The Battle at Dawn: The first battle between the United States and Japan December 7-10, 1941

[nbcman]

If the US Fleet is getting prepared at 0330 in a somewhat orderly fashion, might there be a message sent to the AP WW Burrows for them to alter course? IOTL they didn't receive orders until the day after the PH attacks to return to Hawaii and, prior to arriving there, to get routed to Johnston Island.

Great timeline and looking forward to future updates.

 

[stubear1012]

I am wondering if anyone will think to send a message to MacArthur to let him know what is happening?

This is a very good timeline and is realistic.

 

[edgeworthy]

Scouting Force (Halsey)
Task Force 2 (Brown) carrier Lexington (w 37 Dauntless dive bombers, 18 Devastator torpedo bombers, 17 Buffalo fighters), carrier Yorktown (36 Dauntless dive bombers, 18 Devastator torpedo bombers, 18 Wildcat fighters) heavy cruisers Chicago, Portland, Astoria, light cruisers Helena, Honolulu, destroyers Porter, Drayton, Flusser, Lamson, Mahan, Cummings, Case, Tucker,

Excellent, you noticed that Lexington's Fighter Squadron was still flying Buffalo's.
(Something the normally meticulous Forstchen and Gingrich missed).
It should be interesting to see what effect this has?

 

[Kurt_Steiner]

Is this going to be a prequel of "Midway"?

 

[Unknown]

Good TL; waiting for more.

PM CalBear for the potential effects of this battle on the rest of the Pacific War, BTW (also, PM Fearless Leader, who wrote the Wake Island TL A True and Better Alamo)...

And a saying that will probably be true ITTL: "Battle plans never survive first contact with the enemy."

 

[Hammerbolt]

Excellent, you noticed that Lexington's Fighter Squadron was still flying Buffalo's.
(Something the normally meticulous Forstchen and Gingrich missed).
It should be interesting to see what effect this has?

You mean, when trying to fight it out with the Japanese Zeros, either in escort or air defense? Considering that, in Midway, the marines lost 13 out of 20 Buffalos in a single fight, I'd say the japanese would not have much of a problem dealing with them...

 

[edgeworthy]

You mean, when trying to fight it out with the Japanese Zeros, either in escort or air defense? Considering that, in Midway, the marines lost 13 out of 20 Buffalos in a single fight, I'd say the japanese would not have much of a problem dealing with them...

Something like that ... any USN counterstrike, or IJN response, is likely to go poorly for the Lexington's Task Force.

 

[Driftless]

Something like that ... any USN counterstrike, or IJN response, is likely to go poorly for the Lexington's Task Force.

At this point, no Buffaloes or Wildcats (plus the Peashooters & P-35's in the PI) have seen combat yet, correct? The P-40's have over China and the P-36's have over France.

 

[nbcman]

At this point, no Buffaloes or Wildcats (plus the Peashooters & P-35's in the PI) have seen combat yet, correct? The P-40's have over China and the P-36's have over France.

Buffaloes saw combat during the Continuation War between the Soviets and the Finns. The Finns had about 44 of them.

EDIT: Actually, I don't think the P-40s saw combat in China yet as they were part of the AVG which was forming at the time of PH. Their first combat mission wasn't until 20 Dec 1941. They were used by the Desert Air Force starting in June 1941.

 

[Dave Howery]

pretty good, looking forward to more. The pre-war stuff all seems a bit 'the Americans do everything right', but as Pearl Harbor PODs go, this one is really possible...

 

[Hammerbolt]

At this point, no Buffaloes or Wildcats (plus the Peashooters & P-35's in the PI) have seen combat yet, correct? The P-40's have over China and the P-36's have over France.

Acording to Wikipedia, a USMC Buffalo scored the type's first US kill in March 1942, so 3 months before the battle.

