the Battle of Britain: The rise of the turbojet
- Thread starter gloster meteor mk3
- Start date
The dealbreaker question is why.
What makes a British engine maker build jets?
What makes a British aircraft maker fit jets to an airframe?
Most important, what makes the Air Ministry, that cabal of hidebound nitwits stuck in WW1,
buy a new type?
Never mind what it costs or how long it takes, that's after you answer these.
I'm seeing handwavium, nothing else.
Not to say it's not entertaining, for all that.
BTW, if you want a fast interceptor, IMO something like the Ba-349 makes more sense (after you cure its stupid break-off nose).
What makes a British engine maker build jets?
What makes a British aircraft maker fit jets to an airframe?
Most important, what makes the Air Ministry, that cabal of hidebound nitwits stuck in WW1,
buy a new type?Never mind what it costs or how long it takes, that's after you answer these.
I'm seeing handwavium, nothing else.
Not to say it's not entertaining, for all that.
BTW, if you want a fast interceptor, IMO something like the Ba-349 makes more sense (after you cure its stupid break-off nose
).
In OTL Whittle wanted nothing to do with Rolls-Royce - there were the 'establishment' in terms of aero-engines, what he was proposing was a revolution; which is why he turned to Rover.
Only the RAF can specify a new aircraft not RR.
There may be scope for shaving service time off jet aircraft via earlier take-over of jet engines from Rover - when their progress was too slow, by short cuts, like jet Whirlwind. But this IMHO can be measured in months not years.
For entertainment it may be interesting, but plausible!? Not a lot !!
Only the RAF can specify a new aircraft not RR.
There may be scope for shaving service time off jet aircraft via earlier take-over of jet engines from Rover - when their progress was too slow, by short cuts, like jet Whirlwind. But this IMHO can be measured in months not years.
For entertainment it may be interesting, but plausible!? Not a lot !!
The dealbreaker question is why.
What makes a British engine maker build jets?
What makes a British aircraft maker fit jets to an airframe?
Most important, what makes the Air Ministry, that cabal of hidebound nitwits stuck in WW1,
Never mind what it costs or how long it takes, that's after you answer these.
I'm seeing handwavium, nothing else.
Not to say it's not entertaining, for all that.
BTW, if you want a fast interceptor, IMO something like the Ba-349 makes more sense (after you cure its stupid break-off nose
Slightly spoiled the air of hard-headed realism by mentioning that nightmare of a design. One benefit of ultra-conservative people in procurement was they didn't waste time and test-pilots on things that were completely unworkable. Crap, frequently, but usually airworthy.
Agreed that the OTL Air Ministry are *not* going to be showing any real interest in jet engines in 1933. Problem is, any change you make to get a functioning Air Ministry leads them to start changing other things before they muck about with experimental engines. Maybe taking a glance at their fighter designs next to their bomber designs and wondering whether the bomber actually will get through.
gloster meteor mk3
Banned
fixed timeline
February 20th 1936
frank whittle shows a bench test of his prototype turbojet engine to the air ministry and the ministry of aircraft production.The air ministry rejects the idea as too fantastic to work. The ministry of aircraft production is far more enthusiastic and asks whittle what he would need to make a flight worthy jet engine.
Whittle reply's a work shop bigger than this and 150 skilled workers to get a flyable prototype into production and a plane to fit the engine into.
Gloster aircraft is given a specification to build a prototype jet aircraft.
Hitler annexes the Rhineland his troops march in to great cheers. Britain is concerned about german rearmament. the house of commons orders intense rearmament in the face of nazi aggression. The air ministry approves whittles turbojet engines project.
July 10th 1938
The first flyable prototype jet engine is tested at RAF cranwell in front of the air ministry and air craft production. RAF fighter command is also present. Frank whittle at the controls of the gloster E.28/39 lifts off and does a 17 minute flight. climbing upto 40,000 feet and hitting 466 mph in level flight. Whittle puts the jet into a shallow dive pulling up 50 feet from the ground the sound wave knocks the observers onto the ground.After the flight whittle answers questions from the observers.
"how fast did you go in the aircraft asks a air ministry official ".whittle replies i hit 466 mph i could of pushed it further but thought better of it".
the ministry of aircraft production ask " when can you start putting the engines into full production".
