The Bohemian Revolution - A Sidestepped Thirty Year's War

Hello! This thread is currently Blank save for a crosspost from the Map Thread on this very scenario. If there is any interest in this TL and Map, please let me know by commenting here. I'm open to suggestions. I'm thinking of making this in a piecewise fashion, and am open to any/all collaborators.

Cheers!
 
The basic premise is that the Bohemian Revolt, which in OTL leads to the Thirty Years War is mostly successful. The two major PoDs leading to this are that Henry IV of France survives his assassination in 1610, and that James I dies the next year, leading to his so being crowned Henrey IX, butterflying away his own death. These two monarchical Henrys are more invested in a thriving Protestant state to oppose the Hapsburgs (Especially one with IX's beloved sister as Queen), so aid in both arms and men. This convinces the Protestant Union to do the same, which results in a victory in the Battle of White Mountain against the Hapsburg Forces

Bohemian Revolution.png


The Year is now 1647. Europe is once again at peace following the War of Secession, lasting from 1628-33, which followed the declaration of succession from the HRE of most of its Protestant states. The Hapsburgs were mostly powerless to stop it, fighting a downhill battle, as all of Europe seemingly piled up on. However, tensions are once again starting to Rise between the ascendant Great Powers. England, France and the Netherlands are starting to heat up over colonial disputes, with the Iberian Union slowly starting to up their colonial game over the massive territory they control. Transylvania yearns to take back all of Hungary from the remnant HRE. Poland is trying to wrestle control from the Danes, who seem more interested in the Germanies than the Baltic. And the Holies Emporer stews in his capital of Wien at the losses his father has sustained.

Then, on July 17th, Frederick V of the Kingdom of Grand Bohemia dies peacefully in his sleep. Europe, especially those in the Protestant Union, Morn the loss of their great leader, and hold their breath to see if this is the spark of yet another War.

Alliance Map of Europe-

Bohemian Revolution Alliances.png
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_V_of_the_Palatinate This guy? is Bohemian a proto Checz Kingdom or they just consider themselves part germans?

Yup, that guy!

Grand Bohemia is a mostly German state, especially as it also constitutes the former Electorate of the Palatinate as well. However, the Checz language and culture are currently going through a bit of revitalization, as it is accepted as a language of court (Under German), and is not being culturally diluted.

Thanks for your interest by the way! If you have anything else to ask, feel free!
 
Thanks for your interest by the way! If you have anything else to ask, feel free!
This is very original, this cut the habsburg power in half and we've a more protestant germany, seems the habsburgs might move their powerbase to spain and the hereditary lands in the time being..unless the ottomans give another fatal blow to the habsburgs.

Grand Bohemia is a mostly German state, especially as it also constitutes the former Electorate of the Palatinate as well. However, the Checz language and culture are currently going through a bit of revitalization, as it is accepted as a language of court (Under German), and is not being culturally diluted.
This is very important, as we could get a 'central/middle german' would merged with checz or a future germany very bilingual or cultural with checz or an early Chezcz Kingdom will be a power in european powers if the habsburgs start to fall.

More details the newborn kingdom? those would be interesting to see.
 
This is very original, this cut the habsburg power in half and we've a more protestant germany, seems the habsburgs might move their powerbase to spain and the hereditary lands in the time being..unless the ottomans give another fatal blow to the habsburgs.


This is very important, as we could get a 'central/middle german' would merged with checz or a future germany very bilingual or cultural with checz or an early Chezcz Kingdom will be a power in european powers if the habsburgs start to fall.

More details the newborn kingdom? those would be interesting to see.

Thanks! I’ve also wondered my this idea hasn’t been done to death before, as it seems like something that could have been possible if only there was a little more support. It also severely decreases the death in the 17th century, which is always a plus.

