The Battles of The Atlantic & Britian: Royal Navy & AF vs Combined Axis Navy & AF

One of Hitlers greatest failures during the war was his failure to coordinate, cooperate and plan with his allies. How would the Germans have done, expecially early in the war (Norwegian campaign) if they had requested expeditionary fleets from Italy and Japan.

At the time that Italy declared war, the Regia Marina consisted of six capital ships. The four most modern of these ships were being re-equipped. Only the two oldest capital ships were in a state of operational readiness. In addition to the six capital ships, the Italians had 19 cruisers, 59 destroyers, 67 torpedo boats, and 116 submarines.

Japan started the war with 10 aircraft carriers, 184 submarines, and 12 battleships, including the Yamato and Musashi. (If anyone can get better numbers on any of the axis navies, it would be greatly appreciated)

If the Japanese and Italians sent expeditionary fleets to assist the Reichsmarine against the Royal Navy, how could things have happened differently? Maybe the Vichy France or Germany would capture the French Navy?
 
Several comments...

1) What does Japan get out of this? They didn't give a rip about Germany's Battle of the Atlantic.
2) Even if they want to the Japanese fleet does not have the range, refueling capability or bases to get to the Atlantic let alone fight there.
3) In 1940 (your time target) Japan didn't have anywhere near what you are listing above - 5 carriers (1 escort, 2 light, 2 heavy by later standards), 4 BB that could keep up with the carriers during flight operations, 6 more if they chain the carriers down (6 of the BB's had top speeds of 27 Knots or less), 18 CH, 17 CL and 70 DD (10+ of them old enough that they couldn't keep up with the Battle line at all anymore).

Not possible without some intervention by Bats...
 
Several comments...

1) What does Japan get out of this? They didn't give a rip about Germany's Battle of the Atlantic.
2) Even if they want to the Japanese fleet does not have the range, refueling capability or bases to get to the Atlantic let alone fight there.
3) In 1940 (your time target) Japan didn't have anywhere near what you are listing above - 5 carriers (1 escort, 2 light, 2 heavy by later standards), 4 BB that could keep up with the carriers during flight operations, 6 more if they chain the carriers down (6 of the BB's had top speeds of 27 Knots or less), 18 CH, 17 CL and 70 DD (10+ of them old enough that they couldn't keep up with the Battle line at all anymore).

Not possible without some intervention by Bats...

1) I was thinking either Japan & Italy get oil, or Hitler decides to split The British Empire into 3 spheres of influence and the quickest way to defeat her is to cut the head off the snake.

2) Japan is 3,850 miles from Hawaii and about 6,000 miles from Britian, would it be possible for oil tankers to accompany the convoy? Are there no friendly ports on the way?

3) I couldn't find great info on that so thanks, 1940 isn't a hard date, just wanted it to be early in the war, before Norway if possible (where the Reichsmarine took heavy losses)
 
How does the combined Axis fleet in 1940 stack up vs the Royal Navy 1940? Could the battle of Britian have had a different outcome if there were a more signifigant contribution from the Regina Aeronautical
 
2) Japan is 3,850 miles from Hawaii and about 6,000 miles from Britian, would it be possible for oil tankers to accompany the convoy? Are there no friendly ports on the way?

Its an awful lot further than 6,000 sailing miles to Britain from Japan. Plus you have the slight problem that the Royal Navy has lots of bases to work from and can attack and steadily whittle your fleet down virtually the whole way. Japan could only just keep its fleet at sea long enough to attack Pearl Harbour, sailing to the North Atlantic is a whole different ball game.
 
I'm not sure why Japan would declare war of GB and France over a year before OTL - are her armies in place? Or is the IJN going to sail into Wilhelmshaven and Kiel without a declaration of war, hoping no one notices? Same for the RM?

But even if they do, the problem becomes basing. Prior to Norway, the Axis basis are either in the Med, the Baltic or the North Sea. With enough RN power, once you're in those ports you're not getting out, thanks to Gib and the 700 mile breakwater known as Britain - essentially the same scenario as faced the HSF in WW1.

Ultimately, the RN is going to concentrate in the face of this threat, along with the MN - no need for Mers el Kabir ITTL and hold off the threat, even if they have to loose many capital ships to do it. The Atlantic was teh battle that could win or loose the war, and the Allies knew it...
 
Italy didn't enter the war until months after the invasion of Norway. Japan didn't enter the war until Dec. 1941. Japan could get a fleet to the North Atlantic only via teleportation by an ASB. The Italian ships were constructed to operate in the Mediterranean not in the open Atlantic, and the Italian Navy lacked the skill, experience, boldness and traditions of the RN.
 

Satrap

Donor
The Italian Navy is bottled up in the Med, only way out is via the Straits of Gibralter which are stoppered by the RN. (Suez Canal is a non-starter)
 
One of Hitlers greatest failures during the war was his failure to coordinate, cooperate and plan with his allies. How would the Germans have done, expecially early in the war (Norwegian campaign) if they had requested expeditionary fleets from Italy and Japan.

At the time that Italy declared war, the Regia Marina consisted of six capital ships. The four most modern of these ships were being re-equipped. Only the two oldest capital ships were in a state of operational readiness. In addition to the six capital ships, the Italians had 19 cruisers, 59 destroyers, 67 torpedo boats, and 116 submarines.

Japan started the war with 10 aircraft carriers, 184 submarines, and 12 battleships, including the Yamato and Musashi. (If anyone can get better numbers on any of the axis navies, it would be greatly appreciated)

If the Japanese and Italians sent expeditionary fleets to assist the Reichsmarine against the Royal Navy, how could things have happened differently? Maybe the Vichy France or Germany would capture the French Navy?

Woah woah woah woah woah.

Firstly, Italy and Japan weren't allied to Germany during Norway; Italy joined in in July 1940, and Japan joined in December '41.

Secondly, there is no way this can happen. The Italian Fleet in OTL was actually used rather effectively; their Fleet in Being successfully tied down huge numbers of British ships, and they managed to get enough supplies to North Africa to maintain their forces there. Any Italian fleet heading for the Atlantic would have to pass through British Gibraltar; even assuming it managed to get to the Straits unscathed, there would probably be a British Fleet waiting, as well as a number of shore guns aimed at that perfect little narrow seperating Spain and Moorocco that the ships would have to pass through.

A Japanese fleet getting to the Atlantic is even more unlikely. Oil tankers and oil are precious; in order to maintain this expeditionary force, the Japanese would need an insane number of both, leaving their home waters undefended. Also, Japan, unlike Germany and Italy was not only a major naval power but an island; their leaders were insane, but not insane enough to leave themselves undefended to send their ships to help a shaky ally fight a private war in an area on the other side of the world.
 
If the IJN attacked the British in 1940, the US would be in the war. There's really no getting around that one.
 
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