The Avro Arrow...

MacCaulay

Banned
For those of you who may not know, the Avro Arrow was a Canadian designed and built delta-winged interceptor that was rolled out in the mid-1950s.
After the start of it's test flight program, with a half dozen prototypes already flying and the production line spooling up, two Soviet moles were found to be in the lower ranks of the many design teams involved. The aircraft's production order from the Royal Canadian Air Force was cancelled, the prototypes destroyed, and all the papers burned.
The Avro company had developed not only the aircraft itself, but also it's Iriquois engines, and was possessed of a great amount of expertise built up not only from this aircraft but from it's previous work on the Canadair F-86 Sabre, which the USAF had used in the Korean War.

When the Canadian government shut the project down, a lot of the design team (now jobless) left to join the only other game in town for people with their design know-how: the US Space Program.
Ex-Arrow designers had their names on the Gemini, Apollo, Skylab, and Space Shuttle programs.
Others went across the Atlantic and ended up working with Hawker-Siddeley to help design the Concorde.

So...to all those Canadians and Canadiaphiles (I did a tour in the PPCLI, but I'm still an American), what would have happened if the Canadian government had let Avro and the RCAF keep the Arrow?
 

Sachyriel

Banned
Not much, the Arrow II might be better than the F-15 Eagle, the Avro company would design things today at par with the F-22 Raptor but Canada won't be buying them...
 
If it's any interest, I'm saving the Arrow in my Democratic President Reagan timeline.


Saving it requires a shift away from missiles towards planes. The Soviets have a lot invested in missiles but they might well decide to make an XB-70 analogue in which case the Arrow comes in more useful.

More importantly saving the Arrow gives Canada a major boost on the whole aerospace arena. As mmmeee0 notes one could easily see Avro become a key element in the American military-industrial complex, and at the least it would mean more Canadian focus on defence dollars by dint of having Avro on their soil and able to lobby for it.

However that would probably mean Canadian government money, not so much in the way or orders.
 
Anything to get cancelled non-US planes in service is good, the Arrow is high on that long and sad list.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
The Arrow is well loved here on the Board.

You may want to do a search for some of the MANY other threads on the aircraft that look at different aspects of the aircraft and its potential impact.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
One thing that popped into my head was the fact that Avro had a history of jet design that didn't just stick in the military realm.
They'd worked on a passenger liner in the late-40s, but the design and prototype were considered to radical, even though they passed flight trials and were declared safe by the Canadian, American, and British safety boards.

All we know for sure about production orders in the case of the RCAF was that they were asking for 5 Mk.1 flight testers, and 35 more Mk.2s that would basically be production aircraft, slated to use the AIM-4 Falcon.
We can surmise a few points, especially from the RAF interest in the jet, which proceeded much further down the path towards procurement than the USAF: the Royal Air Force felt that as a stop gap measure for it's interceptor needs, it should order 140 Arrows.

When the RCAF ordered the CF-100 Canuck, which the Arrow would presumably have replaced in it's interceptor role, it surmised a need for 124 examples of the final Mk.3 version.

My thesis is that, had the Canadian government had the foresight to let the RCAF procure the CF-105, there is a very good chance that Avro could have found itself with enough venture capital to not only keep developing jet interceptors (that seemed to be the niche that that company was going; Canadair was building fighters and trainers), in very well could have kept it's lead in the passenger liner market.
While it certainly couldn't have kept up with the jumbojets of Boeing, it certainly could have found a niche similiar to today's Embraer, CASA, and others in that vein.

In the intervening years, economic necessity would have probably forced it to either partner with or acquire Canadair or Bombardier, perhaps forming a company we will call...AvroCan.
But even if you were to suppose that those two companies were able to sustain the same size they are today (Bombardier operates the NATO flying school at CFB Goose Lake), then you are still looking at a company which would have the ability to independently design, build, and test aircraft and possibly AAMs and AGMs.

Thoughts?
 
If it survived, my guess would have:

1961 - The Avro CF-105 Arrow flies in full form, ready for combat, The Royal Canadian Air Force orders 120 of them for usage as part of their obligations under NATO. First squadron of them is rushed into service in October 1962 as a result of the concerns over the Cuban Missile Crisis.

