The betrayal of the Kaiserliche Marine and the resurrection of the Reichsmarine

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by Gudestein, May 12, 2019.

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  1. Confederate Liberal Well-Known Member

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    Virginia
    Good update I love the idea of lines built as carriers. I just wanted to say good job before others point out everything wrong with it.
     
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  2. weasel_airlift Well-Known Member

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    May 5, 2016
    Not a bad idea, but they'll need to do something about that weight. It's a severe disadvantage in storms in the North Atlantic. What speeds can they achieve? 28 knots is a bare minimum, and they leaves them vulnerable to the RN's countless cruisers. I imagine that 40mm belt will be vulnerable to everything.
     
  3. Gudestein Nobody wants a Notler

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2014
    These are the official values.
    And I mean overweight in relation to ToV. I edited it and wrote it more precisely.
    I’ll describe their pre and post upgrade characteristics later.
    But think of the hipper class. Fine 10000 tons ships.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2019
  4. Colonel flagg Banned

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    Apr 4, 2019
    How strong German navy?
     
  5. Threadmarks: Chapter 29: Financial crisis and recovery.

    Gudestein Nobody wants a Notler

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2014
    Financial crisis and recovery: When the stockmarket crash hit the world economies in 1929 the German shipyards were booming with orders, several of them government or government supported private orders, and the German shipping industry would not slow down until 1930. The restrictions on global trade which followed the great depression hit everyone hard, but he shipping industry least. It was believed that German diesel engines could propel cruise ships at a superior fuel economy and orders were made to construct both a series of 3 220 m and 25000 tons liners for the east-asia routes and another pair of major liners that would become known as Hamburg and Kiel. These were laid in response to rumors concerning the Normandie. These liners increased in size to 60000 tons, but also in speed to 32 knots. Each of the ships were build of the same philosophy, a carrier first and then a liner designed in the empty hull and on top of it. The tactical mission for the smaller liner was to carry a small airgroup, one squadron of fighters, one of torpedo bombers/scouts and surpluss of fuel. Once converted, they would be on missions with the panzerschiffe, two panzerschiffe to each scout carrier. Such large orders would maintain the German shipping industry until the updated design of the last the allowed two new panzerschiffe were laid down in 1932, following the rearmaments programme under Schleicher. This meant that when the 1932 building programme later became commissioned and the planned upgrade installed, the last of these upgrades initiated following the Anglo-German Naval Agreement of 1935, Germany would have build up to the limits if the ToV with:

    6 armored cruisers, 17000 tons (officially 10000 tons, but actually launched at 13500 tons. Additional engines, armor and heavier guns added later) tons, 3x2 283 mm guns, 1x2 aft 150 mm DP gun, 8x1 150 mm DP guns. Armor of 150+40 mm belt and 80mm upper deck + 40 mm lower deck armor.

    6 light cruisers; 8676 tons standard, 4x2 150 mm DP guns, 100 mm belt armor and a 50 mm inclined inner splinter belt, and 30 mm deck armor and 50 mm lower deck armor over engines and magazines

    Added to these were the 12 800 tons destroyers with 3x1 128 mm DP guns (this gun type would be quite popular on German auxillary ships).

    Germany could further count on 4 massive liners designed for conversion into fleet carriers, 3 similar yet smallerliners intended as reconnaissance carriers and 6 fleet support ships that currently served as domestic transports. Indeed, the Germans had hit the early-mid 1930's to the limit of the ToV. As onrignally intended by the late admiral Scheer they would even hit he limit poised for more. Indeed, the major asset for the Germans were however the mature shipbuilding, design, propulsion, armors and weapons industry, an industry that would be stretched to the limits in the years to come.
     
  6. weasel_airlift Well-Known Member

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    May 5, 2016
    Larger guns than 283 mm?

    800 tons is itty bitty. The Clemsons were 50% larger.
     
  7. Gudestein Nobody wants a Notler

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    Sep 29, 2014
    These numbers are post upgrade. The first were made with 206 mm triplets made for the same barbette.
    A mixture between OTL Graf Spee and the D class design but with 3x2 guns. the 3x206 mm guns will find other uses.
    The Destroyers are as much they could make at 600 tons official... They are for the baltic and north sea. OTL they called them motortorpedoboote. ITTL they got some better guns.
     
  8. Threadmarks: Chapter 30, TTL Shipdesigns part 1

    Gudestein Nobody wants a Notler

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    Sep 29, 2014
    Chapter 30, shipdesigns
    First update with CVL's and the future cruisers to be made with left-over turrets from TTL heavy cruisers.