"straight away as long as i get the materials i need". Later in the year the first of glosters G.40 Mk1 goes into full production armed with four .303 machine guns, its learned later that the .303 round does little damage to a aircraft with Armour and the machine guns jam from the small size calliber round in a bigger gun barrel if you keep the trigger pressed for more than 10 seconds. the mk2 version gets four 20mm cannon and better landing gear.
the Mk 2 enters production in July 1938 armed with the 20 mm cannons and a primitive ejection seat. the end of 1936 the first mk2,s are delivered to the RAF who are extremely happy with the new aircraft.
1938
the RAF flight qualify the Mk 2 half the RAF fighter command is now jet qualified, only the northern squadrons are not. the nazis test there first jet prototype it is a complete disaster the engine cut out at 20,000 feet and goes into a tail spin and crashes into the ground going 356 mph, the pilot dies on impact. Goering is not pleased " you would not have that problem with a piston engine" he says to Ernst Heinkel.
the MK3 goes into production with better engines and better cannons six 20 mm in groups of three in each wing plus a better ejection seat.
the last of the Mk2,s are delivered to the RAF.
the Mk3 enters full production. Whittle has a nervous break down due to stress during a bench test of his new turbo jet engine. Doctors order him to get some rest and relaxation if he does not he will have a stroke one he may not survive.
Later that year whittle returns to work, with a renewed energy the rover mk3 turbo jet is given full approval by whittle and placed into the first Mk4.
March 1939
the first batch of Mk3,s go into squadron service. the first Mk3 is flown my air chief marshal dowding when he lands at RAF Hawkinge he is heard talking to the base commander " now that is an aircraft, the perfect balance of speed and power if we end up fighting against fatso Goering the Luftwaffe won,t know what hit them".
February 20th 1936
frank whittle shows a bench test of his prototype turbojet engine to the air ministry and the ministry of aircraft production.The air ministry rejects the idea as too fantastic to work. The ministry of aircraft production is far more enthusiastic and asks whittle what he would need to make a flight worthy jet engine.
Whittle reply's a work shop bigger than this and 150 skilled workers to get a flyable prototype into production and a plane to fit the engine into.
Gloster aircraft is given a specification to build a prototype jet aircraft.
Hitler annexes the Rhineland his troops march in to great cheers. Britain is concerned about german rearmament. the house of commons orders intense rearmament in the face of nazi aggression. The air ministry approves whittles turbojet engines project.
July 10th 1938
The first flyable prototype jet engine is tested at RAF cranwell in front of the air ministry and air craft production. RAF fighter command is also present. Frank whittle at the controls of the gloster E.28/39 lifts off and does a 17 minute flight. climbing upto 40,000 feet and hitting 466 mph in level flight. Whittle puts the jet into a shallow dive pulling up 50 feet from the ground the sound wave knocks the observers onto the ground.After the flight whittle answers questions from the observers.
"how fast did you go in the aircraft asks a air ministry official ".whittle replies i hit 466 mph i could of pushed it further but thought better of it".
the ministry of aircraft production ask " when can you start putting the engines into full production".
"straight away as long as i get the materials i need". Later in the year the first of glosters G.40 Mk1 goes into full production armed with four .303 machine guns, its learned later that the .303 round does little damage to a aircraft with Armour and the machine guns jam from the small size calliber round in a bigger gun barrel if you keep the trigger pressed for more than 10 seconds. the mk2 version gets four 20mm cannon and better landing gear.
the Mk 2 enters production in July 1938 armed with the 20 mm cannons and a primitive ejection seat. the end of 1936 the first mk2,s are delivered to the RAF who are extremely happy with the new aircraft.
1938
the RAF flight qualify the Mk 2 half the RAF fighter command is now jet qualified, only the northern squadrons are not. the nazis test there first jet prototype it is a complete disaster the engine cut out at 20,000 feet and goes into a tail spin and crashes into the ground going 356 mph, the pilot dies on impact. Goering is not pleased " you would not have that problem with a piston engine" he says to Ernst Heinkel.
the MK3 goes into production with better engines and better cannons six 20 mm in groups of three in each wing plus a better ejection seat.
the last of the Mk2,s are delivered to the RAF.
the Mk3 enters full production. Whittle has a nervous break down due to stress during a bench test of his new turbo jet engine. Doctors order him to get some rest and relaxation if he does not he will have a stroke one he may not survive.
Later that year whittle returns to work, with a renewed energy the rover mk3 turbo jet is given full approval by whittle and placed into the first Mk4.