1963-64 - The CF-104 Starfighters that equipped the RCAF are cycled out of the service, as the far more stable and faster Arrow works better. The high-performance of the Arrow, and the awesome PS-13 Iroquois engine, attracts the attention of several other forces, most notably the Royal Air Force. The RAF tests a trio of CF-105s in late summer 1964 and figures they can work very well as a fighter and air-defense weapon. As the RAF is about to deploy its own TSR-2 Strike fighter, the RAF is keen on supporting the Commonwealth projects in order to gain favor for BAC and keep its projects from being canned by Whitehall.

1964 - The USAF, which has many figuring that the high-altitude bombers now don't make so much sense due to the growing effectiveness of Russian surface to air missiles, cans the XB-70 project in favor of the B-1 project. This doesn't slow the Russians however, as their Mach 3 bomber project goes ahead. Avro is surprised to see the Valkyrie cancelled, but several Avro engineers have an idea for the big bomber - an air-defense weapon. Avro loves this idea, and asks the US to test the XB-70 in October 1964. The USAF allows this and gives a XB-70 to Avro, and Avro gets to work.

Avro rapidly realizes that the XB-70 is truly capable of going huge speeds for long distances. The XB-70, as it is what the Russians are likely to be building towards. This forces the design work on the next generation Arrow to aim very high in terms of speed and altitude.

1965 - The American F-4 Phantom is said by the USAF as being its answer to the Arrow, but it clear early on that the F-4 lacks in maneuverability and range compared to the Arrow.

The RAF, highly impressed with their tests of the CF-105, place an order for 175 aircraft to defend British Airspace. The government, seeing that the British military's new projects are almost exclusively creating projects for Britain and its commonwealth, interfere less with them.

The RAF's decision to buy the Arrow as a primary interceptor stuns the USAF and creates interest in the Arrow from several sources worldwide, notably from India, Australia, Japan, Argentina and South Africa.

The Soviets don't ignore the high-performance interceptor. The US' development of the XB-70 Valkyrie has the Soviets working on a new bomber, so the Arrow's main purpose is still there.

1966 - Australia tests several aircraft for a strike role, and Avro develops the CF-105C in response, an Arrow capable of using all kinds of weapons, instead of just being a dedicated interceptor. Australia likes this idea, and the competition for the prize goes down to the CF-105C and the F-111.

The F-111 has a heavier payload, but the CF-105C has a higher speed and far greater maneuverability. The F-111C's turbofan engines provide better fuel economy than the relatively thirsty PS-13 Iroquois turbojets, but the turbojets were more reliable.

In the end Australia buys both - they buy 24 F-111C and 78 CF-105Cs. The RCAF, noticing that missiles are taking over from bombers, also orders the CF-105C upgrades to their Arrows. The RCAF also wants new turbofan engines for the Arrow, and Orenda engines gets to work on this.

1967 - Avro offers to buy the XB-70 they loaned from the USAF. The USAF, with no use for it, sells it. The RCAF is stunned that Avro does this - but they have an idea which they pitch to the RCAF - a high-altitude aircraft which would be used to control airspace. The idea was that the XB-70 would be loaded up with powerful radars and air-to-air missiles, and then be used to drop missiles on enemy fighters. Avro pitches this as being a combination air defense system with the Avro, giving Canada the best air defense network on the planet.

Prime Minister Pearson is impressed, and goes for it. At the same time, the US comes up with the ideal missiles for the task - the AIM-54 Phoenix.

The RCAF Arrows soon go in for upgrades to the CF-105C standard, and the British versions are soon slated to do the same. South Africa requests the purchase of 36 CF-105Cs, and negotiations begin. Justice Minister Pierre Trudeau is adamantly against the sale of Arrows to South Africa, disgusted with apartheid.

1968 - Orenda shows off the PS-14 Haida engine, the first turbofan from the firm. The PS-14 Haida makes 19,200 lbs of thrust, 26,500 lbs with the afterburner. It says that Canada could afford to add these to the Arrow, which Canada agrees to.

The unification of the Canadian Forces turns the RCAF into the Canadian Forces Air Command (CFAC). Over 18 months of bitter negotiations had resulted in the Navy and Air Force keeping their own traditions, though the unifications saw a number of people depart the forces.

Pierre Trudeau becomes Prime Minister in April. One of his first actions with regards to defense is kill the sale of the Arrows to South Africa, an act which enrages Avro. Trudeau was an adamant supporter of non-proliferation of military hardware. The upgrades to the CFAC and RAF fighters goes ahead, of course.