    NB, all are made with 50% of engine weight, and an expected double range.
    Note the sea keeping attributes are at roughly 27knots. They are a bit wet at 33 knots.
    These adaptations are made because of that is more than the diesels would weigh and comsume ITTL.
    Here are some of the ships from this TL.
    These assumtions are based on uninterrupted highly prioritized diesel engine development. Here is a description of the OTL progress sometimes prioritized, sometimes not. See what they got to in the 1940's and remember, the Germans (were about o) reach a standard that would last to the 1970's.
    https://oldmachinepress.com/2017/12/20/man-double-acting-diesel-marine-engines/

    Germany CVL laid down 1926
    Displacement:
    8.052 t light; 8.423 t standard; 10.566 t normal; 12.281 t full load
    Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
    (597,76 ft / 574,15 ft) x 52,49 ft x (22,31 / 25,16 ft)
    (182,20 m / 175,00 m) x 16,00 m x (6,80 / 7,67 m)
    Armament:
    8 - 5,91" / 150 mm 45,0 cal guns - 103,86lbs / 47,11kg shells, 300 per gun
    Dual purpose guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1926 Model
    4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
    12 - 2,17" / 55,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 5,12lbs / 2,32kg shells, 500 per gun
    Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1926 Model
    4 x Twin mounts on centreline, aft deck forward
    2 x Twin mounts on centreline, forward deck aft
    36 - 0,79" / 20,0 mm 65,0 cal guns - 0,27lbs / 0,12kg shells, 750 per gun
    Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1926 Model
    18 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
    6 raised mounts
    Weight of broadside 902 lbs / 409 kg
    Main Torpedoes
    12 - 23,6" / 600 mm, 29,53 ft / 9,00 m torpedoes - 2,346 t each, 28,148 t total
    In 4 sets of deck mounted centre rotating tubes
    2nd Torpedoes
    8 - 23,6" / 600 mm, 29,53 ft / 9,00 m torpedoes - 2,346 t each, 18,766 t total
    In 4 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes
    Mines
    20 - 1.102,31 lbs / 500,00 kg mines + 2 reloads - 10,826 t total
    in Above water - Stern racks/rails
    Armour:
    - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
    Main: 5,91" / 150 mm 308,40 ft / 94,00 m 11,42 ft / 3,48 m
    Ends: 1,97" / 50 mm 236,19 ft / 71,99 m 8,14 ft / 2,48 m
    29,56 ft / 9,01 m Unarmoured ends
    Upper: 3,94" / 100 mm 308,40 ft / 94,00 m 8,01 ft / 2,44 m
    Main Belt covers 83 % of normal length
    - Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
    1,77" / 45 mm 308,40 ft / 94,00 m 18,27 ft / 5,57 m
    Beam between torpedo bulkheads 39,37 ft / 12,00 m
    - Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
    Main: 5,91" / 150 mm 3,15" / 80 mm 1,97" / 50 mm
    2nd: 0,79" / 20 mm 0,39" / 10 mm 0,39" / 10 mm
    3rd: 0,79" / 20 mm 0,39" / 10 mm 0,39" / 10 mm
    - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
    For and Aft decks: 3,15" / 80 mm
    Forecastle: 0,39" / 10 mm Quarter deck: 0,39" / 10 mm
    - Conning towers: Forward 5,12" / 130 mm, Aft 1,97" / 50 mm
    Machinery:
    Diesel Internal combustion motors,
    No drive to shaft, 4 shafts, 50.586 shp (101000)/ 37.737 Kw = 27,76 (33)kts
    Range 18.000nm at 19,00 kts
    Bunker at max displacement = 3.858 tons
    Complement:
    520 - 677
    Cost:
    £2,063 million / $8,254 million
    Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
    Armament: 381 tons, 3,6 %
    - Guns: 274 tons, 2,6 %
    - Weapons: 107 tons, 1,0 %
    Armour: 3.100 tons, 29,3 %
    - Belts: 1.420 tons, 13,4 %
    - Torpedo bulkhead: 369 tons, 3,5 %
    - Armament: 289 tons, 2,7 %
    - Armour Deck: 947 tons, 9,0 %
    - Conning Towers: 74 tons, 0,7 %
    Machinery: 1.619 tons, 15,3 %
    Hull, fittings & equipment: 2.851 tons, 27,0 %
    Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2.514 tons, 23,8 %
    Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0,9 %
    - Above deck: 100 tons
    Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
    Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
    17.175 lbs / 7.790 Kg = 166,8 x 5,9 " / 150 mm shells or 1,8 torpedoes
    Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,11
    Metacentric height 2,3 ft / 0,7 m
    Roll period: 14,4 seconds
    Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
    - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,26
    Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,18
    Hull form characteristics:
    Hull has a flush deck,
    an extended bulbous bow and a cruiser stern
    Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,550 / 0,567
    Length to Beam Ratio: 10,94 : 1
    'Natural speed' for length: 23,96 kts
    Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
    Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
    Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30,00 degrees
    Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
    Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
    Fore end, Aft end
    - Forecastle: 25,00 %, 29,53 ft / 9,00 m, 17,06 ft / 5,20 m
    - Forward deck: 30,00 %, 17,06 ft / 5,20 m, 13,78 ft / 4,20 m
    - Aft deck: 25,00 %, 13,78 ft / 4,20 m, 13,78 ft / 4,20 m
    - Quarter deck: 20,00 %, 13,78 ft / 4,20 m, 14,76 ft / 4,50 m
    - Average freeboard: 16,44 ft / 5,01 m
    Ship space, strength and comments:
    Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 79,3 %
    - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 74,7 %
    Waterplane Area: 21.034 Square feet or 1.954 Square metres
    Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 145 %
    Structure weight / hull surface area: 86 lbs/sq ft or 422 Kg/sq metre
    Hull strength (Relative):
    - Cross-sectional: 1,00
    - Longitudinal: 1,00
    - Overall: 1,00
    Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
    Cramped accommodation and workspace room



