The Battle at Dawn: The first battle between the United States and Japan December 7-10, 1941

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Anyone here know enough about ships to estimate how far the fuel could be extended were the speed reduced below ten knots?
Check this.
https://people.hofstra.edu/geotrans/eng/ch8en/conc8en/fuel_consumption_containerships.html
It is for container ships but graph shows speed and daily consumption for different sized ships.
But really depends on engine characteristics, type of oil used, weather.
I read somewhere if you double the speed of the ship you roughly increase the fuel consumption 8 times.
Do we have some data on fuel consumption of Japanese ships by type?
 
The problem is that even at most economical speed there won't be enough fuel to get anyplace safe for everyone. By safe I mean a Japanese base with the potential to refuel ships. The other problem is that even if you calculate range at economical speed, you have to account for the need for increased speed to dodge and maneuver if under attack. Furthermore running away from a bad spot at economical speed will leave you in range of attack from aircraft longer, and of course this allows surface units to catch up with you easily.

Does anyone know what capability Japanese warships had to transfer fuel to other ships.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Check the following reference to see Pacific, Asiatic and Atlantic fleet.

lhttp://www.niehorster.org/013_usa/_41_usn/_usn.html

The Asiatic fleet reflects both logistic realities and war plans (as noted). What you see is primarily a submarine force; in fact the " most modern" boats available. Neither Guam nor the Philippines had the port facilities to support the battle fleet, and had long supply lines. Which either had to traverse the Mandates (Japanese) or divert south. In case of war with Japan the clear expectation was that the Asiatic fleet could not be sustained in the PI. Only McArthur believed the PI could be held and nobody believed Guam would survive.

Bottom line is that the Asiatic was as big as it could/should be, and was constructed in a way that made the most sense operationally.

Come to think of it, even several weeks before Pearl Harbor, we were diverting merchant shipping carrying war supplies south of New Guinea.
 
With the US carriers at Laysan Island, and refueled, the Admiral Yamamoto is going to get his decisive battle. Just not the one he wanted. Not only is Halsey in position to block his retreat, Halsey is also in between Kido Butai and its refueling rendezvous.:openedeyewink:

it should be noted that the Japanese refueled on December 3 and again on December 6 (400 miles north of Hawaii). The next rendevous is on December 21 SSW of the Bonin Islands (historically). However there are more tankers assigned, which means that alternate refueling points clearly have been designated in this timeline.

Yamamato has planned for up to three days in the waters around Hawaii and Midway, and will be heading west north west toward Midway (well south of his tankers) after the strike. The tankers are returning to their home bases along the northern great circle route that they took out bound

https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/USSBS/PTO-Campaigns/USSBS-PTO-2.html#appendix2

the carriers, battleships and cruisers all have sufficient range to make from the Kurile Islands to Oahu and back without refueling on a direct route, plus a couple of days of extra steaming time (all the capital ships have a range of around 8,000 nautical miles at 14 knots). They can divert to the Marshall Islands. The destroyers have to be refueled, and were on December 3 and on December 6, and are good for about a week cruising,or 3 days of combat operations at high speed if need be.

note in the link above the plan was to abandon the destroyers if the refueling was delayed (not literally, just leaving them behind and making the final approach without them, leaving them back with the tankers until they COULD refuel).

(this link talks about the refueling that occurred for Operation Z)
http://www.combinedfleet.com/ToeiT_t.htm

Do not assume that the tanker group in this timeline (8 oilers, plus 4 destroyers) are on the historical track either. Additional destroyers are joining the tankers as well (steaming out bound from Japan)

by the way, here is a short summary of the Alan Zimm book I have referred to a number of times

http://www.historynet.com/pearl-harbor#articles

his book his far more detailed but that is basically his thesis
 
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Mrstrategy said:
so if the pacific fleet was destroyed or could not help them they had no other plans?

Since the plan was to build a entire new battle fleet, including carriers and support ships to make WPO work it was only a inconvience for the Pacific fleet to be destroyed. Look up what new ships were authorized & funded by the Two Ocean Navy legislation, when those ships were laid down, and what was added to the construction before 7 Dec. We could have sunk the Pacific fleet ourselves & still made WPO work.
 