1969 - Trudeau begins talking of reducing the size of the Canadian Forces, an act which enrages both Canadair and Avro, as well as the military. Avro gets out in the media and talks badly about these plans, saying that "Canada has always been prepared to defend itself and its people. Trudeau believes we should let the Americans do this for us. We are Canadians, not Americans, Mr. Trudeau." Trudeau's plans to shrink the Canadian military grew to become contraversial.

The decision by Trudeau to scrap HMCS Bonaventure (CVL-22) became one of the contraversial issues of the year - if only because the Navy went into full-blown revolt over it. Trudeau, with his usual brashness, told the Navy to bow down and accept it, and he also famously commented "they all vote for that bastard Stanfield anyways" to one of his aides. The fights spread across the Canadian Forces, leading to a loss of many of its best officers. Defense Minister paul Hellyer, who was already bitter towards Trudeau, also fought him in Commons, until Trudeau famously sacked him in July 1969.

Stanfield used the ruckus against Trudeau. "It is clear that the Prime Minister has little appreciation for the worth of the Canadian Forces. They are a provider of not just defense, but also jobs, image and prestige. This is Mr. Trudeau's loss, but not that of Canadians." Trudeau had only been partially right with his assumption that the military tended to vote Conservative, but after his insulting them, he became entirely right.

Avro, feeling threatened by the fights in Ottawa, began to work with Bombardier, and the two companies began to expand its operations to other operations outside of aircraft. The two companies jointly rescued strugging Rail equipment builder American Locomotive Company in 1969, and the two companies began plans to enter the jet airliner business. Avro's massive works at Toronto's Pearson International Airport also was responsible for the maintenance of Air Canada aircraft there. Orenda Aircraft sustained itself by rebuilding and maintaining the

Trudeau did allow some military projects, including the riftting of the PS-14 Haida engines to the RCAF Arrow fleet, which now numbered 116 aircraft. He also allowed Avro to continue development of the XB-70 Air Defense project.

1970 - The defining event of this year was the FLQ crisis, which caused Trudeau to draw a line in the sand when he ordered the forces to enforce martial law in Montreal. Trudeau after this event is said to have somewhat more respect for the Canadian Forces. Included in the operation was a number of CF-105CH aircraft based at Dorval Airport, though these did little more than provide a symbol.

Avro, with prodding for many sources (including the CFAC), begins developing a successor to the CF-105. This, like many designs of the era, will use twin tails and twin engines, expected to be the PS-14 Haida. But Orenda also has plans on the table to build a brand-new engine, the so-named PS-15 Mohawk. Plans begin being laid out. New technology, largely acquired for airliner design, begins being used to develop their aircraft. Avro's extensive experience is soon bolstered by many ex-Canadian Forces personnel that Trudeau had alienated.

1971-72 - Designs evolve rapidly on paper, with the first designs focusing on a semi-delta high-wing design with twin tails. On the advice of many of the pilots working for the company, later designs keep the wing design and add canards in the front. Swing wings like the US F-14 and F-111 were considered but rejected for complexity reasons. This new aircraft would not carry all of its armament in the weapon bay, as most Arrows did.

Data about the F-15 was not exactly unknown by this point, and the Americans weren't all that unhappy to feed info about it to Avro. The F-15 was soon clearly being designed to be a dedicated air superiority fighter, whereas the Arrow's successor would be a multi-role aircraft.......

OOC: More later. :cool:
 
1966 is too late for anything to be sold to Australia, the Mirage entered service in 1964 and the F111 was selected over the TSR2 in 1963. On top of that the Arrow is a first tier fighter and Australia has only ever bought 2nd tier fighters; Sabre 1955, Mirage 1964, Hornet 1984, JSF sometime in the next century,
 
1966 is too late for anything to be sold to Australia, the Mirage entered service in 1964 and the F111 was selected over the TSR2 in 1963. On top of that the Arrow is a first tier fighter and Australia has only ever bought 2nd tier fighters; Sabre 1955, Mirage 1964, Hornet 1984, JSF sometime in the next century,

Then change Australia to Belgium. The Belgian Air Force was seriously considering buy a couple od squadrons of Arrows when the program was terminated.
 