I’m thinking that with the HRE being put out of the picture, the Hapsburgs would move their power base to Spain, like you say. This would likely mean that the Spanish hapsburgs might not go as extinct so soon, if there are more noble catholic Germans disposed of that could offer more blood into the bloodline.

I’m thinking that could defiantly be the case, with different regions of Germany all having distinct accents and loan words form other regions, including Czech.

I’ll body more details of the Kingdom of Grand Bohemia soon, propbably within the next day or so. Suffice it to say it with be a scientific hub for years, considering all the famous Czec scientists there were even in OTL.

Do you have any perspective you’d like to offer about where the rest of the world could head?
 
Thanks! I’ve also wondered my this idea hasn’t been done to death before
Nope i can't remember or recall, always start before or after, yours is pretty unique and that is why read and comment about it.

Do you have any perspective you’d like to offer about where the rest of the world could head?
Things will be different, no war of spanish sucession is possible but again seems habsburg might have a final try in germany/HRE soon but the ottomans are still ahead and they could give the german hasburgs a mortal hit here...there a lot of choices buddy so things will be far different otl and pretty unique.
 
The basic premise is that the Bohemian Revolt, which in OTL leads to the Thirty Years War is mostly successful. The two major PoDs leading to this are that Henry IV of France survives his assassination in 1610, and that James I dies the next year, leading to his so being crowned Henrey IX, butterflying away his own death. These two monarchical Henrys are more invested in a thriving Protestant state to oppose the Hapsburgs (Especially one with IX's beloved sister as Queen), so aid in both arms and men.

This convinces the Protestant Union to do the same, which results in a victory in the Battle of White Mountain against the Hapsburg Forces

Main problems:

(a) Henry or no Henry, France at that time does not have a sizable army capable to make a meaningful contribution to the issue.
(b) Britain (as in England and Scotland) have even lesser military forces and had to rely upon the volunteers of questionable experience and quantity (Anglo-Dutch regiment, Scots-Dutch regiment, "Regiment of Brittanes"). In OTL some troops did they arrive but did not make any noticeable difference.
(c) A big part of the Catholic army at White Mountain had been troops of the Catholic League, not those of the Austrian Hapsburgs. Some of the contingents had been from the Spanish Netherlands and these troops, prior to the White Mountain, allowed to turn the tide forcing the Protestant forces to retreat from Austria.
(d) Spain had a vested interest in maintaining the Spanish Road open so in the case of a failure at the White Mountain one may expect a greater Spanish involvement on the early stages of war.
(e) At the beginning of war the German Protestants, unlike the Catholic league, did not have an organized military force.
(f) Among the Lutheran princes of the HRE fate of a Calvinist Frederick V did not generate great interest. Actually, even in Bohemia support of that nincompoop started waning soon after his election.
(g) In a reality, the only realistic allies of the Bohemian insurgents were Hungarians and the Ottomans. The Hungarians had been beaten and the Ottomans stuck in Poland.
 
Main problems:

Thanks for the honest feedback! All your points are valid, and I’ll have to think of a way to rework the scenario to be more probable.

Is there any advice that you would give to make it more feasible. This is all alternate history after all.
 
Thanks for the honest feedback! All your points are valid, and I’ll have to think of a way to rework the scenario to be more probable.

Is there any advice that you would give to make it more feasible. This is all alternate history after all.

One suggestion would be to have somebody other than The Winter King elected to the Bohemian Crown in the first place; though it'd still probably have to be a member of the HRE, with a better capablity to organize the Protestant forces and having a solid financial-diplomatic-military base on which to conduct their campaign (And hire mercenaries/subsidize allies). Christian IV springs to mind as the materially best choice (In his role as Duke of Schleswig and Holstein) in terms of raw war-chest capabilities (And he's Lutheran, which is a more broadly popular Protestant branch), while his wife gave him family connections that would intise in Brandenburg (A state in one of the better positions to provide immediate aid to Bohemia, as well as holding an Elector position if the Anti-Habsburg coalition wanted to later undermine the Austrians by electing a non-Habsburg to the position of Emperor).
 