Mrstrategy said:


Since the plan was to build a entire new battle fleet, including carriers and support ships to make WPO work it was only a inconvience for the Pacific fleet to be destroyed. Look up what new ships were authorized & funded by the Two Ocean Navy legislation, when those ships were laid down, and what was added to the construction before 7 Dec. We could have sunk the Pacific fleet ourselves & still made WPO work.

we even built ships that didn't really have a mission, like the Alaska class large cruiser
 
Anyone here know enough about ships to estimate how far the fuel could be extended were the speed reduced below ten knots?

The 'sweet spot' for efficient cruising was at around 12-14kt. So, 12kt-14kt was roughly the best for cruising. Consumption generally was something like -

12kt - 1x
18kt - 2x
24kt - 4x
30kt 9x

So, if a ship is moving at 12kt it burns one fuel "unit". At 18kt it burns two units, at 24kt four units, at 30kt - 9 units. If a unit is 10 tons, then its fuel efficiency for travel is
12kt - 1.2nm per ton.
30kt - .3 nm per ton

That's rough. Different ships have different stats. The easiest method is to just use the USN data and pick similar ships -

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/Fuel/

Kaga = Lexington
Soryu = CVL22
Zuikaku = Essex.

That sort of thing. Here's the data for BB55

Speed Radius Endurance Fuel rate
Mean displacement 46,700 tons

Knots Engine miles Days Bbl./day
13 / 861 (1)
14 / 974 (1.13)
16 / 1,274 (1.48)
18 / 1,670 (1.94)
20 / 2,217 (2.57)
24 / 4,227 (4.90)
26 / 6,685 (7.76)

So, at 18kt it's buring 1.94 times the fuel as at 13kt and at 24kt, 4.9 times as much. Fully fueled its says 50,433 bbl for BB55 = 58 days at 13kt (=18000nm) or 7.5 days at 26kt (=4680nm). These are v. good stats - on an IJN BB I'd expect about 22-25 days fuel at cruising speed kind of thing, (7000-8000nm).
 
would set up a interesting corundum, do you take the fuel from the light units to get the larger units closer to home or do you sacrifice some of the older larger units to keep modern small units that could get home?

It's 2,000 miles from Hawaii to the Marshall Islands. That says, under no circumstances, can, let's say, Nagumo allow his capital ship fuel to get under 50% fuel load on his carriers; when he reaches 55%, he withdraws. He starts at 100% (topped up, thanks to barreled oil and better than expected weather), or about 24 days cruising. The run in at 24kt for 24hours takes out 4 days cruising, leaving him at 80%, (20 days cruising). He can probably go about 12 hours at 18kt (night), 12 hours at 24kt (day) for any days near Oahu, or 3 days cruising per day of operations. So, by the evening of December 8th, Nagumo is either withdrawing upon recovery of aircraft at dusk at that moment, or he can stick around and do one more morning strike if he feels circumstances warrant. In either case, he needs to be to the west of Hawaii, closer to the Marshalls. If he bugs out on the evening of December 8th, then he's spent 1.5 days in operations (6am December 7th to 6pm December 8th), or 4.5 cruising days. 24-4-4.5 = 15.5 cruising days remaining. At 6am on the 9th he's about 500nm away from Oahu in the direction of the Marshalls (12 hours at 24kt plus is 200nm distance he's maintaining), with about 1,500 nm to go and 11.5 cruising days of fuel - he's fine, and it doesn't matter if Superman blew up his tanker train.

If he sticks around for one more crack on the morning of the 9th, when he withdraws (around noon), he's done 2.5 days near Oahu, so and is down to about 13 cruising days with 1,800nm to go (5 days away). A bit riskier, right? He'll want his tanker train in position for refuelling as he withdraws - this might be a factor on whether he splits on the evening of the 8th or not.

For the tankers, call it about 150 tons transferred per hour per tanker in good weather, with 8 tankers, or 1200 tons per hour. In lousy weather, anywhere from 0 tons to 150 tons per hour. So what does this mean? It means, if he's relying on the tankers, he wants his tanker train out of the crappy weather, more to the south, out of B-17 range of Oahu so at least 600nm west of Oahu. Now, Johnston is a complication (it's right near where he wants to refuel, so guess what? He'll plan on doing an air raid on that base to neutralize it).