Rather than build new engines, given the number of sales to the UK I could easily see a Mk2 Arrow with new or adapted R-R engines - probably a cheaper and more successful result.
 
1966 is too late for anything to be sold to Australia, the Mirage entered service in 1964 and the F111 was selected over the TSR2 in 1963. On top of that the Arrow is a first tier fighter and Australia has only ever bought 2nd tier fighters; Sabre 1955, Mirage 1964, Hornet 1984, JSF sometime in the next century,

I have a simple remedy for that - the RAAF paid lots of attention to what the RAF thought at the time, and its easy enough to say that the F-111 hit additional delays in its development. The F-111 program hit so many snags its hard to believe it wasn't canned - especially since the TSR.2 project by all accounts went fairly smoothly.

Oh, BTW, the Hornet was very much first tier in 1984. The first USN Hornets entered service in January 1983. Australia IIRC is getting the JSF in 2014 or so, which means they will be among the first generation F-35 buyers.
 
Rather than build new engines, given the number of sales to the UK I could easily see a Mk2 Arrow with new or adapted R-R engines - probably a cheaper and more successful result.

Perhaps, but since Orenda did such a masterful job on the PS-13 Iroquois and had already developed a turbofan (the PS-14 Haida), there is little point in giving away that knowledge.
 
Get the UK and AVRO to work together on the sucessor of the Arrow.Like BAe and AVRo working together like the Eurofighter,but in this case a Commonfighter.
 
OOC: Part 2 - The Arrow's Successor is Revealed

1973 -
The first designs of the Arrow's successor reach the media at a presentation in May 1973. The high-winged, semi-delta design is intriguing to many, but Avro says it is a logical evolution of what they learned over the years with the CF-105 Arrow. The tails is fitted with twin tails, but they are long, relatively short ones. The design calls for the PS-15 Mohawk engines to be fitted, but Avro points out when showcasing the design that it can be fitted with other engines. The first four prototypes are on the way, and are expected to fly in early 1974.

(OOC: Think F-18 tail with F-15-style engine humps and an enlarged Saab Gripen fuselage, if you want to picture it.)

At the same time, Avro announces the name of this new fighter - the CF-24 Valkyrie. Avro says that they know about that the name is the same as the cancelled US bomber.

The United States is impressed with the design, especially as its own teen fighters - F-14, F-15 and F-16 are on the way. This new aircraft is the size of an Eagle, but is designed as a multi-role aircraft like the F-16. The US' own fighter mafia is impressed, saying that the new Arrow is exactly what the US needs for a strike fighter.

The appearance comes just as the energy crisis hits, but this plus Canadair's expertise in airliners is enough to convince Stanfield that they need to help this new fighter come to fruition. The CFAC in late 1973 says that they will buy the Valkyrie to replace the old CF-105CH Arrow.

1974 - The first flight of the CF-24 Valkyrie is in August, and the first flight is run on Pratt and Whitney TF30s as the PS-15 Mohawk is not yet ready to fly. First results are impressive - through back channels, the Avro guys think this plane is good enough to run with the F-15 Eagle or even beat it. This info does make its to the United States, which the US seriously considers asking about purchasing it.

The Valkyrie doesn't take long to make an impact - Australia, facing seemingly interminable delays with their F-111s, asks Avro if the Valkyrie will be sold, solely to get General Dynamics to get Australia's F-111s done. The tactic works - the first Australian F-111s are ferried to Australia in April 1974, and all are there by July. General Dynamics builds three extra units for Australia, just to try and keep the RAAF happy.

The Valkyrie is in fact very, very good. The aircraft's rate of climb is nearly 60,000 feet per minute on the TF30s, and the aircraft's maneuverability is way beyond that of the CF-105. The new radars and electronics of the CF-24 are way beyond the technology of even upgraded CF-105s.

Meanwhile, Canada begins coming out of the deep 1973-74 recession, and Stanfield begins to show that Canada does have high-tech industries and can develop world-class products. The Canadian Ministry of Defense politely declines a US offer to have the CF-24 powered by the Pratt and Whitney F100 engines of the F-15 Eagle. Electronics are also being developed, but Canada does want to integrate it with all of their missile and electronic systems.

