The Battleships that should have never been, 1930-1945!

The second pair of littorios. The four reconstructed battleships with the first two Littorios gave the RM as much firepower as it could use. Since the RM didn't have a doctrine that would lead to a large scale battle line vs Battle line engagment, the extra 2 BB should have been replaced. Two carriers would have made sense, and the RM had played with CV concepts enough since the late 20s to be able to build a decent design. IMO they didn't require a large 20.000 tons plus carrier, but 14000 to 15000 vessels designed primarily to carry fighter bombers would have proved quite useful. They might have been ready by 1942, in time to operate Re2001
 
This is exactly what I've said on other threads. You can put anyone on a ship. Put me on a carrier or battleship and I'm probably ok, put me on a destroyer or escort and I will be spending most of my time leaning over the rail 'feeding the fish' if you get my drift. Put me on a sub and I'd be psychotic in an hour.

I visited the sub in Philadelphia moored next to the Oregon back in the 90's. The sub was empty except for two guides, one at each end. I was with my ship's second mate, we were the only two visitors. The sub was not loaded for a war patrol, with so many crates shoved in that you had to crawl on top of them to get from one part of the sub to another. Both main hatches were open. And even then I was was getting more claustrophobic by the minute.

So no, being a submariner is something special. And I salute those who can do it and do because I sure as hell couldn't...

You get extra pay for being a submariner and the subs that carried aircraft also drew extra for being flight crew ;)
Still not interested? If the submarine is old and not maintained well, how would you feel about having to carry a piece of chalk with you to mark leaks that only show under pressure?
 
UK never started WW-II because more U-Boat were ordered. They started it because Hitler was beginning his conquest of Europe....quite a bit more important.
The pre-War RN thought they had submarines beat as they had perfected ASDIC (Sonar). Note that the RN agreed to equality in submarine tonnage with the Germans in the Anglo-German Naval Agreement. ASDIC was secret, the equipment covered up and referred to as 'Asdevite'. Its limitations weren't found out till later although the Germans also thought that the RN had beaten the submarine menace too.
 
UK never started WW-II because more U-Boat were ordered. They started it because Hitler was beginning his conquest of Europe....quite a bit more important.

No my point is that Britain went to great lengths to make sure that Germany did not build too many U-boats by signing them up to the Anglo-German Naval treaty which limited them to 35% of all warship numbers/tonnage etc except U-Boats where they were allowed 45% parity with the UK - this constrained Germany to build a more balanced fleet that the RN could contain right up until Hitler ended the agreement effectively in 1939 by which point it had achieved its job.

If the Germans do not abide by the agreement and go for a navy in the late 30s whose only real use is to blockade the UK then expect a more proactive response from the UK!
 
real life doesn't work with this kind of game statistics
considering there have been loads of ships that exceed those stats by a wide margin

Amazing. Every word you just said... was wrong

Those are real life statistics, developed by those managing the Admiralty after they had spent their careers at sea, rose to senior rank, and understood the real cost of seapower which is essentially the OP. Pretending that 35,000 tons of battleship equals 35,000 tons of submarines is the game.

I'll assume you've heard of the Washington Naval Treaty. If you read it, you'll see that it stipulated replacement ages for ships. Are you aware of the German Naval Laws that also stipulated replacement ages of ships? These were a reflection of ships reaching a technological age limit where they are death traps in combat against their opponents. Sure ships can last a long time as you point out - HMS Victory for instance but it's hardly up for modern combat. Most examples of ships in service way past their use-by-date are because Navy's can only afford the 4-7% annual operating cost and not the 20-25% replacement one off. Maintenance costs increase until they are too expensive or worse, a defect kills some of the crew and the ship is finally retired as unsafe.
 
Two carriers would have made sense, and the RM had played with CV concepts enough since the late 20s to be able to build a decent design. IMO they didn't require a large 20.000 tons plus carrier, but 14000 to 15000 vessels designed primarily to carry fighter bombers would have proved quite useful. They might have been ready by 1942, in time to operate Re2001

I think a basic land-based naval air arm doctrine and some resources to accomplish it would be more efficient, and probably a pre-requisite anyway.
 
The second pair of littorios. The four reconstructed battleships with the first two Littorios gave the RM as much firepower as it could use. Since the RM didn't have a doctrine that would lead to a large scale battle line vs Battle line engagment, the extra 2 BB should have been replaced. Two carriers would have made sense, and the RM had played with CV concepts enough since the late 20s to be able to build a decent design. IMO they didn't require a large 20.000 tons plus carrier, but 14000 to 15000 vessels designed primarily to carry fighter bombers would have proved quite useful. They might have been ready by 1942, in time to operate Re2001

I would say that the later 2 rebuilds were the main problem

The italian industry struggled to support the first 2 Littorios and the last of the 2 rebuilds at the same time

The rebuilds were cleaver and well done but they were fodder to the British rebuilds.