    ATL Hipper Class, Germany Heavy cruisers laid down two per year 1935-7 to reuse the 206 mm gun turrets from TTL Deutschlands.
    Displacement:
    12.942 t light; 13.651 t standard; 15.305 t normal; 16.629 t full load
    Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
    (668,55 ft / 646,33 ft) x 65,62 ft x (22,97 / 24,49 ft)
    (203,77 m / 197,00 m) x 20,00 m x (7,00 / 7,47 m)
    Armament:
    6 - 8,11" / 206 mm 55,0 cal guns - 287,91lbs / 130,59kg shells, 150 per gun
    Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1936 Model
    2 x 3-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
    12 - 5,91" / 150 mm 55,0 cal guns - 111,15lbs / 50,42kg shells, 300 per gun
    Dual purpose guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1936 Model
    2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
    2 raised mounts - superfiring
    8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
    12 - 2,17" / 55,0 mm 55,0 cal guns - 5,48lbs / 2,49kg shells, 500 per gun
    Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1936 Model
    4 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
    2 raised mounts
    2 x 2 row twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
    2 double raised mounts
    36 - 1,18" / 30,0 mm 65,0 cal guns - 0,91lbs / 0,41kg shells, 1.000 per gun
    Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1936 Model
    14 x Twin mounts layout not set
    8 raised mounts
    4 x Twin mounts on centreline, forward deck aft
    4 double raised mounts
    Weight of broadside 3.160 lbs / 1.433 kg
    Main Torpedoes
    12 - 23,6" / 600 mm, 29,53 ft / 9,00 m torpedoes - 2,394 t each, 28,724 t total
    In 4 sets of deck mounted centre rotating tubes
    Mines
    12 - 1.102,31 lbs / 500,00 kg mines + 4 reloads - 7,874 t total
    in Above water - Stern racks/rails
    Armour:
    - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
    Main: 7,09" / 180 mm 426,51 ft / 130,00 m 16,27 ft / 4,96 m
    Ends: 1,97" / 50 mm 229,63 ft / 69,99 m 9,71 ft / 2,96 m
    Upper: 1,97" / 50 mm 426,51 ft / 130,00 m 8,01 ft / 2,44 m
    Main Belt covers 102 % of normal length
    - Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
    0,79" / 20 mm 426,51 ft / 130,00 m 21,10 ft / 6,43 m
    Beam between torpedo bulkheads 52,49 ft / 16,00 m
    - Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
    Main: 7,87" / 200 mm 3,94" / 100 mm 5,91" / 150 mm
    2nd: 3,94" / 100 mm 1,97" / 50 mm 1,97" / 50 mm
    3rd: 1,18" / 30 mm 0,79" / 20 mm -
    4th: 1,18" / 30 mm 0,79" / 20 mm -
    - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
    For and Aft decks: 3,15" / 80 mm
    Forecastle: 0,79" / 20 mm Quarter deck: 0,79" / 20 mm
    - Conning towers: Forward 5,91" / 150 mm, Aft 1,97" / 50 mm
    Machinery:
    Diesel Internal combustion motors,
    Direct drive, 3 shafts, 58.031 shp (117000)/ 43.291 Kw = 27,76 (33) kts
    Range 6.000 (12000)nm at 19,00 kts
    Bunker at max displacement = 2.977 tons
    Complement:
    520 - 677
    Cost:
    £2,063 million / $8,254 million
    Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
    Armament: 382 tons, 3,6 %
    - Guns: 274 tons, 2,6 %
    - Weapons: 108 tons, 1,0 %
    Armour: 3.098 tons, 29,3 %
    - Belts: 1.419 tons, 13,4 %
    - Torpedo bulkhead: 369 tons, 3,5 %
    - Armament: 289 tons, 2,7 %
    - Armour Deck: 947 tons, 9,0 %
    - Conning Towers: 74 tons, 0,7 %
    Machinery: 1.619 tons, 15,3 %
    Hull, fittings & equipment: 2.853 tons, 27,0 %
    Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2.514 tons, 23,8 %
    Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0,9 %
    - Above deck: 100 tons
    Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
    Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
    17.182 lbs / 7.794 Kg = 166,9 x 5,9 " / 150 mm shells or 1,8 torpedoes
    Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,11
    Metacentric height 2,3 ft / 0,7 m
    Roll period: 14,4 seconds
    Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
    - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,26
    Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,18
    Hull form characteristics:
    Hull has a flush deck,
    an extended bulbous bow and a cruiser stern
    Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,550 / 0,567
    Length to Beam Ratio: 10,94 : 1
    'Natural speed' for length: 23,96 kts
    Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
    Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
    Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30,00 degrees
    Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
    Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
    Fore end, Aft end
    - Forecastle: 25,00 %, 29,53 ft / 9,00 m, 17,06 ft / 5,20 m
    - Forward deck: 30,00 %, 17,06 ft / 5,20 m, 13,78 ft / 4,20 m
    - Aft deck: 25,00 %, 13,78 ft / 4,20 m, 13,78 ft / 4,20 m
    - Quarter deck: 20,00 %, 13,78 ft / 4,20 m, 14,76 ft / 4,50 m
    - Average freeboard: 16,44 ft / 5,01 m
    Ship space, strength and comments:
    Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 79,3 %
    - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 74,7 %
    Waterplane Area: 21.034 Square feet or 1.954 Square metres
    Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 145 %
    Structure weight / hull surface area: 86 lbs/sq ft or 422 Kg/sq metre
    Hull strength (Relative):
    - Cross-sectional: 1,00
    - Longitudinal: 1,00
    - Overall: 1,00
    Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
    Cramped accommodation and workspace room
     