Thanks for the honest feedback! All your points are valid, and I’ll have to think of a way to rework the scenario to be more probable.

Is there any advice that you would give to make it more feasible. This is all alternate history after all.

Can't promise you an easy and fast victory. :winkytongue:

How about the Ottomans living up to their promise and coming through Hungary with a big army? The PLC can be more or less neutralized by a smaller force of the Ottomans and Crimeans. Of course, promised 400,000 Ottomans was a pure fantasy on Sultan's part but 50 - 60,000 (of which 30 - 40,000 would be high quality troops) plus the Hungarians could a serious business, especially when the Bohemian troops had been closing on Vienna.

OTOH, when you are getting the Ottomans involved, you have to keep in mind that their logistics was rather cumbersome: unlike their Western contemporaries, they had been paying a very serious attention to the regular supplies of their troops which means that they had to carry with them huge baggage train. Anyway, if troops of the Unholy Alliance :)evilsmile:) are converging on Vienna then, even if Vienna itself is not captured, all the Catholic forces are going there. Unlike the OTL 2nd Vienna, the German Protestants are not joining the Catholic forces because the Ottomans are acting in concert with the Protestants (BTW, Bohemia, IIRC, was not formally a part of the HRE even if its king was an elector but let it be). With some of the Hapsburg hereditary lands also having numerous Protestants (and rebelling), the Austrian Hapsburgs and the Holy League are on the defense for a near future. If the Dutch are breaking peace a little bit ahead of the schedule (don't remember what was left out of the agreed upon time), then the Spanish troops in the Netherlands are tied as well and the all hope is on the reinforcements coming from Spain and Italy.

Unfortunately, the Protestant princes do not count for too much in the military terms (Saxony may raise some troops but its armies tended to be of a questionable quality) but, if Frederic is not as big an idiot as he was in OTL, then he can try to look for the freelancers like Mansfield but with a greater talent (Bernard of Saxe-Weimar is a little bit too young for the early stage of the 30YW) or he can try to find a Wallenstein-like figure (this would not be a trivial task) to raise and maintain his armies.

Now, alt-France (either with Henry or with Duke of Luynes inspiring Louis XIII to adopt a more aggressive policy toward the Hapsburgs) may allow some prominent Protestant clown like the Duke of Rohan to raise troops (the Huguenots) to help Calvinist Frederic against the Hapsburgs. 2 birds are killed by one stone: (a) almost no matter where that army is getting deployed, it allows to at least partially compensate for the possible Spanish arrivals and (b) while fighting the Hapsburgs these Huguenots are not rebelling against the King of France. If some serious results are expected, use Lesdiguières to raise an army and invade some place the Spaniards care about.
 
One suggestion would be to have somebody other than The Winter King elected to the Bohemian Crown in the first place; .

I really like your idea of Christian IV trying to take the throne, but I think it might change the scenario too much to be quite feasible. His two realms would be very disjointed, and while it is quite feasible that he could end up ruling them both, I think it would still leave the Bohemians weak to being reconquered.

Can't promise you an easy and fast victory. :winkytongue:
Thank you for the several great suggestions.

I agree, having the Ottomans not being bogged down in Poland but rather bringing the fighting to Vienna would help the Protestant cause mightily.

Not quite sure what to do about the PU being weak militarily, except for possibly seeing if Denmark or Sweden would want to aid militarily, or having better military commanders like you say.

The part about the Huguenots killing two birds with one stone is brilliant, and I'm 100% incorporating that part as Cannon to this TL! maybe the Huguenots could attack Milan or Catalonia as a way to distract the Spanish from providing much-needed assistance elsewhere.

Do you guys have any ideas on where Europe could go from here? I have a few, but I'd like to know all your takes on it.
 