Scrap the last 2 rebuilds and focus on the first 2 getting them in commission earlier and then focus on the last 2 units.

Italy did not need an Aircraft carrier it had airbases all throughout the central Med.
 
Oh I have just thought of an obvious one

HMS Vanguard - intended to provide the UK with a quickly built 'cheap' fast BB by reusing old 15" turrets etc

She turned out to be neither quickly built not cheap and was completed after the war and often referred to as the Great White Elephant

Either continue one or both of the 2 Lions (both halted on the outbreak of war and already partially built) or plunge those resources into finishing the Armoured Carriers (I would prefer the latter) which were delayed as a result of the need for escorts and this new BB

I think the obvious Battleship that should never have been was HMS Vanguard. By the time she was laid down the writing was on the wall for Battleships. Use the resources put into her to build the third Audacious class. The KGV's could do anything she could just as well, and she only lasted a couple of years longer than they did.

Ninja'd
Agree on an extra Audacious instead of Vanguard. The Colossus/Majestic class also turned out to be neither quickly built (not as quickly built as intended) and completed too late to see service in WWII.

OTL the RN ordered 9 battleships 1936-39 as follows: 2-3-2-2 and laid them down 0-5-0-2. The plan in 1935-36 for aircraft carriers was to order 8 over the same period as the battleships, i.e. 2-2-2-2. In the event this was scaled back to six 2-2-1-1. With hindsight the 7th and 8th planned armoured carriers should have been laid down in 1939 instead of Lion and Temeraire. Suspended and then resumed instead of laying down Eagle and Ark Royal. They wouldn't have been as good as Eagle and Ark Royal, but would have been completed in time to serve in the war.

More radically if I'd been the Admiralty in 1935-36 I would have decided to lay down 9 Illustrious class aircraft carriers in 1937 instead of 4 and the 5 KGVs of OTL. The estimated cost of a KGV was £7.5m, the estimated cost of an Illustrious was £4m. That's £53.5m v £36. The difference of £17.5m would be spent on buying the extra aircraft and training the extra aircrew required.

The 2 ships built instead of KGV and PoW should be completed in the first half of 1940 because they were laid down before Illustrious which was completed in May 1940. DoY, Anson and Howe were laid down at about the same time as Formidable and Victorious and therefore the 3 aircraft carriers build in their place complete between November 1940 and May 1941.
 
Taking things back to 1930, when Japan pulls out of the LoN over the Manchurian incident then GB abrogates the 1930 London treaty. Ships C,D, E and F are immediately laid down as per the original Washington Treaty schedule in 1932. These will all be Vanguard style ships using the spare turrets from Glorious and Courageous and the turrets from QE, Warspite and Barham as E and F were to replace these ships. The 4 new ships enter service in 1935. New 16" guns and turrets are ordered for ships G, H, I and J to be laid down 1933 (G), 1934 (H and I) and 1935 (J). These ships enter service 1936,37 and 38 to replace Malaya, Royal Sovereign, Revenge and Royal Oak. Another group of Vanguards begin as K (1936), L (1936), M (1937) and N (1938). (enter service 1939-40). As war clouds are gathering, new 16" armed ships are ordered to replace Valiant and Ramillies (O, P and Q) (enter service 1941-42) leaving Repulse, Renown and Hood to be refitted.
The warmed up industry takes a new order for a 'fully armoured Battlecruiser' for Australia (they offered) and orders for 3 from the Dutch for the same type of ship (enter service 1940-41).

RN enters WW2 with a new, modern and up-to-date battle fleet.
 
The pre-War RN thought they had submarines beat as they had perfected ASDIC (Sonar). Note that the RN agreed to equality in submarine tonnage with the Germans in the Anglo-German Naval Agreement. ASDIC was secret, the equipment covered up and referred to as 'Asdevite'. Its limitations weren't found out till later although the Germans also thought that the RN had beaten the submarine menace too.
I’d like to point out that this is an accurate statement, that the 45% in submarines already stands out, and that submarines could do a perfectly fine job as scouts and blockading France. More or less the official policy of the KM since the Deutschlands were build.
With thos facts in mind even a few BB’s (fleet-in-beeing) or other commerce raiders stronger than cruisers may Seem worse for an Empire who would also like to cover the med and the far east.
 
More radically if I'd been the Admiralty in 1935-36 I would have decided to lay down 9 Illustrious class aircraft carriers in 1937 instead of 4 and the 5 KGVs of OTL.
I think you would be in very brig trouble come the Bismark sortie...... GB only had three fast ships and R&R (and even Hood to a lesser extent) simply don't cut it against modern fast ships.
 