 

[Driftless]

You mean, when trying to fight it out with the Japanese Zeros, either in escort or air defense? Considering that, in Midway, the marines lost 13 out of 20 Buffalos in a single fight, I'd say the japanese would not have much of a problem dealing with them...

Something like that ... any USN counterstrike, or IJN response, is likely to go poorly for the Lexington's Task Force.

At this point, no Buffaloes or Wildcats (plus the Peashooters & P-35's in the PI) have seen combat yet, correct? The P-40's have over China and the P-36's have over France.

Buffaloes saw combat during the Continuation War between the Soviets and the Finns. The Finns had about 44 of them.

Good point about the use of the Buffaloes by the Finns. However, at this point, isn't the USN still going to view the Buffaloes as near top-of-the-line fighters, particularly since they haven't encountered the A6M Zero yet?

*edit* the author did mention the visit by Gen Chenault with his presentation on fighting tactics, so maybe there's a change in approach?

 

[Driftless]

Acording to Wikipedia, a USMC Buffalo scored the type's first US kill in March 1942, so 3 months before the battle.

But this is Dec 1941

 

[nbcman]

Good point about the use of the Buffaloes by the Finns. However, at this point, isn't the USN still going to view the Buffaloes as near top-of-the-line fighters, particularly since they haven't encountered the A6M Zero yet?

*edit* the author did mention the visit by Gen Chenault with his presentation on fighting tactics, so maybe there's a change in approach?

No, the US recognized that the Buffalos were obsolete in early 1941 when they were being ordered. But more were made to keep Brewster's plant running to make even obsolete fighters available for second line units which is why so many Buffalos were seen in the UK and Commonwealth air units in the Far East.

EDIT:

But this is Dec 1941

The first Finnish combat missions with Buffalos was in late June 1941 not in 1942 when No.24 Squadron defended southern Finland against Soviet air raids.

 

[Driftless]

EDIT:

The first Finnish combat missions with Buffalos was in late June 1941 not in 1942 when No.24 Squadron defended southern Finland against Soviet air raids.

That was more pointed to Hammerbolt's comment about the USMC kill in March 1942.

I think human nature is such that experience by another group/culture is given less value than your own - right or wrong.... The Finn's experience certainly should have been considered and evaluated - but how much of that Finnish experience would the USN leadership have seen and evaluated by later 1941?

 

[Just Leo]

At this point, no Buffaloes or Wildcats (plus the Peashooters & P-35's in the PI) have seen combat yet, correct? The P-40's have over China and the P-36's have over France.

Flying Tiger P-40s haven't seen combat yet, in Burma or China, and the RAF 67 Squadron Buffaloes in Burma saw action at the same time, and with good early warning, fared well, but were outnumbered and suffered attrition. Chennault's tactics were sometimes regarded as a form of cowardice, since it entailed attacking with advantage and then running away to attack later, rather than being killed with honor in dog-fights.

British Buffaloes were not the F2A-3s flown by Marines, acknowledged to be whales in manoeuver compared to the nimble F2A2s that had been retired.

 

[Driftless]

British Buffaloes were not the F2A-3s flown by Marines, acknowledged to be whales in manoeuver compared to the nimble F2A2s that had been retired.

So, the $64 question is: how would the Lexington's Buffalos approach their fight with the Japanese? Do they fight with the way they've been trained - to date; or are they mid-stream with changes as Chenault suggested? My money's on the way they've been trained; which probably means a tougher day for the Lexington and crew.

*edit* I was thinking the AVG flew the P-40's before Pearl Harbor.

 

[Lost Freeway]

How did Soviet fighters compare to the Zero anyway?

 

[Hammerbolt]

How did Soviet fighters compare to the Zero anyway?

Afaik, they were inferior at this point. But the real problem, with the soviets, was the state of the aircrews. Poor training, poor tactics, poor leadership. Meanwhile, the Fins, while flying aircraft that might even be inferior, were superbly trained...

 

[Hammerbolt]

But this is Dec 1941

Right, I was thinking "real life events"...