The Battle at Dawn: The first battle between the United States and Japan December 7-10, 1941
- Thread starter galveston bay
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Looking forward to your next continuation.
I will shed no tears for the death of Bug Out Dougie.
Looking forward to your next continuation.
I will shed no tears for the death of Bug Out Dougie.
a sentiment I fully endorse...
Well that was a very bloody battle. More pilots and planes on both sides are lost, and the US will ramp up its training programs and building schedules to replace their losses. Japan has a much harder time to do so, at least pilot wise.
Things may change ITTL if Halsey were to die or be crippled from his injuries. Would Brown remain as Commander of the Carriers/Pacific fleet or are there other admirals with more seniority?
With so many torpedo planes lost, will the US be able to speed up the development and production of the TBF/TBM? Increase the number of fighters to help with CAP and escorting strike attacks?
Well great job GB and I await to see how things will go in the Philippines.
Things may change ITTL if Halsey were to die or be crippled from his injuries. Would Brown remain as Commander of the Carriers/Pacific fleet or are there other admirals with more seniority?
With so many torpedo planes lost, will the US be able to speed up the development and production of the TBF/TBM? Increase the number of fighters to help with CAP and escorting strike attacks?
Well great job GB and I await to see how things will go in the Philippines.
Driftless
Donor
Well, December 8, FDR give the "Day of Infamy" speech to Congress, with a similar request for a Declaration of War. I could imagine both public and congressional reaction towards the DOW would be very similar to our universe. The stunning shock for both leadership and public will be at both the nature of the attack and the very steep cost. Still, there will be the steely resolve to load up and "finish the job", perhaps with more time pressure to act sooner that might be wise, as the US got some good licks in on the Japanese.
Driftless
Donor
Indeed, but as GB has pointed out a few times, a goodly number of the shot down American pilots were rescued, due to their proximity to Oahu and Midway
Donald Reaver
Donor
Looking forward to your next continuation.
I will shed no tears for the death of Bug Out Dougie.
How is the death of Macarthur going to change American politics? The Bonus army march is still the same or not? Would suggest he dies shortly before the war for some reason to reduce the butterflies.
Agreed and it will be helpful. They lost some experienced pilots, flight leaders, and squadron commanders. I am sure those survivors, once they are healed and ready, will be brought back to aid in training the new batches of pilots and try to teach them what they learned in the combat against the Japanese.
It will take more battles and encounters to learn the best ways to combat the Zero. Boom and Zoom! Plus the Thatch Weave or whatver it may be called ITTL.
Naw, let him croak early and get someone who is a LOT better in preparing the Philippines and who may deal with the Australians in a much more civil and cooperative way.
Driftless
Donor
As I'm thinking more on it, your point about losses the flight leaders and squadron commanders has merit, particularly among the torpedo and dive bomber groups for the Americans. They took some real hard losses there.
Driftless
Donor
Both Army Chiefs of Staff who bookended Mac's term (Gen Charles Summerall & Gen Malin Craig), had command experience in WW1 and served in the Philippines. Does that make them candidates for Mac's Philippine gig?
The position of the USA ITTL is better than OTL, and the Japanese worse, in some ways much worse. Down two carriers and one out of use for at least 4-6 months. Several surface ships lost not (yet) lost OTL. Many aircraft lost, which can be made up easily at this point in time, but the loss of aircrew is major and much sooner than OTL. Putting rookies out 6 months sooner will accelerate the Japanese naval aviation death spiral. The loss of all the transports and all those troops will not do much to improve cooperation between the IJA and IJN which will have an effect on campaigns that were planned OTL, as will the hits the KB and IJN have taken.
While Midway has been beaten up, the losses were relatively small and the damage can be repaired quickly. Wake will remain in US hands and both Wake and Midway will soon be quite secure and beyond the reach of the Japanese. The torpedo disasters might, just might, get the USA to look at and fix the problem sooner than OTL. Replacement of the inadequate US aircraft will hopefully be accelerated, and there will hopefully be an earlier start to learning tactical lessons.
I look forward to seeing how the butterflies flap.
While Midway has been beaten up, the losses were relatively small and the damage can be repaired quickly. Wake will remain in US hands and both Wake and Midway will soon be quite secure and beyond the reach of the Japanese. The torpedo disasters might, just might, get the USA to look at and fix the problem sooner than OTL. Replacement of the inadequate US aircraft will hopefully be accelerated, and there will hopefully be an earlier start to learning tactical lessons.
I look forward to seeing how the butterflies flap.
With no MacArthur, that would hopefully mean better air defense of the P.I. Also Hart would be allowed to use his PBY's to do more recon toward Taiwan, also all the 4 pipers converted would DM' could be moved to Asiatic Flee and mine the aproaches to the Luzon beaches. I have read in the past various places that Harry Yarnell, Thomas Hart's predecessor as Flag Asiatic fleet wanted Naval Aviation to have to fighters to defend Cavite and Olopongo/Subic.
as I reread his biography I am thinking that would make life easier ... anytime after 1935 he can be written out of history
going with a different approach for the Philippines. Instead of creating Macarthur's "Swiss Army" (pipedream) going with expanding the Constabulary and Philippine Scouts instead with the goal post independence of making them the National Gendarme and Army that backs it up from internal security threats with the assumption that the US will defend its bases in the Philippines.
It is more realistic considering the Philippine budget issues that crippled from the very beginning its military goals. Not paying massive of amounts for a Field Marshal it doesn't need should help some too.
every time I read about his performance in Luzon and the first year of the Korean War I get grumpy about him
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