I think you would be in very brig trouble come the Bismark sortie...... GB only had three fast ships and R&R (and even Hood to a lesser extent) simply don't cut it against modern fast ships.
I'd prefer more Ark Royals and jump start the naval aircraft industry into supplying full air complements. And whoever thought of the turret armed fighter? Shoot them.
 
Taking things back to 1930, when Japan pulls out of the LoN over the Manchurian incident then GB abrogates the 1930 London treaty. Ships C,D, E and F are immediately laid down as per the original Washington Treaty schedule in 1932. These will all be Vanguard style ships using the spare turrets from Glorious and Courageous and the turrets from QE, Warspite and Barham as E and F were to replace these ships. The 4 new ships enter service in 1935. New 16" guns and turrets are ordered for ships G, H, I and J to be laid down 1933 (G), 1934 (H and I) and 1935 (J). These ships enter service 1936,37 and 38 to replace Malaya, Royal Sovereign, Revenge and Royal Oak. Another group of Vanguards begin as K (1936), L (1936), M (1937) and N (1938). (enter service 1939-40). As war clouds are gathering, new 16" armed ships are ordered to replace Valiant and Ramillies (O, P and Q) (enter service 1941-42) leaving Repulse, Renown and Hood to be refitted.
The warmed up industry takes a new order for a 'fully armoured Battlecruiser' for Australia (they offered) and orders for 3 from the Dutch for the same type of ship (enter service 1940-41).

RN enters WW2 with a new, modern and up-to-date battle fleet.
Japan only pulled out on Feb. 24 1933?
Would GB not really have to give notice for the LNT (and prepare designs and long lead time items anyway) so we are talking about laying down in 35 minimum IMO. Not that this would not give RN a very strong fleet by 39.....
I'd prefer more Ark Royals and jump start the naval aircraft industry into supplying full air complements. And whoever thought of the turret armed fighter? Shoot them.
Prefer yes but in 37 or 36 when you have to make the decision you don't have airborne radar and cant know that you can sink a battleship at night in the Atlantic during northern hemisphere winter.....I simply think you then get into big trouble when Hood and an R class try to stop Bismark and fail what do you do escort every convoy with N or R?
 
with hindsight ... of WWI ... and in consideration of their available resources ... the KM could build Admiral Hipper-class with 11" guns following French Dunkerque-class all forward facing turrets. and nothing larger for BBs.
 
I think you would be in very brig trouble come the Bismark sortie...... GB only had three fast ships and R&R (and even Hood to a lesser extent) simply don't cut it against modern fast ships.
No trouble at all. The OTL Battle of the Denmark Strait does not happen. Instead Norfolk and Suffolk shadow Bismarck and Prinz Eugen until 24th May 1941 when they are sunk by an airstrike mounted by 4 Illustrious class aircraft carriers (Victorious, Alt-DoY, Alt-Anson and Alt-Howe).

It's the Battle of North Cape where I thought there might be a problem. Had DoY been an aircraft carrier were the weather conditions good enough for her aircraft to take off and land?
 
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PS

The Alt KGV and PoW completed early in 1940 are sent to Malta to work up. They take part in the Battle of Calabria with Eagle and as they are carrying 54 to 66 Swordfish between them instead of the 18 carried by Eagle they should score some hits on the Italian fleet.

Illustrious is still sent to the Mediterranean and the 72 Swordfish (including 18 borrowed from Eagle) carried by Illustrious, Alt-KGV and Alt-PoW attack Taranto.

All 3 ships are attacked by X. Fligerkorps off Malta in January 1941. All 3 ships are damaged, but less badly damaged than Illustrious was IOTL. This is due to 3 times as many fighters being in the air to meet the raid so fewer attacking aircraft got through and because the aircraft that did get through attacked all 3 ships instead of concentrating on one. All 3 ships were able to proceed to Alexandria and then the USA for repairs. There was no need for the interlude at Malta that Illustrious had to endure. The repairs were completed earlier than OTL due to the ships being less seriously damaged and arriving in the USA sooner. All 3 ships were back with the fleet by the end of September 1941.
 
Royal Navy Plan 1930 With Lots of Money Available Because Handwavium. *Admiralty 3-drums produce enough steam each for 20k shp.
Centurion - scrapped.
Iron Duke - Q turret removed, 4 Admiralty 3-drum boilers & geared turbines fitted, BL 14" Mark VIIs, QF 4" DP & light AA, bow extension a la RM superdreadnoughts.
Marlborough - Q turret removed, 4 Admiralty 3-drum boilers & geared turbines fitted, BL 14" Mark VIIs, QF 4" DP & light AA, bow extension a la RM superdreadnoughts.
Benbow - Q turret removed, 4 Admiralty 3-drum boilers & geared turbines fitted, BL 14" Mark VIIs, QF 4" DP & light AA, bow extension a la RM superdreadnoughts.
Emperor of India - Q turret removed, 4 Admiralty 3-drum boilers & geared turbines fitted, BL 14" Mark VIIs, QF 4" DP & light AA, bow extension a la RM superdreadnoughts.

