The Battle at Dawn: The first battle between the United States and Japan December 7-10, 1941

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Did Jeannette Rankin still do her act of defiance and say no to the DoW against Japan?

I know she was brave and wanted to make a point, but it looked really boneheaded considering the evidence....
 

Driftless

Donor
With the more effective counter-punching the US has been able to do in this "Battle for the Hawaiian Islands", does Adolf jump into the fight as willingly as he did OTL? Japan looked surprisingly dominant in those early days of historic 1941, so Hitler had some good cover for his decision.
 

Driftless

Donor
Imagine Patton and Mac working on the same front :)

Well, Patton and Monty made it work, but then they both had nearby commanders over them, who were not afraid to yank their chains when needed. Mac and Patton half a world away? Who plays Ike and Brooke's roles?
 
With the more effective counter-punching the US has been able to do in this "Battle for the Hawaiian Islands", does Adolf jump into the fight as willingly as he did OTL? Japan looked surprisingly dominant in those early days of historic 1941,so Hitler had some good cover for his decision.

He declared war on December 11, which it already is west of the date line (Midway is just east of it), so while I don't know the specific time that declaration was issued, it is roughly 15 hours later in Berlin, so he would have already done so or made the decision to do so (he made most of his decisions late afternoon early evening so he made it the night before most likely). The information he has is that the Japanese have attacked and crippled the American fleet at Pearl Harbor, and is doing very well elsewhere and he is completely unaware of Japanese losses (as the IJN hid losses from the Japanese Army for months it will likely be a while before he ever discovers those losses)
 
Brown is a going home at some point due to health. Nimitz will certainly get CINCPAC for the same reasons he did historically. Spruance will keep his task force but Towers is a possibility for another one built around the Saratoga and Hornet. Fletcher and Newton will stay in surface forces (due to their success in battle). Fitch or Towers will get important positions.

There are vacancies as follows:
CINCPAC (Richardson) Brown in acting command
Commander Battle Force (Pye)
Aircraft Battle Force (Halsey)
Bat Div 1 (Kidd)(although 2 of that div are total losses and the Nevada is out of action for some time so that entire BatDiv will have to be reconstituted)
Commander Scouting Force (Brown, who moved up and will move out eventually)
also lost w Richardson, Pye, Halsey and Kidd were their Chiefs of Staff

this has a handy list of who held what job as of October 1941 which I used for this TL
http://www.fleetorganization.com/1941intro.html

Thanks for the link and the breakdown. It does help. Well things will certainly be 'interesting' and lots of butterflies flapping for both sides.
 

Driftless

Donor
Brown is a going home at some point due to health. Nimitz will certainly get CINCPAC for the same reasons he did historically. Spruance will keep his task force but Towers is a possibility for another one built around the Saratoga and Hornet. Fletcher and Newton will stay in surface forces (due to their success in battle). Fitch or Towers will get important positions.

There are vacancies as follows:
CINCPAC (Richardson) Brown in acting command
Commander Battle Force (Pye)
Aircraft Battle Force (Halsey)
Bat Div 1 (Kidd)(although 2 of that div are total losses and the Nevada is out of action for some time so that entire BatDiv will have to be reconstituted)
Commander Scouting Force (Brown, who moved up and will move out eventually)
also lost w Richardson, Pye, Halsey and Kidd were their Chiefs of Staff

this has a handy list of who held what job as of October 1941 which I used for this TL
http://www.fleetorganization.com/1941intro.html

Where's the Visio expert to create an updated org chart, showing the new chain of command? ;)

You can't tell the players without a scorecard.:biggrin:
 
Adolf will still give a DOW. He well remembers the US "neutrality" of WWI, and FDR's putting the fleet on a war footing in the Atlantic. In OTL he made the decision to go to war with the US based on past and present experience, believing it better to fight the US before it could get up to it's full potential.
 
A factor in fleet command will be how badly Halsey is injured and how long his recovery takes. In the PI removing Doug will probably have the following important changes no matter who replaces him: the FEAF raids Formosa, and is on higher alert; the "meet them on the beaches" strategy is changed for limited resistance on the beaches and a more realistic attempt to use prepared stop lines to slow the Japanese; Bataan is adequately provisioned (food, ammo etc) and the withdrawal to Bataan is better organized allowing for a longer resistance. You might also see planning for a prolonged fight in the Southern PI and a separation of command so that the Japanese can't demand surrender of all forces in the PI as the commander at Corregidor does not control forces in the Southern PI.