Among the Lutheran princes of the HRE fate of a Calvinist Frederick V did not generate great interest. Actually, even in Bohemia support of that nincompoop started waning soon after his election

That was mostly because he pissed the Lutheran/Hussite (I think the one source I read said there were still some of those hanging around in the early 17th century) Czechs off with his Calvinism and also his appointment of people who had followed him to Bohemia to NB positions in government (as opposed to Czechs themselves)
 
One suggestion would be to have somebody other than The Winter King elected to the Bohemian Crown in the first place; though it'd still probably have to be a member of the HRE, with a better capablity to organize the Protestant forces and having a solid financial-diplomatic-military base on which to conduct their campaign

Friedrich was when they were scraping the bottom of the barrel TBH. They'd previously tried the elector of Saxony, Prince Bethlen (I think), and one or two other princes (IIRC prince of Anhalt?) Sorry forall the I thinks and IIRCs, it's been awhile (~5years) since I've really read up on the period.
 
Can't promise you an easy and fast victory. :winkytongue:

How about the Ottomans living up to their promise and coming through Hungary with a big army? The PLC can be more or less neutralized by a smaller force of the Ottomans and Crimeans. Of course, promised 400,000 Ottomans was a pure fantasy on Sultan's part but 50 - 60,000 (of which 30 - 40,000 would be high quality troops) plus the Hungarians could a serious business, especially when the Bohemian troops had been closing on Vienna.

OTOH, when you are getting the Ottomans involved, you have to keep in mind that their logistics was rather cumbersome: unlike their Western contemporaries, they had been paying a very serious attention to the regular supplies of their troops which means that they had to carry with them huge baggage train. Anyway, if troops of the Unholy Alliance :)evilsmile:) are converging on Vienna then, even if Vienna itself is not captured, all the Catholic forces are going there. Unlike the OTL 2nd Vienna, the German Protestants are not joining the Catholic forces because the Ottomans are acting in concert with the Protestants (BTW, Bohemia, IIRC, was not formally a part of the HRE even if its king was an elector but let it be). With some of the Hapsburg hereditary lands also having numerous Protestants (and rebelling), the Austrian Hapsburgs and the Holy League are on the defense for a near future. If the Dutch are breaking peace a little bit ahead of the schedule (don't remember what was left out of the agreed upon time), then the Spanish troops in the Netherlands are tied as well and the all hope is on the reinforcements coming from Spain and Italy.
.

The issue with Ottoman involvement is that the Sultanate still had its army deployed on its eastern marches and had been fairly bruised by an extended war against Safavid Persia. Combined with domestic unrest they were experiencing in the Balkans and the need to regenerate funds for war, the critical last years of the 1610's/1620's found the Ottomans with a (temporary) crimp on their power projection. Not to mention the political problems in the Porte due to Osman II's assention via the palace coup against his uncle, thus requiring him to consolidate his position at home
 
I really like your idea of Christian IV trying to take the throne, but I think it might change the scenario too much to be quite feasible. His two realms would be very disjointed, and while it is quite feasible that he could end up ruling them both, I think it would still leave the Bohemians weak to being reconquered.

More likely, at least early on, Christian would be more relevant for using Denmark's fairly robust treasury to subsidize the German princes' armies and hiring up mercenary forces to secure Bohemia and provide a core around which the magnates can build a proper local army. The long term government structure would probably have to be somewhat autonomous, true, but many dynasties managed to govern divided domains well enough.
 
The issue with Ottoman involvement is that the Sultanate still had its army deployed on its eastern marches and had been fairly bruised by an extended war against Safavid Persia. Combined with domestic unrest they were experiencing in the Balkans and the need to regenerate funds for war, the critical last years of the 1610's/1620's found the Ottomans with a (temporary) crimp on their power projection. Not to mention the political problems in the Porte due to Osman II's assention via the palace coup against his uncle, thus requiring him to consolidate his position at home

That's true but we are in AH so certain inconvenient details can be shrugged off. ;)

Anyway, Osman II became Sultan in 1618 and he did promise a huge army to help the Protestants. War against the Catholics (almost always a popular thing) would remove or at least postpone some domestic problems so the main difference is that his army is marching somewhat earlier (to become a factor before the White Mountain) and that most of it is not marching to Poland.
 