Queen Elizabeth - lose casemate guns & magazines, develop 15"/50cal main gun with high elevation, fit 6 Admiralty 3-drum boilers & geared turbines, QF 4" AA and light AA.
Warspite - lose casemate guns & magazines, develop 15"/50cal main gun with high elevation, fit 6 Admiralty 3-drum boilers & geared turbines, QF 4" AA and light AA.
Valiant - lose casemate guns & magazines, develop 15"/50cal main gun with high elevation, fit 6 Admiralty 3-drum boilers & geared turbines, QF 4" AA and light AA.
Barham - lose casemate guns & magazines, develop 15"/50cal main gun with high elevation, fit 6 Admiralty 3-drum boilers & geared turbines, QF 4" AA and light AA.
Malaya - lose casemate guns & magazines, develop 15"/50cal main gun with high elevation, fit 6 Admiralty 3-drum boilers & geared turbines, QF 4" AA and light AA.

Revenge - scrap all but turrets and nameplate, build proto-Vanguard with 15"/50s, 8 Admiralty 3-drum boilers, geared turbines and lots of AA.
Resolution - scrap all but turrets and nameplate, build proto-Vanguard with 15"/50s, 8 Admiralty 3-drum boilers, geared turbines and lots of AA.
Royal Oak - scrap all but turrets and nameplate, build proto-Vanguard with 15"/50s, 8 Admiralty 3-drum boilers, geared turbines and lots of AA.
Royal Sovereign - scrap all but turrets and nameplate, build proto-Vanguard with 15"/50s, 8 Admiralty 3-drum boilers, geared turbines and lots of AA.
Ramillies - scrap all but turrets and nameplate, build proto-Vanguard with 15"/50s, 8 Admiralty 3-drum boilers, geared turbines and lots of AA.

Nelson - Remove 6" guns, replace with more AA, 6 Admiralty 3-drum boilers & geared turbines for 120,000shp.
Rodney - Remove 6" guns, replace with more AA, 6 Admiralty 3-drum boilers & geared turbines for 120,000shp.

Hood - Extend fo'c'sle to around B barbette, new superstructure, fit 15"/50s, QF 4" AA, light AA, 12 Admiralty 3-drum boilers & geared turbines for 240,000shp.

Renown - New superstructure, fit 15"/50s, QF 4" AA, light AA, 10 Admiralty 3-drum boilers & geared turbines for 200,000shp.
Repulse - New superstructure, fit 15"/50s, QF 4" AA, light AA, 10 Admiralty 3-drum boilers & geared turbines for 200,000shp.

Tiger - Remove Q turret, fit 10 Admiralty 3-drum boilers & geared turbines for 200,000shp, remove casemate guns & magazines, replace with HA DP QF 4" and light AA.

Leopard - build as per Tiger using spare 13.5"s from scrapped dreadnoughts and refits.
Lynx - build as per Tiger using spare 13.5"s from scrapped dreadnoughts and refits.
Lion - build as per Tiger using spare 13.5"s from scrapped dreadnoughts and refits.

Courageous - hurricane bow, 6 Admiralty 3-drum boilers & geared turbines for 120,000shp.
Furious - hurricane bow, 6 Admiralty 3-drum boilers & geared turbines for 120,000shp.
Glorious - hurricane bow, 6 Admiralty 3-drum boilers & geared turbines for 120,000shp.
Adventurous - build as per the above.
Audacious - build as per the above.
Illustrious - build as per the above.
Imperious - build as per the above.
Impervious - build as per the above.
Tumultuous - build as per the above.
Valorous - build as per the above.
 
Can we forget the fantasy fleets and handwavium please?

Also I don't understand why the Admiralty would look to replace QE class ships before replacing Revenge class ships, given the later are far more limited than the former.
 
with hindsight ... of WWI ... and in consideration of their available resources ... the KM could build Admiral Hipper-class with 11" guns following French Dunkerque-class all forward facing turrets. and nothing larger for BBs.
The Scharnhorst class OTL was built in response to the Dunkerque class, while the Hipper class was a product of the Anglo-German Naval Treaty of 1935 (so they're pretty much railroaded into building treaty type cruisers, even though some do have misgivings about them*).


*
Conway's all the World's Fighting Ships 1922-1946 said:
In Germany, many authorities argued against the usefulness of these heavy cruisers because their radius of action was only 6800nm against the Deutschlands' 12,000, which effectively prevented them from carrying out long range commerce raiding missions.
 
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