  9. Threadmarks: Chapter 31: Nazi take over

    Gudestein Nobody wants a Notler

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2014
    Chapter 31: Nazi take over

    When Hitler came to power, Admiral Raeder had already aligned plans with the Nazi party leader Adolf Hitler. The role of the German Kriegsmarine would be secondary to the land and air forces, but by no means without priority. What prevented an outright expansion were the need to delay and prevent British countermeasures in their own shipping industry and to early flaunt objective breaks of the ToV.

    Thus, the first initiatives were the rapid construction of a further 6 supply ships, these built for 31 knots top speed at the onset, and the laying down of 6 destroyers to officially replace the Raubvogle motortorpedo boats. Coming in at 2500 tons they would not fool anyone when commissioned, but this deliberately delayed while they were being fitted out. The existing production of the fast supply ships with almost cruiser like hulls and their actual use as fast, yet fuel economic merchant ships, would also come a long way in hiding the purpose of the second set of expansions. These were 6 cruisers intended to use each of the 3x206 mm gun turrets that would be left over when the Panzer ships were upgraded with 2x283 mm guns (TTL Hipper class, see previous chapter).

    Orders were also now placed for the main guns and upgraded diesel engines for the Kriegsmarines existing ships that would emerge as fearsome fighting machines in the years to come.

    More importantly for the future experience levels, two freighter’s was converted into small carriers, officially to supply the South Atlantic mail business then taking place with float planes.

    Carried out at the utmost secrecy, the components for large submarines designed with ample battery power and high powered turbo charged diesel electrics were being produced as were the additional orders of large diesels and 42 cm guns and turrets for Germany’s future battleships. Importantly, while this could not be initiated immediately, MAN and Krupp now received orders well into the end of the 30’s and would immediately expand their capacity to enable further growth ad building of capacity.
     
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  10. Guaro Well-Known Member

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    Feb 11, 2017
    Location:
    Modena
    Already hooked! Got a follower!
     
  11. Gudestein Nobody wants a Notler

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2014
    Thanks, glad you like it
     
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  12. Threadmarks: Chapter 32, shipdesigns continued

    Gudestein Nobody wants a Notler

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2014
    So this is the outline of the TTL German panzerships post upgrade.
    Again, range is doubled and speed recalculated after TTL engine power/weight.
    Seakeeping stats is at 26,8 knots.

    So not exactly a battlecruiser, but close, and it can hurt battlecruisers, but unlike battlecruisers, it cant hurt battleships. Equally importantly, a ship that might return relatively unharmed from fighting regular cruisers.