Not quite sure what to do about the PU being weak militarily, except for possibly seeing if Denmark or Sweden would want to aid militarily, or having better military commanders like you say.

As far as Sweden is involved, it was not available until 1629. Prior to this it was fighting a series of wars with the PLC over possession of the Baltic coast. For GA this was more important than German business: he ended up with controlling the grain exports from Lithuania (and from Tsardom of Moscow) which meant considerable custom dues.

As for Denmark, it did interfere later (IIRC, Christian was acting in his capacity of a German prince) but it does not look like its army and army of its German allies were up to the task.
 
That's true but we are in AH so certain inconvenient details can be shrugged off. ;)

Anyway, Osman II became Sultan in 1618 and he did promise a huge army to help the Protestants. War against the Catholics (almost always a popular thing) would remove or at least postpone some domestic problems so the main difference is that his army is marching somewhat earlier (to become a factor before the White Mountain) and that most of it is not marching to Poland.

Well, I suppose if a large number of rebellious Jannissaries just HAPPENED to unfortunately end up falling in righteous battle against the Papists for the glory of the Caliphate, that could kill two birds with one stone. I mean, in that case young Osman would just have to organize a supplementary force from Anatolia and the Levant in order to protect the Empire ;)
 
Well, I suppose if a large number of rebellious Jannissaries just HAPPENED to unfortunately end up falling in righteous battle against the Papists for the glory of the Caliphate, that could kill two birds with one stone. I mean, in that case young Osman would just have to organize a supplementary force from Anatolia and the Levant in order to protect the Empire ;)

Very interesting insight. ;)

OTOH, they could be reasonably successful: the Hapsburg forces and army of the Catholic League were at that time relatively small, the tactical advantages of the Western armies still were an issue of the future and Montecuccoli was just a boy so there would be a reasonably good chance if not of a smashing victory than at least in causing a lot of damage (and doing a lot of looting) which in a precarious pre-White Mountain situation could be enough to change the tide and force Ferdinand to acknowledge the loss of Bohemia.

Well, this still leaves 2 big issues:

1. Keeping Spanish Road open. Spanish troops still could march across Alsace (see the map). The problem was not in Germany but in Savoy and France: the Treaty of Lyon (January 17, 1601) forced the Spanish Road to be reduced to a narrow valley and a bridge over the Rhône. This loss of territory made Spanish passage on the road dependent on the approval of France (which it refused in 1601 - 1602). "In 1609, Savoy expelled Spanish garrisons, followed by an alliance with France against Spain in 1610 and a dynastic war over possession of Montferrat (1613–1617), settled by the Peace of Asti. Savoy allowed a Spanish-Italian army to pass through the Spanish Road in 1620 but its anti-Spanish Treaty in 1622 ended Spanish travel on the Spanish Road forever." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Road#Use ) As I understand, the troops still could march through the mountain passes of Valteline/Graubunden and then to Hapsburg-held Tyrol (in OTL conflict over control of this area lasted from 1618 till 1639).

2. An issue of the Protestant vs. Catholic electors (especially when one of the Protestant electors holds 2 voting positions). This is serious but probably can be negotiated, even with the support of at least some Protestant princes (and electors) who are not very fond of Frederic and the whole Bohemian business (Saxony almost definitely, Brandenburg - possibly if there is a suitable carrot): prior to Ferdinand starting pushing them around, they are seemingly happy with the status quo. Say, something along the OTL lines: Frederic retains electoral status as King of Bohemia but his original electoral position is transferred to Bavaria (as did happen). The balance is retained, everybody is happy (for a while).

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