1975 - March 1975 see the CF-24 fly with its intended PS-15 engines. These new turbofans are easily the beater of the American Pratt and Whitney F100, producing an amazing 20,750 lbs of thrust and 28,400 lbs of thrust with the afterburner. Orenda had done their usual impeccable job, and the results were obvious.

The CF-24/PS-15 combination was easily the best fighter plane in the world in 1975. Capable of an awesome climb rate of 64,000 feet per minute and a top speed of Mach 2.7, with acceleration to burn and flying characteristics to kill for, the CFAC began hounding Avro to get the CF-24 ready to fly. Tle electronics were the large holdup, but both sides agreed that the first CF-24s would be service ready by early 1977.

This announcement came as the Royal Air Force announced that they were looking at a new long-range interceptor aircraft - the game had moved on from the Arrow, and they wanted to improve the breed. At the same time, Japan announced that they were going to begin a program to find a new standard air superiority fighter. With these on the horizon, Avro told both Britain and Japan that they would bid on both with the CF-24.

1976 - Production begins on the CF-24 in May, and the first production examples fly from Avro's Brampton, Ontario plant on August 16, 1976. The rollout is conducted with more than a little fanfare, especially as the first planes are shown off at the Toronto Air Show at the CNE in 1976. The Valkyrie, along with a number of USAF F-15 Eagles, are the stars of the show. Four prototype CF-24s are part of the international celebrations in New York of the American Bicentennial, along with a number of aircraft of the USAF.

The plane's first ready-to-fight flight comes at a perfect time for the Canadian Government, who was being hounded by the opposition, questioning whether the planes were worth the cost paid for them, which was quite high. Prime Minister Robert Stanfield supported it by noting that every penny used in its development and construction went to a Canadian company, and that Liberals might want to remember that when they blast it. A strong supporter of it is the NDP, noting that the aircraft and the Canadian Aerospace Industry is a major provider of highly-paid aerospace jobs in Canada. Their only beef is that they feel that the 84 aircraft being ordered is not enough.

Stanfield and the Conservative Government were however very good times for the Canadian Forces. Stanfield had promised to improve the Canadian Forces' Maritime Command's presitige, and he made good on that promise in 1976. Canada, in a move which stunned many, bought two decommissioned Essex-class Aircraft Carriers, USS Hancock and USS Oriskany, and sent both to Saint John Shipbuilding in Saint John, New Brunswick, for refitting. The carriers were rebuilt using larger angled deck, steel flight decks, new gas turbine engines, a higher hangar roof, new catapults, and many other modifications. This was in addition to the seven Iroquois-class destroyers, which all commissioned between 1972 and 1976.

1977 - On February 15, 1977, Prime Minister Stanfield declares that CF-24 Valkyrie operational within the Canadian Forces Air Command, and their first foreign deployment was to the first Red Flag Exercises, where the CF-24s dominated the proceedings, outperforming the USAF F-15 Eagles, European Panavia Tornado and Mirage V aircraft, as well as Australia's F-111s and Israeli Kfir fighters.

Stanfield, fresh from re-election, shows off in July 1977 his plans for the Canadian Forces for the years to come. Knowing of Soviet aggression and Canada's critical role in NATO, Stanfield says it is critical that Canada maintain a force capable of not only defending Canada but also providing a strong force to assist Europe in a NATO-Warsaw Pact war. He announces that the two carriers, to be named HMCS Overlord and HMCS Vimy Ridge, after the two famous battles Canadian Forces engaged in during the World Wars. He also wants Canada to have a state of the art army and air force and also commented that he wants Canada to be able to build as much as possible itself.

Canada, in response to the buying of the carriers, makes a request for naval fighters. Britain, who operates two large supercarriers (OOC: The two CVA-01s) is the logical place to start, as the Canadian Navy is unsure their Essex class carriers can operate the heavy F-4 Phantom. The French offer the Dassault Super Etendard.

The operation of USS Lexington however proved that the big F-14 Tomcat could be operated, but with the costs of the carrier high, Canada eliminated the F-14, instead going with the US Navy's A-7 Corsair II as the carriers' primary aircraft. Canada also bought 6 E-2C Hawkeye aircraft for use off the carrier.

1979
- HMCS Overlord's (the former USS Oriskany) refit is completed. The carrier appeared out of dry dock for testing on March 25, 1979, sailing to Halifax first and then out for training. Vimy Ridge was completed on August 17, 1979, and also made Halifax on September 2.