    Graf Spee, Germany Panzerschiffe laid down 1932
    Displacement:
    15.614 t light; 16.947 t standard; 19.908 t normal; 22.277 t full load
    Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
    (683,06 ft / 656,17 ft) x 68,24 ft x (29,53 / 32,17 ft)
    (208,20 m / 200,00 m) x 20,80 m x (9,00 / 9,81 m)
    Armament:
    6 - 11,02" / 280 mm 55,0 cal guns - 749,99lbs / 340,19kg shells, 200 per gun
    Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1932 Model
    3 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
    1 raised mount - superfiring
    4 - 5,91" / 150 mm 55,0 cal guns - 111,16lbs / 50,42kg shells, 500 per gun
    Dual purpose guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1932 Model
    2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
    2 raised mounts
    8 - 5,91" / 150 mm 55,0 cal guns - 111,16lbs / 50,42kg shells, 400 per gun
    Dual purpose guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1932 Model
    4 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
    16 - 2,17" / 55,0 mm 65,0 cal guns - 5,62lbs / 2,55kg shells, 1.000 per gun
    Anti-air guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1932 Model
    8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
    4 raised mounts
    64 - 1,18" / 30,0 mm 65,0 cal guns - 0,90lbs / 0,41kg shells, 2.000 per gun
    Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1932 Model
    8 x Quad mounts on sides, evenly spread
    8 x Quad mounts on centreline, evenly spread
    8 double raised mounts
    Weight of broadside 5.982 lbs / 2.713 kg
    Main Torpedoes
    24 - 23,6" / 600 mm, 29,53 ft / 9,00 m torpedoes - 2,378 t each, 57,065 t total
    In 6 sets of deck mounted centre rotating tubes
    Armour:
    - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
    Main: 7,87" / 200 mm 393,70 ft / 120,00 m 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
    Ends: 1,97" / 50 mm 262,43 ft / 79,99 m 9,71 ft / 2,96 m
    Upper: 1,97" / 50 mm 393,70 ft / 120,00 m 8,01 ft / 2,44 m
    Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length
    - Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
    1,77" / 45 mm 393,70 ft / 120,00 m 26,64 ft / 8,12 m
    Beam between torpedo bulkheads 52,49 ft / 16,00 m
    - Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
    Main: 7,87" / 200 mm 3,94" / 100 mm 3,94" / 100 mm
    2nd: 3,94" / 100 mm 1,97" / 50 mm 1,97" / 50 mm
    3rd: 5,91" / 150 mm 3,94" / 100 mm 0,79" / 20 mm
    4th: 0,79" / 20 mm 0,39" / 10 mm 0,39" / 10 mm
    5th: 0,79" / 20 mm 0,39" / 10 mm 0,39" / 10 mm
    - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
    For and Aft decks: 3,94" / 100 mm
    Forecastle: 0,79" / 20 mm Quarter deck: 0,79" / 20 mm
    - Conning towers: Forward 7,87" / 200 mm, Aft 1,57" / 40 mm
    Machinery:
    Oil fired boilers, steam turbines, plus diesel motors,
    Electric cruising motors plus geared drives, 4 shafts, 117118 shp = 32,0 kts
    Range 16000 nm at 20,00 kts
    Bunker at max displacement = 5.330 tons
    Complement:
    837 - 1.089
    Cost:
    £6,665 million / $26,658 million
    Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
    Armament: 1.798 tons, 9,0 %
    - Guns: 1.684 tons, 8,5 %
    - Weapons: 114 tons, 0,6 %
    Armour: 5.708 tons, 28,7 %
    - Belts: 2.149 tons, 10,8 %
    - Torpedo bulkhead: 688 tons, 3,5 %
    - Armament: 830 tons, 4,2 %
    - Armour Deck: 1.892 tons, 9,5 %
    - Conning Towers: 150 tons, 0,8 %
    Machinery: 1.736 tons, 8,7 %
    Hull, fittings & equipment: 6.172 tons, 31,0 %
    Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4.294 tons, 21,6 %
    Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 1,0 %
    - On freeboard deck: 100 tons
    - Above deck: 100 tons
    Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
    Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
    29.545 lbs / 13.402 Kg = 44,1 x 11,0 " / 280 mm shells or 2,6 torpedoes
    Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,02
    Metacentric height 3,0 ft / 0,9 m
    Roll period: 16,7 seconds
    Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 63 %
    - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,99
    Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,40
    Hull form characteristics:
    Hull has raised forecastle,
    an extended bulbous bow and small transom stern
    Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,527 / 0,541
    Length to Beam Ratio: 9,62 : 1
    'Natural speed' for length: 27,48 kts
    Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
    Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 45
    Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30,00 degrees
    Stern overhang: 9,84 ft / 3,00 m
    Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
    Fore end, Aft end
    - Forecastle: 25,00 %, 29,53 ft / 9,00 m, 22,31 ft / 6,80 m
    - Forward deck: 30,00 %, 21,33 ft / 6,50 m, 17,72 ft / 5,40 m
    - Aft deck: 30,00 %, 17,72 ft / 5,40 m, 17,39 ft / 5,30 m
    - Quarter deck: 15,00 %, 17,39 ft / 5,30 m, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
    - Average freeboard: 20,20 ft / 6,16 m
    Ship space, strength and comments:
    Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81,3 %
    - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 79,2 %
    Waterplane Area: 31.330 Square feet or 2.911 Square metres
    Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 126 %
    Structure weight / hull surface area: 138 lbs/sq ft or 674 Kg/sq metre
    Hull strength (Relative):
    - Cross-sectional: 0,96
    - Longitudinal: 1,44
    - Overall: 1,00
    Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
    Cramped accommodation and workspace room
    Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
     
  13. Threadmarks: Chapter 33: Thoughts on battleship designs

    Gudestein Nobody wants a Notler

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2014
    Chapter 33: Thoughts on battleship designs

    With the ToV limitations set to be reached within a few years, Grossadmiral Raeder studied the options for the Battleships that would take the soon to be Kriegsmarine far beyond existing treaties. Some decisions had been locked in, such as the 42 cm, L55 gun (see chapter 24), in a two gun turret as well as the doctrine aimed at a future commerce war. The was several problems with this. The heavy gun aimed to beat the Admiral class easily, but would tick off other powers so a mock 3x14 inch gun were designed in the official description of the ship. The requirements of speed to evade superior forced, range to maintain operations in the Atlantic, armor to protect the waterline and hits from short range and torpedoes that might lead to loss of speed, as well as ample protection against long-range plunging fire, simply pulled in opposite directions and could never be combined in a ship of realistic size.



