Thanks, it is as you suggest. I’ll see if I Can modify or find a reason for a more significantly delayed action by Packenham
The betrayal of the Kaiserliche Marine and the resurrection of the Reichsmarine
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I think it’s a design feature, focus on rapid fire and the volatile explosives that combined to create the OTL disasters. Indeed, British battleships also blew up when penetrated. If the queen E’s get close enough for this to happen they can blow up to. That is quite a bit closer than what it is for the British BC’s.
Really , because battlecrusiers blew up for some reason that means new battleships will ( the losses at Jutland were all battlecrusiers or lower)? You are also putting the fastest, longest gunnery range RN battleships in a fight that somehow they don't open the range from. Basically it makes no sense, the Germans cannot dictate the range so the RN ships will pull back, one might get an unlucky hit and get battered but more is heading towards ASB at a great rate of knots.
I am saying that penetrating hits would do the same damage. They need to penetrate first which is a lot less likely with a battleship than with a British battle cruiser.
The two fleets (battlesquadron vs HSF) did get into shooting range iotl due to communication problems. This turned out fortunately for the British as they could now draw the fire away from the more vulnerable battlecruisers at a range were hits would not penetrate.
The two fleets were heading directly towards each other so the closing speed would be close to 40 knot or about 1 km per minute. Every minute delay (as compared to otl) in the turning order would under those circumstances count quite strongly towards heavier British damage.
That's not how battleship battles go, the Germans would turn to get the broadsides in action not just the British. Unless the lead paint suddenly got quaffed in large amounts by both sides, the opposing forces just don't get that close. This is not late WW2 with radar assisted guns, the number of salvos to get a straddle means the faster RN battleships might get hit a few times but not to get sunk/crippled ( as stated before a Golden BB might lead to one getting battered down ). The battlecrusiers were lost to sudden cataclysmic damage due to a lack of flash protection due to it being purposely removed, the QE's did not suffer from that flaw. No battleship was lost to a direct hit on a magazine after being punched through the belt ( main magazines are under the waterline so would need long range plunging fire to be hit)
The visibility was quite poor on this part of the chase, but apparently better in the direction the Germans were looking. Add the ongoing brawl between BC’s in the middle and I think it’s quite possible they would get very close without a turn order. The cause of this delay might be expanded/rewritten (cf. my response to Miketr). Now, the 30.5 cm guns would start to see penetrations at close range, which would result in flash explosions in the turrets. The British turret designs were, as I understand it, not good at handling this.
It just didn’t cause the destruction iotl as the penetrations didn’t happen.
Now regarding the actions taken by the Germans, they would be crazy not to close the range as much as possible, and if the British turn broadside rather than run, it would be their doom.
Admiral Cordite. There are two views out there on the losses of the British Battle Cruiser force took that day.
1) It was all Beatty and his idiot orders to increase rate of fire.
OR
2) It was the cordite itself! Dangerously unstable.
I subscribe to option 2.
Let me toss out some names
HMS Bulwark
HMS Princess Irene
HMS Natal
HMS Vanguard
HMS Glatton
All lost to... cordite explosions and non were in combat. Most were in PORT!
I can provide other ship names as RN ships exploded in combat beyond the 3 BCs.
Contrast this to HSF. You have two losses, SMS Pommern and SMS Karlsruhe. You have SMS Seydlitz at Dogger Bank have not one but two powder rooms fully cook off and yet the ship didn't go down. MASSIVE fire but no explosion. Reason is the German powder was chemically different and with radically different storage procedures.
My viewpoint is all RN ships are at high risk of a cordite explosion if you can get a fire started anyplace in the munition handling system.
So for me having other RN ships exploded is not at all unreasonable just dont go nuts with it and have every single RN ship die from cordite explosions.
Michael
1) It was all Beatty and his idiot orders to increase rate of fire.
OR
2) It was the cordite itself! Dangerously unstable.
I subscribe to option 2.
Let me toss out some names
HMS Bulwark
HMS Princess Irene
HMS Natal
HMS Vanguard
HMS Glatton
All lost to... cordite explosions and non were in combat. Most were in PORT!
I can provide other ship names as RN ships exploded in combat beyond the 3 BCs.
Contrast this to HSF. You have two losses, SMS Pommern and SMS Karlsruhe. You have SMS Seydlitz at Dogger Bank have not one but two powder rooms fully cook off and yet the ship didn't go down. MASSIVE fire but no explosion. Reason is the German powder was chemically different and with radically different storage procedures.
My viewpoint is all RN ships are at high risk of a cordite explosion if you can get a fire started anyplace in the munition handling system.
So for me having other RN ships exploded is not at all unreasonable just dont go nuts with it and have every single RN ship die from cordite explosions.
Michael
You're essentially right. Glatton admittedly was a result of a magazine fire caused by some fuckmuppet not filling rivet holes with rivets and for using compressed newspaper as insulation between one of the propellant rooms and a boiler room.