As for the destroyers, these were intended to be refuelled from the capital ships when necessary.
 
Thanks for the excellent data. The fly in the ointment is any additional speed or maneuvering to deal with air/surface/submarine attacks begins to burn fuel as well as potentially moving you in the "wrong" direction when the battle is over. Cripples will be sacrificed, and fuel drained to the extent possible. However some of the ships that will try and get away may have suffered damage to fuel storage which becomes problematic.
 
It's 2,000 miles from Hawaii to the Marshall Islands. That says, under no circumstances, can, let's say, Nagumo allow his capital ship fuel to get under 50% fuel load on his carriers; when he reaches 55%, he withdraws. He starts at 100% (topped up, thanks to barreled oil and better than expected weather), or about 24 days cruising. The run in at 24kt for 24hours takes out 4 days cruising, leaving him at 80%, (20 days cruising). He can probably go about 12 hours at 18kt (night), 12 hours at 24kt (day) for any days near Oahu, or 3 days cruising per day of operations. So, by the evening of December 8th, Nagumo is either withdrawing upon recovery of aircraft at dusk at that moment, or he can stick around and do one more morning strike if he feels circumstances warrant. In either case, he needs to be to the west of Hawaii, closer to the Marshalls. If he bugs out on the evening of December 8th, then he's spent 1.5 days in operations (6am December 7th to 6pm December 8th), or 4.5 cruising days. 24-4-4.5 = 15.5 cruising days remaining. At 6am on the 9th he's about 500nm away from Oahu in the direction of the Marshalls (12 hours at 24kt plus is 200nm distance he's maintaining), with about 1,500 nm to go and 11.5 cruising days of fuel - he's fine, and it doesn't matter if Superman blew up his tanker train.

If he sticks around for one more crack on the morning of the 9th, when he withdraws (around noon), he's done 2.5 days near Oahu, so and is down to about 13 cruising days with 1,800nm to go (5 days away). A bit riskier, right? He'll want his tanker train in position for refuelling as he withdraws - this might be a factor on whether he splits on the evening of the 8th or not.

For the tankers, call it about 150 tons transferred per hour per tanker in good weather, with 8 tankers, or 1200 tons per hour. In lousy weather, anywhere from 0 tons to 150 tons per hour. So what does this mean? It means, if he's relying on the tankers, he wants his tanker train out of the crappy weather, more to the south, out of B-17 range of Oahu so at least 600nm west of Oahu. Now, Johnston is a complication (it's right near where he wants to refuel, so guess what? He'll plan on doing an air raid on that base to neutralize it).

As for the destroyers, these were intended to be refuelled from the capital ships when necessary.

I think the calculations are reasonable, if perhaps a little optimistic. OTL, once they cleared the area, the fleet cruised at 10kts and it is fairly consistent with doctrine that IJN in 1941 would plan on maintaining a 25-30% fuel reserve (like everybody else). Stability becomes a real issue at lower fuel levels. As a result, from a planning perspective the 24-day cruising range (at 12-14kts, available after re-fueling on 6 December) really starts at something like 18 days. As a result, they would believe (again maintaining "normal reserves") that they would compete their Day 1 operations with 13-14 "cruising days" remaining (not 20). Another planning factor is that nobody has a clean bottom for long, so consumption planning is biased toward higher reserve levels. Naval officers would generally consider anything less than 30% as literally "running on fumes". There is a real, practical reason why the tanks are sounded on a regular basis (each ship burns at a different rate for a variety of reasons causing actual consumption to frequently exceed planned consumption). The escorts are always a limiting factor due to their "shorter legs".