    The compromises chosen came down to medium and not extreme range. With the use of high powered diesels needed for speeds of 31 knots, this let to modest requirements for fuel stores. The building of fast supply ships that could follow the battle line had enabled this choice. The second major weight saving compromise was in the number of main guns. Regretfully, Raeder would reject the 4x2 armed proposal in favor of the 3x2 armed version, and as a compromise increase the number of shells carried in each magazine so with the expected speed/tactical advantage against most foes, it would have little impact on a long range engagement. The third “compromise” was on honesty, as the next battleships would come in at 45000 empty weight, again a direct violation of expected future international treaties. With regard to armor the citadel would be very well protected against up to 16 inch shells, and deck protection would also include long range plunging fire from the British 15 inch shells. Outside of the citadel, a relatively heavy waterline belt would extend for all of the length, and a modest low deck armor would protect against cruiser fire outside the citadel and subdivision would protect against the consequences of heavier shells. This layout would ensure that only serious bad luck would dramatically slow the ships in a long or short range engagement with its British foes. Also with only three main turrets, heavy armor had been possible to improve their resilience.

    As regards to secondaries, omitting a stern turret had made it possible to include a superfiring quadruple 15 cm DP turret (organized as two double turrets internally) and the choice had been made to include a similar turret at the Bow. With 5 double turrets lining the sides of the ships, the new battleship would feature an 18 15 cm DP gun broadside, thus enabling quick dispatch of smaller vessels and merchant ships.

    No compromise was made on the anti-aircraft fire and the battleships would receive the upcoming 55mm and 30 mm automatic anti-aircraft batteries. To provide space for the AA batteries and redundancy in the centralized fire control a decision was taken to omit the float planes and to position accessory small liaison ships at a bow and stern position relatively to the citadel.

    Raeder tried to think about it from all angles. Clearly, the ships would require air cover for scouting and he imagined them converge in pairs on opposing heavy units of the royal navy. In this way, the admittedly painful loss of the fourth turret would be largely mitigated.
     
  14. weasel_airlift Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2016
    If these ships are all supposed to be raiders, I feel like it would be best to have majority of guns aft. Especially the panzerschiff. They don't want to fight, they want to run. So, the main guns aft, maybe some 5.9 turrets forward for dealing with merchants and light escorts.
     
  15. Gudestein Nobody wants a Notler

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2014
    You have a fair point, but consider the very aggressive course the campaign took in WW1. These ships are build to beat up British escort cruisers while suffering limited damage from 15 cm and to a degree 20 cm guns, just as the BB’s are made to beat up vintage British Dreadnought’s.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2019 at 3:48 AM
  16. Threadmarks: Chapter 34: Real and fake ATL Bismarck class designs

    Gudestein Nobody wants a Notler

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2014
    Chapter 34: Real and fake ATL Bismarck class designs
    Two models designed in shipsharp with all its limitations. Modifications to speed and range with assigned weight as before.
    Notice that I would imagine an extended belt as per German OTL priorities. so with the 200 mm and 135 m's of additional belt, try to imagine it as 450 to 350 mm on 45 m's (eg. a full 180 m's with 350-450 mm belt) and then 100 mm until the bow and stern.
    Similar for the deck, try imagining the bow and stern belt as 45 m's as 130 mm and the rest 10. All values in addition to 20 mm of structural steel. All in all a fairly long citadel (180m) and a fairly short one were it is also tall (135m).


    Here is what the KM actually tries to construct:

    ATL Bismarck, Germany Fast battleship laid down 1935

    Displacement:
    47.365 t light; 50.948 t standard; 53.995 t normal; 56.432 t full load

    Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
    (908,05 ft / 885,83 ft) x 108,27 ft x (34,45 / 35,67 ft)
    (276,77 m / 270,00 m) x 33,00 m x (10,50 / 10,87 m)

    Armament:
    6 - 16,54" / 420 mm 55,0 cal guns - 2.440,05lbs / 1.106,79kg shells, 250 per gun
    Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1935 Model
    3 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
    1 raised mount - superfiring
    8 - 5,91" / 150 mm 55,0 cal guns - 111,15lbs / 50,42kg shells, 300 per gun
    Dual purpose guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1935 Model
    1 x 4-gun mount on centreline, aft deck centre
    1 raised mount
    1 x 4-gun mount on centreline, forward deck centre
    1 double raised mount
    20 - 5,91" / 150 mm 55,0 cal guns - 111,15lbs / 50,42kg shells, 200 per gun
    Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1935 Model
    10 x 2-gun mounts on sides, evenly spread
    4 raised mounts
    24 - 2,17" / 55,0 mm 65,0 cal guns - 5,63lbs / 2,55kg shells, 500 per gun
    Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1935 Model
    10 x Twin mounts layout not set
    6 raised mounts
    2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
    2 double raised mounts
    72 - 1,18" / 30,0 mm 65,0 cal guns - 0,91lbs / 0,41kg shells, 1.000 per gun
    Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1935 Model
    10 x Quad mounts layout not set
    4 raised mounts
    8 x Quad mounts on centreline, aft deck forward
    8 double raised mounts
    Weight of broadside 17.953 lbs / 8.144 kg

    Armour:
    - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
    Main: 17,7" / 450 mm 442,91 ft / 135,00 m 17,72 ft / 5,40 m
    Ends: 6,89" / 175 mm 442,88 ft / 134,99 m 12,66 ft / 3,86 m
    Upper: 3,94" / 100 mm 442,91 ft / 135,00 m 7,87 ft / 2,40 m
    Main Belt covers 77 % of normal length
    - Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
    1,77" / 45 mm 771,00 ft / 235,00 m 27,76 ft / 8,46 m
    Beam between torpedo bulkheads 75,49 ft / 23,01 m

    - Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
    Main: 17,7" / 450 mm 11,8" / 300 mm 11,8" / 300 mm
    2nd: 7,87" / 200 mm 5,91" / 150 mm 5,91" / 150 mm
    3rd: 5,91" / 150 mm 3,94" / 100 mm 3,94" / 100 mm
    4th: 1,18" / 30 mm 0,79" / 20 mm 0,39" / 10 mm
    5th: 1,18" / 30 mm 0,79" / 20 mm -

    - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
    For and Aft decks: 6,89" / 175 mm
    Forecastle: 1,97" / 50 mm Quarter deck: 1,97" / 50 mm
    - Conning towers: Forward 15,75" / 400 mm, Aft 1,97" / 50 mm
    Machinery:
    Diesel Internal combustion motors,
    Direct drive, 4 shafts, 195000 shp / 68.751 Kw = 31 kts
    Range 10.000nm at 19,00 kts
    Bunker at max displacement = 5.484 tons

    Complement:
    1.770 - 2.302

    Cost:
    £20,809 million / $83,237 million

    Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
    Armament: 4.683 tons, 8,7 %
    - Guns: 4.683 tons, 8,7 %
    Armour: 21.357 tons, 39,6 %
    - Belts: 8.227 tons, 15,2 %
    - Torpedo bulkhead: 1.403 tons, 2,6 %
    - Armament: 4.132 tons, 7,7 %
    - Armour Deck: 7.050 tons, 13,1 %
    - Conning Towers: 545 tons, 1,0 %
    Machinery: 2.618 tons, 4,8 %
    Hull, fittings & equipment: 18.507 tons, 34,3 %
    Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6.629 tons, 12,3 %
    Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 0,4 %
    - On freeboard deck: 100 tons
    - Above deck: 100 tons

    Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
    Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
    86.667 lbs / 39.311 Kg = 38,3 x 16,5 " / 420 mm shells or 15,4 torpedoes
    Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,00
    Metacentric height 5,6 ft / 1,7 m
    Roll period: 19,2 seconds
    Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 69 %
    - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,67
    Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,18

    Hull form characteristics:
    Hull has a flush deck,
    an extended bulbous bow and small transom stern
    Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,572 / 0,578
    Length to Beam Ratio: 8,18 : 1
    'Natural speed' for length: 32,08 kts
    Power going to wave formation at top speed: 40 %
    Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
    Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30,00 degrees
    Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
    Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
    Fore end, Aft end
    - Forecastle: 30,00 %, 32,81 ft / 10,00 m, 22,97 ft / 7,00 m
    - Forward deck: 30,00 %, 22,97 ft / 7,00 m, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
    - Aft deck: 20,00 %, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m, 18,04 ft / 5,50 m
    - Quarter deck: 20,00 %, 18,04 ft / 5,50 m, 19,03 ft / 5,80 m
    - Average freeboard: 21,95 ft / 6,69 m

    Ship space, strength and comments:
    Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 76,7 %
    - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 153,3 %
    Waterplane Area: 70.033 Square feet or 6.506 Square metres
    Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 116 %
    Structure weight / hull surface area: 215 lbs/sq ft or 1.051 Kg/sq metre
    Hull strength (Relative):
    - Cross-sectional: 1,04
    - Longitudinal: 0,98
    - Overall: 1,00
    Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
    Excellent accommodation and workspace room

    And here is the fake one:

    ATL Bismarck, Germany Fast battleship fake laid down 1935

    Displacement:
    35.901 t light; 38.069 t standard; 39.690 t normal; 40.986 t full load

    Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
    (908,05 ft / 885,83 ft) x 108,27 ft x (25,59 / 26,24 ft)
    (276,77 m / 270,00 m) x 33,00 m x (7,80 / 8,00 m)

    Armament:
    9 - 13,78" / 350 mm 45,0 cal guns - 1.319,35lbs / 598,45kg shells, 150 per gun
    Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1935 Model
    3 x 3-gun mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
    1 raised mount - superfiring
    8 - 5,91" / 150 mm 55,0 cal guns - 111,15lbs / 50,42kg shells, 300 per gun
    Dual purpose guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1935 Model
    1 x 4-gun mount on centreline, aft deck centre
    1 raised mount
    1 x 4-gun mount on centreline, forward deck centre
    1 double raised mount
    20 - 5,91" / 150 mm 55,0 cal guns - 111,15lbs / 50,42kg shells, 150 per gun
    Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1935 Model
    10 x 2-gun mounts on sides, evenly spread
    4 raised mounts
    24 - 2,17" / 55,0 mm 65,0 cal guns - 5,63lbs / 2,55kg shells, 450 per gun
    Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1935 Model
    10 x Twin mounts layout not set
    6 raised mounts
    2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
    2 double raised mounts
    72 - 1,18" / 30,0 mm 65,0 cal guns - 0,91lbs / 0,41kg shells, 500 per gun
    Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1935 Model
    10 x Quad mounts layout not set
    4 raised mounts
    8 x Quad mounts on centreline, aft deck forward
    8 double raised mounts
    Weight of broadside 15.187 lbs / 6.889 kg