It was about this time that the Iranian revolution happened. Now unable to get pieces for Iran's fleet of F-14 Tomcat, Iran offered them to Western countries for peanuts. Canada bought the whole load, all 78 aircraft. The F-14s reached Canada in June 1980. Canadian CF-14s would gain the electronics from the CF-24 and the PS-15 Orenda engines before they entered service in May 1981.

1981 - the CF-24s gain help from Canada's F-14 Tomcats, bought at a fire-sale price from Iran. A number of these operate off of the two Canadian Forces carriers, but most are assigned to the CFAC.

1982 - Orenda engines makes an unsolicited offer to the US Navy to refit all US Navy F-14 Tomcat fighters with the PS-15 Mohawk engines, commenting on many claims that the F-14/TF30 combination was a poor combination.

To the surprise of many, the US says yes, and Orenda begins work on the 900 engines the US needs, as well as maintaining the CFAC's Valkyrie and Tomcat fighters.
 
A bit of info here:

1982 Canadian Forces Fighter Aircraft:

84 Avro CF-24 Valkyrie
74 Grumman CF-14 Tomcat (from Iran 1979-80, fitted with some CF-24 electronics and PS-15 Mohawk engines, keeping AWG-9 radar)
68 Avro CF-105E Arrow
58 McDonnell Douglas CFA-4H Skyhawk (using Canadian electronics)
44 Canadair CF-5A Freedom Fighter (reserved for training purposes)

The Tomcats here are being used partly as carrier aircraft, and partly as support for the CF-24. The Arrows were all deployed to Europe as part of the NATO commitment, with a bunch of Arrows being refurbished for the purpose, in order to replace the CF-104s, which had an astoundingly high loss rate. (Over half the CF-104s built crashed during their operational lives.) The Arrows deployed to Europe have a bunch of modifications, including outside hardpoints to carry more fuel and ammunition.

The Skyhawks operate off of the two carriers. A few Tomcats are on each one, but the size of them makes it hard to have all of them work off of the smaller carriers. (It is possible though - part of the 600-ship Navy plan was putting the freshest Essex-class carriers back into active service. That never worked because of the costs of doing so. F-14s would have operated off of these carriers.)
 

MacCaulay

Banned
Wow. I left for a few hours and Mann went to town. Even had quotes from Her Majesty's Honourable Opposition and everything. I'm very impressed!

After further analysis, I can confirm that there was a version proposed that would have enlarged windows in the cockpit and a cannon in the nose for dogfighting. Apparently the weapons load on the Arrow itself was enormous, larger than a Lancaster.

I never even thought of this thing competing with the Phantom, but it's almost believable. See, I can't believe the USAF choosing a Canadian aircraft over an American one, however I do like the idea of other smaller NATO countries choosing it, especially if the Canadians were willing to play ball with them on industrial offsets and basing rights.

Mann, I think you've come up with a very logical chain of events, there. It sounds like something you've had knocking around your head or your hard drive for a while.
And one thing that I think plays very logically into allowing the Arrow program to move forward is the involvement of either the RAF, the RAAF, or the USAF.

The Canadian procurement system has always had a problem: too many cooks in the kitchen. And with another country there to cook the main course, it's good when Parliament only has to microwave the entree.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
So, I wrote a few short stories, and possibly one or two might end up here. But I started thinking about how the Canadian government does have a tendency to half-ass it's procurement when it can.

So I got to thinking about what would happen at around the twenty year mark, when the Arrow would begin to probably need a replacement. Something with a bit more maneuverability, and something with a bit more pizzazz. And that's when it popped into my head.

It's a little ASB, but the Canadian Forces could simply introduce a new short-range AAM, say, similar to the Sidewinder, or the South African Khukri.

Then, to make up for any lack maneuverability, they simply add an off-boresite targeting reticle for the helmet that it plugged to the AAM, much the same as the Soviets did with the AA-11 Archer on the MiG-29C.

Well? What do you think?
 
There is only so much you can do with 1950s technology. With smaller aircraft you can get around the maneuverability problem, but the Arrow was a dedicated interceptor designed to hunt bombers. By the late 1970s, it would be badly outclassed by the likes of the Mirage F1, the American Teen Series fighters and shortly after the Sukhoi Su-27 and MiG-29. It would need to be replaced.
 
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