All that said, I agree that he can run for the Marshall Islands with the fuel he has on board (which was his contingency plan IIRC), but believe he is taking a significant risk (more than a "bit riskier") by staying until the 9th. Even if he can in fact squeeze 14 days of "cruising" fuel out of what he has in his tanks, I do not believe Nagumo's staff will think he has that much time/range in the face of operational requirements and reserves. As a result, IMHO he does not stay longer than required to launch a third strike (assuming he has enough aircraft to make that feasible), if he decides to launch a third strike at all. IMHO, a lot depends on when KB comes into contact with Halsey.

I do not believe he has a tanker group in position to actually help during a run to the Marshalls. The first replenishment group must have limited supply (I have never seen any information on remaining supply after 6 December), and the tankers are limited to 10kts. No way they can catch Nagumo running southwest at 14-24kts (from their position northeast of Midway). The second replenishment group has not yet left the home islands (IIRC) and has the same speed limitations. They could go to replenish him in the Marshalls, but I do not believe there is any chance they can meet him East of the Marshalls due to the same speed constraints (even if they depart on 8 December). So, as stated, action against the first or second replenishment group has no impact on Nagumo's ability to reach the Marshalls.

However, if Nagumo decides to follow the original return track (well north and east of Midway) instead of heading southwest toward the Marshalls, he could get into real trouble real fast.
 
I think the calculations are reasonable, if perhaps a little optimistic. OTL, once they cleared the area, the fleet cruised at 10kts and it is fairly consistent with doctrine that IJN in 1941 would plan on maintaining a 25-30% fuel reserve (like everybody else). Stability becomes a real issue at lower fuel levels. As a result, from a planning perspective the 24-day cruising range (at 12-14kts, available after re-fueling on 6 December) really starts at something like 18 days. As a result, they would believe (again maintaining "normal reserves") that they would compete their Day 1 operations with 13-14 "cruising days" remaining (not 20).

KB's cruising radius varied from ship to ship, as low as 5,000nm for destroyers (18 cruising days) to 10,000nm for three of the carriers and the battleships, (34 cruising days). The lighter carriers were about 26 cruising days, (Soryu and Hiryu burned all their remaining barrelled oil during the run to Pearl Harbor. Akagi, the third carrier with extra storage, will have done so as well. On the 24 hour run in, 3 carriers (Akagi, Soryu, Hiryu) and 2 heavy cruisers (Tone, Chikuma) had ranges issue. The other five capital ships, (Kaga, Shokaku, Zuikaku, Hiei, Kirishima) did not. Of the shorter legged ships, the 2nd division carried 1,400 tons of barrelled oil and the Akagi 1450 and the cruisers 580 tons each. This was sufficient, in all cases, to cover the consumption for the run into Hawaii. (For example, on the link use Saratoga CV3 for Akagi. At 24kt she burns 1100 tons, which is 300 tons less than Akagi's barrelled reserve).

Another planning factor is that nobody has a clean bottom for long, so consumption planning is biased toward higher reserve levels. Naval officers would generally consider anything less than 30% as literally "running on fumes". There is a real, practical reason why the tanks are sounded on a regular basis (each ship burns at a different rate for a variety of reasons causing actual consumption to frequently exceed planned consumption). The escorts are always a limiting factor due to their "shorter legs".

Fouling was a non-factor AFAIK - all the ships had been recently prepped for the operation and it was cold waters. Escorts were to be refuelled from capital ships if necessary, and the capital ships had been trained for the task.

All that said, I agree that he can run for the Marshall Islands with the fuel he has on board (which was his contingency plan IIRC), but believe he is taking a significant risk (more than a "bit riskier") by staying until the 9th. Even if he can in fact squeeze 14 days of "cruising" fuel out of what he has in his tanks, I do not believe Nagumo's staff will think he has that much time/range in the face of operational requirements and reserves.

Certainly should be fine for ops to the end of the 8th. A withdrawal to the Marshalls after that assumes no extended assault, but this was also an option - Nagumo would have to rendezvous with the tanker train and spend a day or two refuelling, then go back in.

As a result, IMHO he does not stay longer than required to launch a third strike (assuming he has enough aircraft to make that feasible), if he decides to launch a third strike at all. IMHO, a lot depends on when KB comes into contact with Halsey.

Nagumo's plan of attack suggests he had no intention of conducting a 3rd raid regardless of the results. Had he been interested in doing so, he would have ordered an adequate scouting plan for the morning of the battle.