    Armour:
    - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
    Main: 9,84" / 250 mm 442,91 ft / 135,00 m 12,66 ft / 3,86 m
    Ends: 3,94" / 100 mm 442,88 ft / 134,99 m 12,66 ft / 3,86 m
    Main Belt covers 77 % of normal length
    Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces
    - Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
    1,77" / 45 mm 442,91 ft / 135,00 m 27,76 ft / 8,46 m
    Beam between torpedo bulkheads 78,77 ft / 24,01 m

    - Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
    Main: 11,8" / 300 mm 7,87" / 200 mm 7,87" / 200 mm
    2nd: 7,87" / 200 mm 5,91" / 150 mm 5,91" / 150 mm
    3rd: 5,91" / 150 mm 3,94" / 100 mm 3,94" / 100 mm
    4th: 1,18" / 30 mm 0,79" / 20 mm 0,39" / 10 mm
    5th: 1,18" / 30 mm 0,79" / 20 mm -
    - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
    For and Aft decks: 3,54" / 90 mm
    Forecastle: 0,79" / 20 mm Quarter deck: 0,79" / 20 mm
    - Conning towers: Forward 7,87" / 200 mm, Aft 1,97" / 50 mm
    Machinery:
    Diesel Internal combustion motors,
    Direct drive, 4 shafts, 86.101 shp / 64.232 Kw = 26,69 kts (Probably claimed at 110000 shp and 28 knots)
    Range 5.000nm at 15,00 kts
    Bunker at max displacement = 2.916 tons

    Complement:
    1.405 - 1.827
    Cost:
    £15,792 million / $63,169 million

    Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
    Armament: 3.676 tons, 9,3 %
    - Guns: 3.676 tons, 9,3 %
    Armour: 10.980 tons, 27,7 %
    - Belts: 3.273 tons, 8,2 %
    - Torpedo bulkhead: 806 tons, 2,0 %
    - Armament: 3.140 tons, 7,9 %
    - Armour Deck: 3.515 tons, 8,9 %
    - Conning Towers: 247 tons, 0,6 %
    Machinery: 2.446 tons, 6,2 %
    Hull, fittings & equipment: 18.798 tons, 47,4 %
    Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3.789 tons, 9,5 %
    Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0 %

    Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
    Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
    76.518 lbs / 34.708 Kg = 58,5 x 13,8 " / 350 mm shells or 13,2 torpedoes
    Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,15
    Metacentric height 7,3 ft / 2,2 m
    Roll period: 16,8 seconds
    Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 54 %
    - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,49
    Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,08

    Hull form characteristics:
    Hull has a flush deck,
    a normal bow and small transom stern
    Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,566 / 0,570
    Length to Beam Ratio: 8,18 : 1
    'Natural speed' for length: 32,09 kts
    Power going to wave formation at top speed: 40 %
    Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
    Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30,00 degrees
    Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
    Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
    Fore end, Aft end
    - Forecastle: 30,00 %, 32,81 ft / 10,00 m, 22,97 ft / 7,00 m
    - Forward deck: 30,00 %, 22,97 ft / 7,00 m, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m
    - Aft deck: 20,00 %, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m, 18,04 ft / 5,50 m
    - Quarter deck: 20,00 %, 18,04 ft / 5,50 m, 19,03 ft / 5,80 m
    - Average freeboard: 21,95 ft / 6,69 m

    Ship space, strength and comments:
    Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 77,2 %
    - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 192,0 %
    Waterplane Area: 69.635 Square feet or 6.469 Square metres
    Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 131 %
    Structure weight / hull surface area: 230 lbs/sq ft or 1.124 Kg/sq metre
    Hull strength (Relative):
    - Cross-sectional: 1,17
    - Longitudinal: 0,95
    - Overall: 1,00
    Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
    Excellent accommodation and workspace room
     
  17. jonathan hanson Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2017
    I'd go with nine main guns minimum six just wouldn't be that effective in a surface engagement whenever you would be ran down by a enemy force
     
    Eternity likes this.
  18. Gudestein Nobody wants a Notler

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2014
    I agree that this is a painful compromise. And also the reason why tactically, they would be hunting in pairs. However, with 31 knts, they are not likely to be run down, but unlike the Iowa which moved the belt internally (saving on deck armor) and can be damaged and lose buyancy to even destroyer guns, this ship have to dispatch royal navy cruisers and destroyers without a significant scratch. Essentially, it also can pick its fights with all existing Royal Navy ships and get critical hits with its own guns, while suffering superficial damage in return under the right circumstances. The alternative, eg 9 350 mm could not expect to dispatch critical hits and going with 9 420 mm hits means it would suffer on armor and would receive critical hits.

    Notice the storage of 250 large shells, thats basically double up on anybody else so it can do the 25-30 km range game for extended periods of time while beeing the only one getting critical hits.
     
    Confederate Liberal likes this.
  19. jonathan hanson Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2017
    Ok I think I understand where you're coming from
     
  20. Gudestein Nobody wants a Notler

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2014
    The overall philosophy is to have a niche were each ship category can beat its counterpart in the RN with low loss probability. Basically, negate the RN numerical advantage by avoiding the attrition seen in WW1.
     
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