The cordite is inherently bad. The magazine detonations at sea are entirely caused by penetrating hits on the turrets causing a flash fire in the propellant charges stacked in the gunroom. The fire then vented down through the ammunition passages where the flash safety interlocks had been removed and caused a conflagration in the magazine.
The Battlecruisers were equipped with lighter-armoured turrets than their battleship cousins. Their armour schemes were inferior. The QEs have the heaviest armour afloat including more turret armour.
The QEs did have a 6" upper belt that will be punched through with no issue whatsoever. Now, while you won't get magazine explosions from that upper belt penetration (Short of fires started cook off ammo) you absolutely could see a ship crippled if the boiler uptakes are destroyed. You could possibly see the secondary magazine blow up, though this may not sink the ship. Note that the steering gear also has poor protection.
The QE's main 13" belt was narrow. Very narrow. Not much water has to be taken on, and it's underwater. Or, if she has a list, the 8 inch lower belt is exposed. They have heavy armor, but there are some very important things left lightly armored. A and Y turrets aren't even fully protected by the belt.
The QE's main 13" belt was narrow. Very narrow. Not much water has to be taken on, and it's underwater. Or, if she has a list, the 8 inch lower belt is exposed. They have heavy armor, but there are some very important things left lightly armored. A and Y turrets aren't even fully protected by the belt.
Germans need range to be 10K meter to defeat the turret faces and main belt armor. 12K meter will defeat the barbettes above the deck but we are talking a very small target area there. All assuming 90 degree impact of course. Upper belt and 6" battery armor can be defeat at any practical battle range by the German 12"L50s. If you are going to see some more explosions that is the most likely source. Hit against 6" battery, fire starts, gets out of control and the secondary mags go. Otherwise you need some weird event like hit against turret face, back of armor spalls off, the fragments set off ready munitions, and the ammo passageway anti-flash doors are all open at that moment to allow the flash to propagate to powder rooms. True golden BB. Only other option is German TB attack, RN subdivision and under water protection was not as good as the Germans. So really we have are fires spreading to secondaries or torpedoes with progressive flooding.
Issue here is why are the Germans able to get the battle to such short range? Why is Thomas-Evan not saying so long and thanks for all the shells at 25 knots while racing back to Grand Fleet?
Michael
Issue here is why are the Germans able to get the battle to such short range? Why is Thomas-Evan not saying so long and thanks for all the shells at 25 knots while racing back to Grand Fleet?
Michael
How about a hit to one of the embrasures? Still incredibly lucky, but less so than spalling. Regardless, I agree with you, no golden BBs needed here, they can be wrecked though their lower armored areas.
As per getting close, well if Lion goes up spectacularly, would there be enough of a cloud that Evan-Thomas wouldn't know how close he was getting? Add in confusion from Pakenham taking command, and it buys a little more space. One thing I don't know is, how good of a commander is Pakenham? Is he likely to freeze, or to pull a Beatty and issue a bad order?
I precisely intended the QE’s to get significantly below 10k so that the outcome was not depended on the Golden BB. There we seems aligned, question is if it realistic that the battle could get this close.
If you look at the opening post it is actually Packenham’s New Zealand that receive the bulk of the High sea fleets fire, about or shortly after the time he gets the command. Hence no orders are send from New Zealand.
As regards Evan Thomas he is under orders to follow the BC’s south. To decide to turn against orders when the remaining BC’s are sailing south, thereby surely sending them to their doom, is quite a decision to make during a confusing brawl.
It’s not surprising if he tries to get info and ponder the decision for a few minutes while New Zealand is still afloat
Please see my response to Miketr. It’s not an easy decision Evan-Thomas has to make.
Packenham is having New Zealand shot to pieces.
I have made a bit of an edit in the first update to make Even-Thomas decisions more understandable. Thanks for the advice, I think it makes more sense now and improved the POD.
BTW. Any suggestions as to who would command a reformed 1st battlecruiser squadron (HMS Australia, Indefatiguable, Indomitable and Inflexible) and battlesquadron consisting of Malaya, Queen ELisabeth and Valiant.
Beatty, Packenham, and Evan-Thomas are all gone.
BTW. Any suggestions as to who would command a reformed 1st battlecruiser squadron (HMS Australia, Indefatiguable, Indomitable and Inflexible) and battlesquadron consisting of Malaya, Queen ELisabeth and Valiant.
Beatty, Packenham, and Evan-Thomas are all gone.
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If the Battle of Jutland doesn't happen (As per OTL, at any rate), then I'd say Admiral Hood.
HMS Invincible is unaccounted for (3rd BC squadron was attached to the Main Fleet). So, there are Invincible, Inflexible, Indomitable, Indefatigable, and Australia available. Given what just happened to the scouting arm, I'd say that the remaining Queens would be attached to a battlecruiser squadron. So, let's say 1st Battlecruiser which is Invincible, Inflexible, Indomitable and Indefatigable (Admiral Hood), and 2nd Battlecruiser which is Australia, Queen Elizabeth, Valiant, and Malaya (Admiral Arbuthnot)
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Captain was sick, and the replacement thought it a silly superstition?