I do not believe he has a tanker group in position to actually help during a run to the Marshalls.

The two major options for post battle were a withdrawal to the north, in which case the tanker train would be in position well to the north of Hawaii and not set up for a Marshalls withdrawal, or to pass Oahu to the west while continuing the assault, in which case the tankers would come down for a refuelling, depart to the north, and KB would pass down the west side of Oahu.

The first replenishment group must have limited supply (I have never seen any information on remaining supply after 6 December),

That's easy - KB had storage of about 45,000 tons and a range of something about 7,000nm. Getting to Hawaii was half of 45,000 tons, or about 23,000 tons. The eight tankers of the two groups had 80,000 tons storage so should have had about 57,000 tons remaining at the point Nagumo detached for the run south.

and the tankers are limited to 10kts.

16-19.5kt on the tankers selected for the mission.

No way they can catch Nagumo running southwest at 14-24kts (from their position northeast of Midway).

At 16kt the tankers could move 384 nm per day. I doubt Nagumo would want to bring them through the line between Midway and Hawaii unescorted by carriers though.

The second replenishment group has not yet left the home islands (IIRC) and has the same speed limitations.

No and no. The second group departed with the rest of the force on November 26th, and this group had speeds of 19.5kt for all three, (Toho, Toei, Nippon Maru).
 

Driftless

Donor
Thanks for the excellent data. The fly in the ointment is any additional speed or maneuvering to deal with air/surface/submarine attacks begins to burn fuel as well as potentially moving you in the "wrong" direction when the battle is over. Cripples will be sacrificed, and fuel drained to the extent possible. However some of the ships that will try and get away may have suffered damage to fuel storage which becomes problematic.

Plus, you likely aren't transferring fuel while clipping along very fast, especially with cripples. The problems compound themselves.
 
It's 2,000 miles from Hawaii to the Marshall Islands. That says, under no circumstances, can, let's say, Nagumo allow his capital ship fuel to get under 50% fuel load on his carriers; when he reaches 55%, he withdraws. He starts at 100% (topped up, thanks to barreled oil and better than expected weather), or about 24 days cruising. The run in at 24kt for 24hours takes out 4 days cruising, leaving him at 80%, (20 days cruising). He can probably go about 12 hours at 18kt (night), 12 hours at 24kt (day) for any days near Oahu, or 3 days cruising per day of operations. So, by the evening of December 8th, Nagumo is either withdrawing upon recovery of aircraft at dusk at that moment, or he can stick around and do one more morning strike if he feels circumstances warrant. In either case, he needs to be to the west of Hawaii, closer to the Marshalls. If he bugs out on the evening of December 8th, then he's spent 1.5 days in operations (6am December 7th to 6pm December 8th), or 4.5 cruising days. 24-4-4.5 = 15.5 cruising days remaining. At 6am on the 9th he's about 500nm away from Oahu in the direction of the Marshalls (12 hours at 24kt plus is 200nm distance he's maintaining), with about 1,500 nm to go and 11.5 cruising days of fuel - he's fine, and it doesn't matter if Superman blew up his tanker train.

If he sticks around for one more crack on the morning of the 9th, when he withdraws (around noon), he's done 2.5 days near Oahu, so and is down to about 13 cruising days with 1,800nm to go (5 days away). A bit riskier, right? He'll want his tanker train in position for refuelling as he withdraws - this might be a factor on whether he splits on the evening of the 8th or not.

For the tankers, call it about 150 tons transferred per hour per tanker in good weather, with 8 tankers, or 1200 tons per hour. In lousy weather, anywhere from 0 tons to 150 tons per hour. So what does this mean? It means, if he's relying on the tankers, he wants his tanker train out of the crappy weather, more to the south, out of B-17 range of Oahu so at least 600nm west of Oahu. Now, Johnston is a complication (it's right near where he wants to refuel, so guess what? He'll plan on doing an air raid on that base to neutralize it).

As for the destroyers, these were intended to be refuelled from the capital ships when necessary.


At this time did the Japanese refuel alongside underway, or trailing over the stern?
 
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