The Best Possible T-34 / panzer hybrid

Cryptic

The greenlight had finally come after Stalingrad. Everyone knew that the T-34 design was good and captured examples had been used on an ad hoc basis sine the invasion. Now, the Wermacht was screaming for tanks and the next generation Panthers and Tiger were a long way off. German pride was swallowed and captured T-34s are to be used en mass for first line tank on tank combat.

Doctor Tankenhoph studied the plan. Every possible salvagable T-34 or component there of was to be shipped to Riga for complete refurbishment by local Latvians under German direction. The refurbished tanks are then sent to Germany for modification.

Now, thought Tankenkoph, the fun starts...

-The two man turrent needs to go, but what to replace it with?
-What about the Soviet main gun? The first impulse is to replace it with with a German gun, but then maybe...
-German optics and radios are a must. Tankenkoph is amazed that most capured examples lack even a soviet radio
-The engine is excellent, but the gear box is crude. Maybe add a German gearbox, or would this be too difficult....

What would be the best possible hybrid?
 
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YLi

What the Germans really need is a version of the Panther with rear sprocket drive and a suspension bolted onto the sides. That version of the Panther would mount the 88/71 and be able to kill anything in pretty much a single hit.
 

AdA

trekchu said:
Loose the 85, and put the long 75 from the Panther in it (more for ease of supply than anyhting else) along with German optics and I agree.
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The T34 that were captured would be 76s so no room for the 85mm or the German 75/70. Most economical use would just be to fit German radios and improve the optics. A good recovery program would create a large source of spare parts. The Italians planned to build a italianized version of the T34 diesel for their P35/43, so they could build it for use a spare engines as well.
Best possible use for the tanks? Ship them all to North Africa. No recognition issues, and a T34/76 equiped Ariete would be interesting...
 

Cryptic

AdA said:
The T34 that were captured would be 76s so no room for the 85mm or the German 75/70. ..
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Could the Germans replace the entire turret with a German turret and main gun? Or, maybe even a French turret and German main gun?

I am thinking that while the Germans were willing to use captured T-34s ad hoc for infantry support, they would never accept the soviet turret design (very cramped and commander doubles as gunner) for en mass use in tank on tank situations.
 

alspug

as good as the t 34 was it had some serious flaws . the single best component in my opinion was the engine . it was the best tank engine in the world at the time . the sloped armour was good however not infallible . the turret was woefull . suspension was good . the gun depending upon version was acceptable . my suggestion keep the engine work out how to make it . use a similar suspension . make a turret able to take the l 48 7.5 cm and a l 70 7.5 cm later . then mass produce.
 

colleen1227

The main problem and the one that stopped a direct copy of the T 34 was its aluminum 12 cylinder engine. The German could not produce it due to material shortages .
 

strangeland

The easiest thing would be to just fit out the captured T-34s with German optics and radios, ship off as many as possible to North Africa and Western Europe where there are no recognition issues. For ones that stay on the Eastern front, add some cheap plywood add-ons or slat armor to differentiate it from Soviet T-34s. For the gun, just set up some factories to produce 76 mm ammunition.

Of course, this is World War II Germany we're talking about, so rather than finding the easiest, most efficient solution, they're much more likely to go for the over-engineered crap approach. This would probably entail trying to fix all the T-34's flaws by putting in as many German parts as possible, which might well end up being more expensive than just building a new tank from scratch. Germany had the best engineers in the world in 1941, and it was not to their benefit.

An additional problem was that the T-34, like many Soviet weapons systems, was an excellent design marred by shoddy production values, poor quality control, and rushed workmanship. It was a great tank, and the best in the world when it debuted, but seriously, no man-made object deserves the accolades that thing gets.
 
NORGCO

NORGCO

strangeland said:
The easiest thing would be to just fit out the captured T-34s with German optics and radios, ship off as many as possible to North Africa and Western Europe where there are no recognition issues. For ones that stay on the Eastern front, add some cheap plywood add-ons or slat armor to differentiate it from Soviet T-34s. For the gun, just set up some factories to produce 76 mm ammunition.
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Yes definitely, the troops needed something to fight with NOW DAMNIT, not the perfect tank at some point in the future. Make the minimum changes needed - the ones mentioned would make a dramatic difference, be quick while not strain resources overly - and ship them where needed.

I can see the thinking behind sending them to France and/or North Africa, the troops in Western Europe would have something more than adequate against British and American tanks and the minimal spares would not be a crisis since they were not currently fighting, just showing a tough face to keep the Allies from getting any funny ideas. I have seen pictures of Russian 76mm artillery captured from Afrika Corps in Tunisia, so it would not have been a radically new idea. The invasion defences included a lot of captured equipment with limited ammunition etc, as I understand it.

The German tanks that would have gone west could then be reserved for the Russian front, increasing their tank strength without adding another logistical headache in the east.
 
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AdA

Cryptic said:
Could the Germans replace the entire turret with a German turret and main gun? Or, maybe even a French turret and German main gun?

I am thinking that while the Germans were willing to use captured T-34s ad hoc for infantry support, they would never accept the soviet turret design (very cramped and commander doubles as gunner) for en mass use in tank on tank situations.
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Possibly. I don't see wich French turret you're thinking about. The one they had lot of was the 47mm APX but that was even more cramped, being a 1 and 1/2 men turret (not tyrion lannister, the loader was able to assist from a half in the turret half in the hull position). But more trouble than it was worth.
 

AdA

von hitchofen said:
quite a few, but not enough to be decisive

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=253161

http://beute.narod.ru/Beutepanzer/su/t-34/t-34early/t-34_41-42_1.htm

page one of 41 pages of b & w pictures of captured T-34s...
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Not enough for impact on russia, but 120 T34 in good running order, plus double that canibalized for spares, plus a properly set up training, maintenance and reapair facility in Lybia, and you have Ariete kicking ass instead of providing desert decoration with burned out M14/41...
Worth the trouble of packing everything in returning empty railway cars across Europe and shipping the lot to Africa.
 

bsmart111

To answer a few questions that have come up

Yes the Germans used captured T-34s, they captured enough of them that it was given a german designation (as were many other captured tanks that were put into German service.) I have the designation in books at home I'll try and remember to look it up this evening.

Also the Germans made extensive use of captured Soviet 76.2 mm towed guns on all fronts. In fact the MarderIII was a self-propelled AT gun that used a Soviet 76.2mm gun mounted on a Czech Pz38 chassis. Eventually it was bored out to accept German 7.5cm (75mm) Pak40 rounds. The vehicle pictured at this link is part of the U.S. Army Ordinance Museum collection and was captured in North Africa by Commonwealth troops. When I used to give tours at the Museum I said " A Soviet Gun mounted on a Czech Chassis rechambered for German ammunition captured by the British Army from German forces in North Africa now sitting in an American museum. In one vehicle we have defined the complexity of global coallition warfare!"

http://battletanks.com/marder_iii.htm
 

AdA

colleen1227 said:
The main problem and the one that stopped a direct copy of the T 34 was its aluminum 12 cylinder engine. The German could not produce it due to material shortages .
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But the Italians planned to use it fr this:

P43bis-2.jpg
 
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