All of the above (except the separation of command at some point) was in line with the general run of WP Orange planning. Most of the PI will still fall, however much later. Combined with the hits the IJN has taken, and the fact that Wake holds (Guam still falls), the plans for further action are severely disrupted. Taking the DEI, Malaya, Borneo will go forward as close to OTL as possible as the getting the resource areas is the whole reason for the war. Raiding the Indian Ocean, and at least some of the the island conquests of OTL at the periphery will not happen, and some of the others may not succeed. It is possible some of the islands in the Southern PI can be held.

As I have mentioned in previous posts, a key for the USA will be if lessons are learned from these battles - use of radar, ship tactics, aerial tactics and better planes, and the torpedo issue. If these are started in December 1941 instead of months or years later, American success will be accelerated. IMHO the torpedo issue with crap exploders, and aerial torpedoes that break up will be the most intractable as the "torpedo mafia" will insists, as OTL, that the problems are with the operators not the weapons.
 
Why wouldn't she?
In the vain hope that she at least recognizes that the Japanese attacked American soil without provocation, at least.

Dunno really. I know she is a Pacifist and wanted to make a statement, but trying to pull a stunt like that when at least 2350 Americans are lying dead on the shores of Pearl Harbor and nearly the entire country was pissed off was just boneheaded. She at least could have abstained or something.
 
In the vain hope that she at least recognizes that the Japanese attacked American soil without provocation, at least.

Dunno really. I know she is a Pacifist and wanted to make a statement, but trying to pull a stunt like that when at least 2350 Americans are lying dead on the shores of Pearl Harbor and nearly the entire country was pissed off was just boneheaded. She at least could have abstained or something.
If Mowque showed us anything, pacifism isn't always rational.
 
I don't know a great deal about her personal beliefs, but if she was an absolute pacifist, as are some religious groups, then fighting/taking human life is an absolute evil under all circumstances including self defense. Assuming she held those beliefs, rather than a more flexible pacifism that was more an anti-militarism anti-imperialism/colonialism, then one has to give her respect for standing behind deeply held moral beliefs. Politically suicide of course, as well as opening herself up to a good deal of personal assault. In some respects a good example for many politicians whose morality is so flexible it makes Gumby look like a stiff.
 
Representative Rankin was very much a pacifist...and she was voted out of office afterwards
Even the isolationist movement knew that Pearl Harbor was the end of things and ended their campaign, IIRC. They knew that they couldnt possibly try to not go against this type of attack and not seen as fools.

For some reason, I can read the moment that Ms. Rankin voted no in Gordon Freeman's voice.
 
I know USN torpedoes had problems but isn't it a bit unrealistic that they are ALL duds?
From Wikipedia, which is actually an excerpt from an official BuOrd report: "In mid-1943 an analysis of 105 torpedoes dropped at speeds in excess of 150 knots showed clearly why aviators distrusted the Mark 13: 36 percent ran cold, 20 percent sank, 20 percent had poor deflection performance, 18 percent gave unsatisfactory depth performance, 2 percent ran on the surface, and only 31 percent gave a satisfactory run. The total in excess of 100 percent proved that many torpedoes were subject to more than one of the defects, just as the bulk of the problems were still due to the effects of poor air stabilization on water behavior."

Yes, the Mk 13 really was that bad. U.S. torpedo development prior to the war showed so much promise, but ended up as a classic epic failure. Blame it on the Great Depression, blame it on the stodgy intractability of the "Gun Club" admirals, blame it on old fashioned hubris. Some of the reasons were at least understandable, some of it wasn't, but all of it was a colossal balls up that dragged out the war by probably 8-12 months and got waaay too many Sailors and airmen killed.
 
With the loss rates it almost seems that a carrier's air complement is good for one or maybe two strikes. With the hit/loss ratio of the torpedo planes I'd be tempted to leave them behind and load the carrier with 2/3rds fighters and 1/3rd dive bombers. Send half the fighters to escort the strikes and keep the other half for a CAP.

It's probably been mentioned before but replacement pilots are as much a part of the logistics stream as the airplanes are. That's why Shokaku's loss of aircrew is more damaging: the air wings of Shokaku and Zuikaku were filled out with instructor pilots.
 
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