March 1939
the first batch of Mk3,s go into squadron service. the first Mk3 is flown my air chief marshal dowding when he lands at RAF Hawkinge he is heard talking to the base commander " now that is an aircraft, the perfect balance of speed and power if we end up fighting against fatso Goering the Luftwaffe won,t know what hit them".
Sorry, but this TL has all the same flaws that The Attack On Scapa Flow has. Unrealistically fast technical development, clairvoyant leadership on one side, unlimited funds and an intellectually stunted enemy who wouldn't be issued live ammunition in real life.
After PMing with gloster meteor mk3 a POD came to mind; what if the Schneider Trophy lasted into the late 30's? Could that provide a catalyst for faster jet engine development? And could Germany get sidetracked with rocket planes instead of jets, at least for a couple of years?
It could, but the early jets' lack of decent acceleration might be a serious disadvantage over the triangular course they used. They may be potentially faster on the swings of a straight line, but they'd probably lose out on the roundabouts of the turns. Given what a massive industrial task it would be to develop an entirely different type of race ready engine, I think its doubtful anyone would have tried it before about 1938, although I'm prepared to be proven wrong.
Oh, and gloster meteor mk3? Nothing is more likely to raise the ire of regular posters here than the phrase "The reaction is same as OTL". I recommend you read this to see what sort of mess arises when one side does stuff and the other... doesn't.
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=234421
(Ovaron: Ich habe heute zweimal Schleichwerbung für Dein Timeline gemacht. Ich glaube, dass ich ein neues Kaptial verdient habe.
)gloster meteor mk3
Banned
simple it comes as a complete surprise to them plus the wont be going for the me 109 the will be flying fw 190 a2 so a bit evenly matched just the brits will have another surprise for them.
It could, but the early jets' lack of decent acceleration might be a serious disadvantage over the triangular course they used. They may be potentially faster on the swings of a straight line, but they'd probably lose out on the roundabouts of the turns. Given what a massive industrial task it would be to develop an entirely different type of race ready engine, I think its doubtful anyone would have tried it before about 1938, although I'm prepared to be proven wrong.
Oh, and gloster meteor mk3? Nothing is more likely to raise the ire of regular posters here than the phrase "The reaction is same as OTL". I recommend you read this to see what sort of mess arises when one side does stuff and the other... doesn't.
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=234421
(Ovaron: Ich habe heute zweimal Schleichwerbung für Dein Timeline gemacht. Ich glaube, dass ich ein neues Kaptial verdient habe.
I was thinking along the lines that it might at the very least accelerate the development of the technology before the issues become clear and at least make the potential of the engine clear?
Sorry but the idea they are taken completely by surprise just isn't going to work; not when you are talking about such a radical change.
gloster meteor mk3
Banned
ok but remember we are talking about the nazis here they tought they could take on the world.hitler thinks britain is just some small island in the middle of the north atlantic. how could a weak and powerless island get jet technology when the mighty riech is struggling to make a jet.
It could well do. The Schneider Trophy was the proving ground for some pretty radical technology like surface evaporation cooling. It also threw up its share of... dead ends. Allow me to present the Piaggio P.7.
gloster meteor mk3
Banned
true but can you imagine the reaction if whittle turns up with a jet plane they will laugh there heads off up till the point when its in the air breaking the speed limit for aircraft there jaws will drop.
Could I suggest a bit more background reading and a bit less time watching the dramatic docs on the History Channel? That weak and powerless island had the greatest empire the world had ever seen, and taught the world industrialisation. Hitler may have been guilty of continental thinking, but your dismissal there is... factually inaccurate.
Oh, and the RAF getting jets into service and keeping it a secret is on a par with Cheryl Cole and Pippa Middleton bringing me caviar on toast in bed tomorrow morning. It ain't gonna happen.
gloster meteor mk3
Banned
i dont have sky mate so i don,t watch history channel.plus hitler was crazy.goering was in love piston powered planes to care less about jet tech.
as i recall goering and the lufftewaffe was at the demonstation of the heinkel jet prototype and instead of saying yes son go right a head he turns round to heinkel and says sorry not interested. same with AM both short sighted fools liviing in the 1910,s.
as i recall goering and the lufftewaffe was at the demonstation of the heinkel jet prototype and instead of saying yes son go right a head he turns round to heinkel and says sorry not interested. same with AM both short sighted fools liviing in the 1910,s.
I think I'll write a timeline where Nazi superjets (telepathically controlled by the force of Hitler's madness) bomb Scapa Flow from their bases in the Frisian Islands.