Earth" of course, is suspiciously close).
What do you think on this?
Anthony's book is great indeed.
As for languages, I followed the *tawr argument and the overlapping hypothesis it implies. How the word got there and how many others did, I would leave open, as I honestly have no idea how to judge the overall plausibility of the Afro-Asiatic hypothesis. If some language structurally related to Afro-Asiatic was spoken along the Danube, that would have been a branch separated very early indeed. So early that I tended not to base my conlang creations on parallels to, say, Hebrew (I've already used such tricks for both alt-Egyptian and Amru words) or Aramaic or any historically reconstructed earlier A-A languages. Instead, I tried to get a feel for the Germanic and the Greek substrates and blend them somehow.

I would say the best bet for guessing language borders is to reconstruct migratory patterns of the early agriculturalists who conquered and created Old Europe. There appear to have been two paths: one along the Mediterranean, the other along the Black Sea and Danube. I assume a language border to result from that. The border goes across rugged terrain from the Balkans to the Alps. Are there any additional language groups that suggest themselves? Here, things become hazy. The farther West we go, the more we observe a different cultural pattern; one in which (predominantly female) anthropomorphic imagery combines with a penchant for megalithic architecture. So maybe a third group? (not to speak of the North where I assume indigenous languages bear no relation with Old European whatsoever).

But, it's all so highly speculative...
 
As for languages, I followed the *tawr argument and the overlapping hypothesis it implies. How the word got there and how many others did, I would leave open, as I honestly have no idea how to judge the overall plausibility of the Afro-Asiatic hypothesis.
To be fair, nobody really does.
 
(On further reading, I might have been a little bit too pessimistic about cracking the Vinca signs. Some patterning is detectable at the very least).
 
Anthony's book is great indeed.
As for languages, I followed the *tawr argument and the overlapping hypothesis it implies. How the word got there and how many others did, I would leave open, as I honestly have no idea how to judge the overall plausibility of the Afro-Asiatic hypothesis. If some language structurally related to Afro-Asiatic was spoken along the Danube, that would have been a branch separated very early indeed. So early that I tended not to base my conlang creations on parallels to, say, Hebrew (I've already used such tricks for both alt-Egyptian and Amru words) or Aramaic or any historically reconstructed earlier A-A languages. Instead, I tried to get a feel for the Germanic and the Greek substrates and blend them somehow.

I would say the best bet for guessing language borders is to reconstruct migratory patterns of the early agriculturalists who conquered and created Old Europe. There appear to have been two paths: one along the Mediterranean, the other along the Black Sea and Danube. I assume a language border to result from that. The border goes across rugged terrain from the Balkans to the Alps. Are there any additional language groups that suggest themselves? Here, things become hazy. The farther West we go, the more we observe a different cultural pattern; one in which (predominantly female) anthropomorphic imagery combines with a penchant for megalithic architecture. So maybe a third group? (not to speak of the North where I assume indigenous languages bear no relation with Old European whatsoever).

But, it's all so highly speculative...

Yeah, very speculative. For all we know, Old European could have actually have been IE-speakers, though the body of evidence in favor of the Revised Kurgan Hypothesis against Renfrew's Anatolian Hypothesis is near-decisive by this point (critically what can be gleaned from the horse and chariot vocabulary etc.).
You are right that, if Old Europe was indeed Afro-Asiatic, it would be rather divergent branch, distinct from any known one (though likely somewhat closer to Semitic than other branches; indeed, most lexical elements in PIE who show Afroasiatic cognates has Semitic correspondences rather than other branches; but then, Semitic is also the best documented branch by far, so data are biased). Anatolian linguistic prehistory (before early IE) is also rather puzzling, with at least two language families attested in the East who have plausible but unproven connections to North Caucasian families whose mutual relationship is likewise unsettled.
You assumptions about language boundaries are entirely reasonable, and I also would assume that the further West you go, the more likely you are to find adoption of agricultural lifestyle without linguistic replacement. What can be gleaned from pre-PIE languages historically attested in Iberia suggests that. Thyrsenian languages offer a different picture (they seem too cohesive as a group to be the reflex of Old European southern branching). Regarding the substrates, are you assuming that whatever was spoken in pre-Hellenic times is distantly related to Amaloxian then? And how does the Germanic substrate enters the picture? Do you suppose that pre-Proto Germanic speakers picked up their non-PIE elements from descendants of the northern fringe of Cucuteni-Tripolye?
 
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Wouldn't it be more likely that old European languages would resemble Basque and Etruscan?
Well, Vasconic keeps defying any serious attempt at establishing relations with everything else, so we might assume that the speakers of whatever it came from were already in the general neighbourhood of the Pyrenees. For all we know, the Megalithic cultures of Western Europe may have spoken languages related to Basque. Or not. The Thyrsenian languages are anyone's guess. Lemnian and Etruscan are so similar that one has to assume a relatively late divergence, as in, you might date Proto-Thyrsenian at about the time of the Bronze Age Collapse and somehow the connect it with (some of) the Sea Peoples. But it's very speculative as well, a lot of alternate hypoteses can be floored as well and non is verifiable under known documentation AFAIK.
It is also possible that Old Europeans in Cucuteni-Tripolye spoke something that had no discernible relation whatsoever with any otherwise documented language group.
 
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